[__ Science __ ] How Could the Ark Have Survived the Stresses of the Flood?

[Barbarian]

Noah. God didn't leave much for him the the way of instructions.

WRONG.

No, you're wrong. It was pretty sketchy. This is what He instructed by your account:

Then the Lord said to Noah, “Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this generation. 2 You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; and two of the animals that are not clean, a male and his female; 3 also of the birds of the sky, seven pairs, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth.

Not much, um? You forgot about his instructions for the ark, but that was also pretty sketchy:
14 Make thee an ark of timber planks: thou shalt make little rooms in the ark, and thou shalt pitch it within and without. 15 And thus shalt thou make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits: the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. 16 Thou shalt make a window in the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish the top of it: and the door of the ark thou shalt set in the side: with lower, middle chambers, and third stories shalt thou make it.

And that's it.

Since God didn't say the flood was global, that's not really an issue if you believe God.

There's more than one way to say something, you know.

But of course, He didn't say it was worldwide, either. In fact, He avoided using the word for "world", only using "land."

He doesn't say it killed every human in the world but the 8 aboard the Ark.

Show the verse that backs that claim.

Show you something that isn't there? C'mon.

GEN 7:23
"So He wiped out every living thing that was upon the face of the land

"Land", not "world." Thank you.

Local floods and planet-wide-styled language don't fit. Learn that and it'll be easier.

Since God avoided "planet-styled" language, we are left with the conclusion that it was a regional flood, as He says.
He says the land was flooded, not the whole world. That's man's addition to His word.

 

[Barbarian]

Ohmygoodness, evil lotion is not speciation!!!!

Evolution is a change in allele frequency in a population over time. Speciation is evolution. Technically, it's called "macroevolution."

Youve already admitted that you THINK that "higher taxa evolve".

Answers in Genesis admits so. They just don't want to call it "evolution."

how is EVIL LOTION simply"ALLELES CHANGE IN POP'S" OR "SPECIATION",, when you APPLY IT to KIND and ABOVE?

Well, since "kind" is a religious belief, not a taxon, give us a testable definition of "kind" and we'll see what it gives us. What's your testable definition?

 

[Barbarian]

But lots of people interpret His word wrong. Hence flat Earthers, YE creationists, polygenism, etc.

Oh?
So you have the "correct interpretation"??

The Earth is not flat. Observably so. Evolution, as you now realize, is observed constantly. And Adam and Eve were the ancestors of all people living today.

What don't you understand about these facts?

 

[Barbarian]

Boom!
One big factor in belief in bioevo is to appease the world, who hates the YEC (Genesis trusting) position because they know that it opens a great wide door to trusting the Bible.

YEC is man-trusting, not Genesis-trusting.

 

[Barbarian]

BUT THE SCARIEST OF ALL - 2 PETER 3:6!!!!
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%203&version=NASB

6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water.

You've been fooled by a translation. You see, Peter used κόσμος, which in Roman times, meant "the known area." For example:
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass, that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that the whole world should be enrolled.

Same word, κόσμος, which meant the Roman Empire, not the entire world.

 

[Barbarian]

Oh? My examples were BEAK - WING - Fixed Femur.
Not air sacs.

Ceratopsian dinosaurs (and others) had beaks. Archaopteryx and many other dinosaurs had wings. Birds have movable femurs. Seems like it should be easy to find a difference, but it's not.

 

[Barbarian]

Depending on its context, אֶרֶץ can be translated as ground, earth, land, piece of ground, territory, country, region, or underworld.1 It's a very common word. This is not to say it can be translated as any of these in any context, the context (esp. specific phrases in which it's used) guides how it should be understood.

So it could be anything at all. But you're convinced it's what you wish it to be.

 

[Barbarian]

Bird and dino are different family. So one never gave rise to another.

I know you want to believe that, but since you can't find one feature in birds that isn't in other dinosaurs...

 

[NoahK]

As I understand it it wasn't a "trip". It was a way to start over because of man's total rejection of the God Who created them. Except for Noah

 

[KV-44-v1]

I understand that scholars just discovered that it wasn't Noah who did all that; it was another guy with the same name.

Oh yeah, Barbarian isn't writing that post, someone with your exact name is. LOL.

It is kind of an allegory for creation, isn't it? Never thought of it that way. I just thought that evolution was the way He gave living populations the ability to adapt.

Indeed, you seem to be interpreting these "observed evolutions" too literally.

It's good to hear YE creationist admit it.

You missed the second part:

In fact they [allegories] arent supposed to be presented as facts at all.
So WHY is Genesis presented as FACT and not ALLEGORY?????

I guess that's why it wasn't written for 5 year olds.

It was written for all.
2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work.
Tell me, what do the green-colored words say?

But the way that Hebrews wrote about God and His works is very different from they way modern people write on message boards.

