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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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How can the trinity be one God?
- Thread starter Captain Falcon
- Start date
Butch5
Member
Take your time. I too have been busy. No I'm not a JW.
Our course He isn’t.
Jesus is the only begotten Son.
Jesus the Son, created all things.
- For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17
It is the Son who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth.
- But to the Son He says:..You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
8 But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10
Which is the work of YHWH who says these things through Zechariah -
The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1
YHWH goes on to say through Zechariah-
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; Zechariah 12:10
then they will look on Me whom they pierced.
JLB
Brother, Paul is quoting Joel.
Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call H7121on the name H8034 of the LORD H3068 shall be delivered: H4422 for in mount H2022 Zion H6726 and in Jerusalem H3389 shall be deliverance, H6413 as the LORD H3068 hath said, H559 and in the remnant H8300 whom the LORD H3068 shall call. H7121
stovebolts
Member
Thank you.
I said earlier that calling Jesus YHVH was confusing. I wish you would have probed deeper to understand why.
Above, you say that the Son is not the Father. And we agree on this.
Deu 32:6 - Is this how you repay the LORD, you foolish, unwise people? Is he not your father, your creator? He has made you and established you.
The above verse establishes that YHVH is the Father.
Can you start to see where calling Jesus YHVH is confusing when scripture shows us that the Father is called YHVH in scripture, and the son is called Jesus?
When you say Jesus is YHVH, I hear it as you saying the Son is the Father. But as you correctly said earlier, of course they are not.
In the above verse from Joel, the "me" would denote a oneness. It is the same oneness Jesus describes in John. That's how I understand it anyway. ( in light of the scriptures which say YHVH is the Father)
In latent terms, you've heard it said that what you have done to my brother, you have done to me. It's the same idea.
Do you understand what I am saying here?
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No, I disagree.
This verse does not say that God the Father is the creator.
This verse says the YHWH is the creator of mankind, which we know from the New Testament is clearly Jesus.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3
again
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17
again
14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
Isaiah 43:14-15
again
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13
The first and last is a direct reference to YHWH.
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6
The Lord Jesus created Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed the Spirit of Life into him.
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7
The Lord walked with Adam and also appeared to Abraham, and made covenant with Him.
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2
- Almighty God is who Jesus claimed to be.
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:7-8
Finally, it is YHWH, the Lord who is coming with the saints from heaven, on that blessed Day, as Zechariah says -
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5
Jesus is the Lord, YHWH, who is coming with the saints on that Day, for He is the Lord of Lords.
JLB
No sir.
The Bible teaches us that Jesus Christ is YHWH, Lord, the Creator and only begotten Son of God the Father.
I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
Isaiah 43:15
again
Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” John 1:49
He is the king of Kings and the Lord of lord’s.
For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. Deuteronomy 10:17
JLB
stovebolts
Member
C'mon Stove,
Im not being hard.
This is a good, fruitful discussion, and we are going to arrive at a common understanding before it's over.
I like where this is heading, and it's good we are talking.
You are certainly not my enemy.
The Father is YHWH, the Most High God who is seated upon the throne, and is worshipped day and night.
That is His place.
The name of Jesus, the Name above all Names represents the Godhead: Father, Word, and Holy Spirit.
No one in the old testament had seen God the Father.
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 1:18
They were seeing the Son of God, who was also called the Angel of the Lord.
Three different scriptures referring to three different manifestations of the Angel of the Lord being referred to as God.
And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6
and again
21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
and again
11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13
Look at the threefold progression of understanding in this passage -
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6
- the Angel of the Lord
- the Lord
- God
- I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
- Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
JLB
JLB,
I think you are missing part of what Stovebolts is trying to show. Semantics, yes, but I think an important one.
You posted the following quote. Notice how the spelling is different in what you wrote (Lord) versus the reference you provided (LORD). In most translations where I've seen this difference it is because LORD is used in place of YHWH whereas Lord is used in place of Adonai. There certainly may be more that I am not catching.
I think you are missing part of what Stovebolts is trying to show. Semantics, yes, but I think an important one.
You posted the following quote. Notice how the spelling is different in what you wrote (Lord) versus the reference you provided (LORD). In most translations where I've seen this difference it is because LORD is used in place of YHWH whereas Lord is used in place of Adonai. There certainly may be more that I am not catching.
stovebolts
Member
Thank you JLB
The reason I asked you to soften your tone was to try and get you to walk with me, and not simply talk at me.
I am trying to understand how you view the scriptures which is why I am asking questions and voicing my assumptions.
I am still confused with some of your theology. If I am reading your last post correctly, it seems to me that the names Jesus and YHVH are interchangeable for you at times.
Earlier, i stated that YHVH was the Father, and showed Deutoronmy 32:6 where YHVH is called the Father. This is echoed in Exodus 4:22-23.
You replied that YHVH was not the creator, so Jesus was YHVH, but then you say YHVH is the Father. It's almost like your using YHVH as a title?
