How can the trinity be one God?

[billybalke]

I see the Son as having the same name as the Father.

The name above all names.

Look up the Hebrew name for Joshua, and you will see the four letters within it.


The definition for Jesus and Joshua is the same, which is why the translators had trouble distinguishing between the two.

One example of this is found in Hebrews.


For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV


For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hebrews 4:8 KJV


The is no question that Jesus created all things, which plainly shows He is YHWH, the Son of God, Who as the firstborn would be named after the Father.

• Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11 NIV

And in Isa.9:6 Jesus is called '' The everlasting Father".


JLB

 

[billybalke]

I see the Son as having the same name as the Father.

The name above all names.

Look up the Hebrew name for Joshua, and you will see the four letters within it.


The definition for Jesus and Joshua is the same, which is why the translators had trouble distinguishing between the two.

One example of this is found in Hebrews.


For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV


For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hebrews 4:8 KJV


The is no question that Jesus created all things, which plainly shows He is YHWH, the Son of God, Who as the firstborn would be named after the Father.

• Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11 NIV




JLB

And in Isa.9:6 Jesus is called "the Everlasting Father".

 

[JLB]

And in Isa.9:6 Jesus is called "the Everlasting Father".

He shall be called Everlasting Father.

 

[stovebolts]

I see the Son as having the same name as the Father.

The name above all names.

Look up the Hebrew name for Joshua, and you will see the four letters within it.


The definition for Jesus and Joshua is the same, which is why the translators had trouble distinguishing between the two.

One example of this is found in Hebrews.


For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV


For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hebrews 4:8 KJV


The is no question that Jesus created all things, which plainly shows He is YHWH, the Son of God, Who as the firstborn would be named after the Father.

• Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11 NIV




JLB

Sure, I understand where you are coming from, and it makes since to me.
However, it does cause some confusion. Not that there is a perfect rationale, they are all a bit confusing the deeper one goes lol!

As you know, Hebrew letters have dimension unlike our english letters. The four letters of God the Fathers name represented as YHVH has a specific meaning as opposed to El Shaddai etc, so it really isnt a wonder the letters in Gods name are also found in Joshua. I did not know that, nor have I verified it, but it's cool non the less.

Anyway, its confusing to say Jesus is YHVH. We can say El Shaddai is YHVH and understanding these names to mean God, but to say Jesus is YHVH introduces many difficulties. For instance, why would Jesus pray to himself? If Jesus was YHVH, why did only YHVH know the date and time of the end. But Jesus didnt?

The idea of trinity is hard enough to wrap our minds around, but if we said Jesus was YHVH, then how do we say God is love? Did God simply love himself before creation, or does he need creation to express his love?

 

[Butch5]

It has everything to do with our discussion. You have said that according to the present active indicative in I Jn.4:2 that Jesus was still in the flesh. However, I Cor.15:50 reads: "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;" Yes indeed, Jesus was in heaven at the time I John was written but not in the flesh. I probably will have a bit to say about the present active indicative in I Jn.4 later.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW AND CALVINIST

I didn't say anything about the present active indicative. I spoke of the perfect tense. The Greek perfect verb tense indicates a past action whose results continue to the present. In this case the present was when John wrote his letter. This indicates that Jesus was still in the flesh when John wrote his letter. I'm not sure why you posted the passage from 1 Cor 15. Do you believe it somehow cancels what John said? You still have to reconcile what John said. Now you have to reconcile both passages together. However, the kingdom of God is not in Heaven so it really doesn't bear on the subject.

Even so, if we look at the passage you posted in context we can see what Paul means. In context Paul is contrasting corruption and incorruption. The earthly body and the resurrected body. When he says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, he's speaking of the present state, the corrupted state that we are now in. Only in the resurrected state can one inherit the kingdom. However, it will be physical beings that inherit the kingdom. When Jesus ascended into Heaven it was in the flesh and the angels said He will return in like manner.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
(Acts 1:9-11 NKJ)

We know that Jesus was flesh when He was resurrected because He said so.