So i guess the Ten Commandments are not historical fact, but an open ended allegory, from YOUR view.

You know, your allegorical re-interpretations have ZERO Biblical clarification.
TRUE Biblical allegories, however, DO have such clarification - see Jesus' parables.
And besides, this doesnt mean that Hebrews spoke in riddles. Assuming the literal is in pretty much every language.
IF AN ALLEGORY HAS NO CLARIFICATION, HOW IS IT ANY DIFFERENT FROM A RIDDLE/ENIGMA/PUZZLE??

How effective do you think it is to have ALLEGORY be your prime method of communication?? What a funny belief.

Mark 4:10 And when he was alone, the twelve that were with him asked him the parable. 11 And he said to them: To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without, all things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand: lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Well, you sure are taking THIS one literally!!
By your logic, even THAT verse is an allegory!

The sensible conclusion, when you take Darwin's Glasses off, is that the verse is referring to the KINGDOM OF GOD. Heaven. Or mabye a special place in Heaven?

AND YOU TOO THIS OUTTA CONTEXT! CAUGHT RED HANDED

Here's some context
Again He began to teach by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat on the sea and sat down; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land. 2And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching, 3“Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil. 6And when the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundred times as much.” 9And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, [a]let him hear.”

10As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve disciples, began asking Him about the parables. 11And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but for those who are outside, everything comes in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING THEY MAY SEE, AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR, AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND IT WOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.”

And He *said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables? 14The sower sows the word. 15These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. 16And in a similar way these are the ones sown with seed on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17and yet they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution occurs because of the word, immediately they fall away. 18And others are the ones sown with seed among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, 19but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of wealth, and the desires for other things enter and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20And those are the ones sown with seed on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundred times as much.”

21And He was saying to them, “A lamp is not brought to be put under a basket, or under a bed, is it? Is it not brought to be put on the lampstand? 22For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light. 23If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.” 24And He was saying to them, “Take care what you listen to. By your standard of measure it will be measured to you; and more will be given you besides. 25For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

Parable of the Seed

26And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; 27and he goes to bed at night and gets up daily, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know. 28The soil produces crops by itself; first the stalk, then the head, then the mature grain in the head. 29Now when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”

Parable of the Mustard Seed

30And He was saying, “How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it? 31It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is the smallest of all the seeds that are upon the soil, 32yet when it is sown, it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants, and forms large branches, with the result that THE BIRDS OF THE SKY can NEST UNDER its shade.”

 

[Barbarian]

TRUE Biblical allegories, however, DO have such clarification - see Jesus' parables.

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

In this way, the Creation story is understood by those realizing it's meaning, but some will try to make it a literal history.

 

[Barbarian]

I understand that scholars just discovered that it wasn't Noah who did all that; it was another guy with the same name.

Oh yeah, Barbarian isn't writing that post, someone with your exact name is. LOL.

Forgot my Warning For The Humor-Impaired. (WFTH-I). My bad.

 

[miamited]

Creationists could settle this quickly by building an Ark, loading up the requisite people and animals, and then setting it adrift in the sea with no aid from the outside, for a year.

I think I know why they'll never do that.

Hey Barbarian

Or it could be that believers know that those who don't believe aren't likely to believe if we show them anything of the sort. They'll just say that there are other problems that would prevent it from having happened, if we were to show you that as far as the size of the craft, it was perfectly suited for its intended purpose.

And a believer doesn't need to prove every detail of the Scriptures. We accept by faith that God cannot lie and that He has told us the truth about everything that His Scriptures reveal to us. If God's word says that Noah built an ark and took a passel full of animals on it to continue the living creatures upon the earth; if God's word says that the ark floated on the water for as much as a year, then I believe it. There's nothing more to be said to convince me. God said it! I believe it!

If you're having trouble reconciling the ability of God to have done what He claims in His word to have done, then the problem is between your ears... not mine. I simply believe God's word. My being able to figure out 'how' He did anything that He claims to have done throughout the Scriptures isn't anything for me to concern myself with. I mean it might make a wonderful study where ideas as to 'how' it might have happened can be bantered about. But for me, if God said it! I believe it!

In the account of the flood God gives us a lot of descriptors that would absolutely deny that it was any kind of local flood. I mean honestly, how anyone can understand how a local flood could have stayed at flood level for even a month is beyond me. There is a natural law that says that water seeks to level itself. As far as I know, we are not given any indication among the descriptors of the flood account that would infer that, that natural law was suspended for a time or something. So, the idea that some local area stayed flooded for such an extended period of time is ludicrous when we know that there is no place upon the earth where such a thing could happen because there are always valleys and plains where flood water will run to and equalize and run off into the sea if it is only over a local area. Maybe you could flood an area for a few days, but 6 months. I would think someone had been smoking' the peyote to imagine such a thing.