Work with me here. I'm trying to make since of how you view things. Do you see YHVH more as an interchangeable title than a name?
The reason I asked you to soften your tone was to try and get you to walk with me, and not simply talk at me.
I am trying to understand how you view the scriptures which is why I am asking questions and voicing my assumptions.
I am still confused with some of your theology. If I am reading your last post correctly, it seems to me that the names Jesus and YHVH are interchangeable for you at times.
Earlier, i stated that YHVH was the Father, and showed Deutoronmy 32:6 where YHVH is called the Father. This is echoed in Exodus 4:22-23.
You replied that YHVH was not the creator, so Jesus was YHVH, but then you say YHVH is the Father. It's almost like your using YHVH as a title?
Work with me here. I'm trying to make since of how you view things. Do you see YHVH more as an interchangeable title than a name?
Brother, Paul is quoting Joel.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved. Joel 2:32
Ok. I’ll do better.
stovebolts
Member
Thank you. Sometimes we have to be told how other people hear us. Like yourself, I have my thoughts, but I also understand that misunderstandings can cause confusion.
I have great respect for you, and I have learned much from you over the years. But on this one, I am honestly confused by how it seems you interchange the names of Jesus and YHVH. You seem to keep the name Jesus as Son, but depending where, YHVH is found, it can mean God the Father or Jesus the Son.
Do you see where you confuse me?
Fair enough.
One thing I will add now, before we continue.
Jesus is the name that represents the Godhead; The Elohim.
All the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily.
I see the creation process this way.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [a]was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. Genesis 1:1-3
The Godhead, Elohim, The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, created the heavens and the earth.
It was God the Father’s will that there was light.
The Word, Jesus, expressed the will of the Father by saying... let there be light.
Light came into being, was manifested, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Same thing when Jesus became flesh.
Jesus only said what He heard His Father say, and did what He saw His Father doing.
The Father sent Him to cast out devils.
Jesus spoke to the unclean spirits.
These spirits were driven out by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus called the Holy Spirit, “the finger of God” when he warned them about calling the Spirit by which He cast out demons with,
Beelzebub.
JLB
Yes, I have had to learn, that just because I don’t think I’m coming across hard, it doesn’t matter, if I love you, I should be concerned how you yourself perceive how I’m coming across.
JLB
stovebolts
Member
That's good stuff. Thank you for sharing.
Just so you know, my theology looks like this.
John 17. Before the foundation of the world, the Father (YHVH - name) was loving His Son (Jesus - name).
1 John 4:8 b. GOD (Elohiem - title) is Love.
Prior to creation, God (Elohiem - title) is love. This love is shared between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This love is stirred into action through the Spirit.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [a]was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. Genesis 1:1-3
We see the Spirit hovering over the void, and it stirs the Father to utter, and the Word is shared as light. That is, goodness (love) has displaced darkness. John 1:4-5.
Edit to add: love is outward, and its nature is to share through relationships. Trinity is relational, so it is also community. God (Elohiem - community) creates because Elohiem's desire is to share love, to share self. Elohiem stretches outward, and is made known as light as the Son displaces the darkness... the nothingness, and fills it with joy and hope.
God creates humanity to share this love as an act of love, and He placed them in Eden, where all is in perfect harmony. Outside of Eden lays darkness and chaos. Humanity's role is to expand Eden, and bring light where darkness exists.
And it was Very Good.
For me, this is foundational to how I understand Trinity.
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stovebolts
Member
JLB,
I understand that in Rom 10:13 Paul refers to Joel 2:32 (ESV), "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Rom 10:13).
He didn't use tou theou (of the god) or tou iesou (of the jesus), but kuriou (of lord).
In fact, the LXX (Septuagint - Greek translation of the OT before Christ came in flesh) translated Joel 2:32 [3:5 in LXX] as:
So the translators in the second and third centuries before Christ when the LXX was translated, chose kuriou (of lord) for the Hebrew YHWH (Yahweh).
All I'm trying to say is that making kurios (NT) equivalent to Jehovah (OT) in the NT is not all that simple as the word for God in the NT is not 'jehovah' but theos.
See 'Lord' (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia).
Oz
Edisons Wolf
Member
I'll just say my own piece here rather than quote anyone who are in their own discussion.
Jesus was the son of God and the son of man. He was God with us, as he was named by God prior to Mary agreeing to carry God's son, his self in flesh, created in her womb.
Emmanuel, Jesus, Yeshua, was the only begotten son of God. The meaning of beget, when the angel gained Mary's permission that the Holy Spirit of God would beget upon her a son, tells us that.
Anything else is contrary to the truth of the gospels themselves.
Jesus was the son of God and the son of man. He was God with us, as he was named by God prior to Mary agreeing to carry God's son, his self in flesh, created in her womb.
Emmanuel, Jesus, Yeshua, was the only begotten son of God. The meaning of beget, when the angel gained Mary's permission that the Holy Spirit of God would beget upon her a son, tells us that.
Anything else is contrary to the truth of the gospels themselves.
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