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (Lk. 24:36-39 NKJ)

There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that Jesus is not in the flesh at present.

 

[billybalke]

He shall be called Everlasting Father.

I saw no need to quote the whole verse.

 

[Butch5]

In the very first verse of the very first book of the Bible it reads: "In the beginning God created--". God here in Hebrew is Elohim and is plural.

Are you familiar with the "Majestic Plural"?

 

[JLB]

Anyway, its confusing to say Jesus is YHVH.

Yes, since 4 consonants can not be pronounced.

That’s why the Bible uses the word Lord.

Jesus is Lord.

Paul shows us that Jesus is YHWH, in His letter to the Romans.

He quotes Joel who references YHWH.

• whoever calls on the name of the Lord (YHWH) shall be saved.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13


The name of the Lord, YHWH Is Jesus, the only name under heaven by which men can be saved.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I saw no need to quote the whole verse.

I was just saying, “shall be” refers to the future.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, since 4 consonants can not be pronounced.

That’s why the Bible uses the word Lord.

Jesus is Lord.

Paul shows us that Jesus is YHWH, in His letter to the Romans.
He quotes Joel who references YHWH.

• whoever calls on the name of the Lord (YHWH) shall be saved....

The name of the Lord, YHWH Is Jesus, the only name under heaven by which men can be saved.

JLB,

The Greek word for 'Lord' in Rom 10:13 is not YHWH, which is Hebrew. It's based on kurios - κυρίου (genitive case), which means 'of Lord'.

What is the meaning of 'Lord'? In contemporary terms, it means boss, head, chief.

See: 'What does it mean to call Jesus "Lord"' (Charles Stanley)?

Oz

 

[MarkT]

Thanks for sharing your perspective, however the scriptures say this -

19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. John 2:19-21

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.”

That's the way Peter saw it. It's the way I see it. "The God of our fathers raised Jesus"

Galatians 1:1
Paul an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—

God the Father raised him from the dead.

That's the way Paul saw it and it's the way I see it.

 

[Edisons Wolf]

I'm not understanding how the trinity can be one God. How can three divine persons with three divine minds and three divine wills be one God? The Bible says that the Messiah must fear God. Jesus demonstrated this when he said the Father is greater than he is. How does that fit in with trinitarian theology? Thank you.

The idea or notion of the Trinity did not occur in teachings until approximately the 3rd century.
There is one God. He is not three divine minds and three divine wills and three divine persons. He is one. Hear oh Israel our God our God is one.

44:6Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
That is from Isaiah

1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

No one comes to God but through the anointed. (Christos)

Many Trinitarians will insist there are three and use Jesus referring to his returning to Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. That's symbolic not literal. Jesus was God. “All power has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.” (Matthew 28:18) “Your right hand, O LORD, has become glorious in power; Your right hand, O LORD, has dashed the enemy in pieces.” (Exodus 15:6)

When God says there are no other , no God, He is the first and the last, the alpha and the omega, believe God. Not what was the creation of Tertullian.
Three god's is polytheism, paganism. Not monotheism.

 

[stovebolts]

Anyway, its confusing to say Jesus is YHVH.

Yes, since 4 consonants can not be pronounced.

That’s why the Bible uses the word Lord for YHVH.

Jesus is Lord.

Hi JLB,
Sorry, I don't think your tracking. It's confusing to say Jesus is YHVH because you have God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. It is these three that comprise the idea of Trinity. God the Father is not God the Son, is not God the Holy Spirit. Yet all three are ONE. This is the basic idea of Trinity the way I understand it.

I respect you much, but I'm pretty sure the Bible uses the word LORD to pronounce YHVH, and Lord to pronounce other meanings.

If we go back to Genesis, we see LORD is the translation for YHVH (Strongs # 3068) Genesis 22:16
Genesis 23:6 translates Lord as YNDA (Strongs # 113) which means lord, master, owner.
It is the Greek equivalent

In the greek, both LORD and Lord are kurios (Strongs # 2962). It's used in Matthew 1:20 to denote YHVH and again in Romans 10:13 which you cited. However, in Matthew 14:28 Peter calls Jesus Lord (kurios), and I'm pretty sure he isn't thinking Jesus is YHVH.

As far as the consonants, the High Priest would say YHVH once a year at Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement).

Paul shows us that Jesus is YHWH, in His letter to the Romans.

I can see how you would see it that way, but I look at it a bit different.

He quotes Joel who references YHWH.

whoever calls on the name of the Lord (YHWH) shall be saved.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

The name of the Lord, YHWH Is Jesus, the only name under heaven by which men can be saved.

JLB

Your reading it as outline below correct?
--> The Lord Jesus (NT)
--> The LORD your God (OT)

 

[stovebolts]

Are you familiar with the "Majestic Plural"?

I'm not, I'd like to hear your take on it.
Thanks!

 

[billybalke]

I didn't say anything about the present active indicative. I spoke of the perfect tense. The Greek perfect verb tense indicates a past action whose results continue to the present. In this case the present was when John wrote his letter. This indicates that Jesus was still in the flesh when John wrote his letter. I'm not sure why you posted the passage from 1 Cor 15. Do you believe it somehow cancels what John said? You still have to reconcile what John said. Now you have to reconcile both passages together. However, the kingdom of God is not in Heaven so it really doesn't bear on the subject.

Even so, if we look at the passage you posted in context we can see what Paul means. In context Paul is contrasting corruption and incorruption. The earthly body and the resurrected body. When he says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, he's speaking of the present state, the corrupted state that we are now in. Only in the resurrected state can one inherit the kingdom. However, it will be physical beings that inherit the kingdom. When Jesus ascended into Heaven it was in the flesh and the angels said He will return in like manner.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
(Acts 1:9-11 NKJ)

We know that Jesus was flesh when He was resurrected because He said so.

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (Lk. 24:36-39 NKJ)

There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that Jesus is not in the flesh at present.

Am running late, promise to get to you as soon as I can. I have much to say.

 

[billybalke]

Are you familiar with the "Majestic Plural"?

Yes. Are you a J.W.? As stated a moment ago I'm running behind and promise to get back to you as soon as I can. I have somewhat to say.

 

[Selah]

I'm not, I'd like to hear your take on it.
Thanks!

Until they respond if I man. Majestic plural is terminology used in the plural by monarchs who in that inclusive language are imparting "We", when speaking first person so as to encompass the totality of their dominion. In other wording, the majestic "we" used by say queen Elizabeth of England is meant to impart she speaks for all within the realm of her kingdom.
I have seen reference to this information site before. I'm adding their article to further my information. This is not meant to impart disrespect to Butch and their answer in future.

What is the majestic plural, and how is it used in the Bible?

Question: "What is the majestic plural, and how is it used in the Bible?"

Answer: The majestic plural, also called the royal plural, is the use of a plural word (such as the pronoun weor us) to refer to a single person. As a type of nosism, the majestic plural emphasizes something or honors someone in a stylistic way. Basically, when a member of royalty, referring to himself, says, “We” instead of “I,” he is using the majestic plural. For example, Queen Victoria, upon hearing a tasteless joke, is said to have replied, “We are not amused.” Link to further reading http://www.gotquestions.org/majestic-plural.html

 

[Butch5]

I'm not, I'd like to hear your take on it.
Thanks!

Basically it's a literary device where a plural pronoun such a we or us is used to of a single individual. It's usually someone in a high office like a sovereign. If you Google Majestic Plural or Royal We you'll get quite a few articles on it.

 

[JLB]

The Greek word for 'Lord' in Rom 10:13 is not YHWH, which is Hebrew. It's based on kurios - κυρίου (genitive case), which means 'of Lord'.

Of course.

However Paul said is quoting from Joel, as my post states.

Whoever calls on the name of YHWH shall be saved.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.

And your point is?