Since you're all into explaining 'how' God does things. Give it a go. How did some small area of the earth, even though such an area may be thousands of square miles, hold flood waters up for 6 months? Or is it your contention that the event didn't really happen but is some metaphor for us to understand some teaching of God?

I also believe that God did make the sun stand still for an extended period of time over the land of Israel, which would have made for a longer night on the other side of the world. I believe that God did make the sun or the earth move in a manner that made a shadow move back 10 steps. I believe all those things because God's word says that He did. I don't need to prove that I can figure out 'how' He did it. Because I also know that God is God and there is no way that I can ever understand the power of what He can do within this created realm that He made about 6,000 years ago.

Now, you're free to tell me that I'm an idiot or unlearned or whatever you need to say about my explanation that makes your understanding right, but again, I believe that if God said it, that God did it!

God bless,
Ted

 

[KV-44-v1]

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

In this way, the Creation story is understood by those realizing it's meaning, but some will try to make it a literal history.

Please read the Biblical text that i colored GREEN.
There is not a shred of evidence that the verses you cite even remotely refer to Genesis.

 

[KV-44-v1]

You've been fooled by a translation. You see, Peter used κόσμος, which in Roman times, meant "the known area." For example:
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass, that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that the whole world should be enrolled.

Same word, κόσμος, which meant the Roman Empire, not the entire world.

So the roman empire was flooded? When? Where is the archeological evidence for this?


Remember, the pagans believed and invented the idea of evolution, but Christians of the past believed Creation. and the Bible reveals YEC truth.

Why is the debate called CREATION VS EVOLUTION and not Creation vs Creation or evolution vs evolution??

 

[KV-44-v1]

Hey Barbarian

Or it could be that believers know that those who don't believe aren't likely to believe if we show them anything of the sort. They'll just say that there are other problems that would prevent it from having happened, if we were to show you that as far as the size of the craft, it was perfectly suited for its intended purpose.

And a believer doesn't need to prove every detail of the Scriptures. We accept by faith that God cannot lie and that He has told us the truth about everything that His Scriptures reveal to us. If God's word says that Noah built an ark and took a passel full of animals on it to continue the living creatures upon the earth; if God's word says that the ark floated on the water for as much as a year, then I believe it. There's nothing more to be said to convince me. God said it! I believe it!

If you're having trouble reconciling the ability of God to have done what He claims in His word to have done, then the problem is between your ears... not mine. I simply believe God's word. My being able to figure out 'how' He did anything that He claims to have done throughout the Scriptures isn't anything for me to concern myself with. I mean it might make a wonderful study where ideas as to 'how' it might have happened can be bantered about. But for me, if God said it! I believe it!

In the account of the flood God gives us a lot of descriptors that would absolutely deny that it was any kind of local flood. I mean honestly, how anyone can understand how a local flood could have stayed at flood level for even a month is beyond me. There is a natural law that says that water seeks to level itself. As far as I know, we are not given any indication among the descriptors of the flood account that would infer that, that natural law was suspended for a time or something. So, the idea that some local area stayed flooded for such an extended period of time is ludicrous when we know that there is no place upon the earth where such a thing could happen because there are always valleys and plains where flood water will run to and equalize and run off into the sea if it is only over a local area. Maybe you could flood an area for a few days, but 6 months. I would think someone had been smoking' the peyote to imagine such a thing.

Since you're all into explaining 'how' God does things. Give it a go. How did some small area of the earth, even though such an area may be thousands of square miles, hold flood waters up for 6 months? Or is it your contention that the event didn't really happen but is some metaphor for us to understand some teaching of God?

I also believe that God did make the sun stand still for an extended period of time over the land of Israel, which would have made for a longer night on the other side of the world. I believe that God did make the sun or the earth move in a manner that made a shadow move back 10 steps. I believe all those things because God's word says that He did. I don't need to prove that I can figure out 'how' He did it. Because I also know that God is God and there is no way that I can ever understand the power of what He can do within this created realm that He made about 6,000 years ago.

Now, you're free to tell me that I'm an idiot or unlearned or whatever you need to say about my explanation that makes your understanding right, but again, I believe that if God said it, that God did it!

God bless,
Ted

Barbarian

 

[Barbarian]

In the account of the flood God gives us a lot of descriptors that would absolutely deny that it was any kind of local flood. I mean honestly, how anyone can understand how a local flood could have stayed at flood level for even a month is beyond me.

Maybe a lot of it is still there. There was a great regional flood in the Middle East about the right time, based on other Bible chronology. It happened when the Mediterranean Sea broke though to form the Black Sea. It submerged a huge area, drowning communities and covering the mountains that are now submerged under that sea. It's notable that the Ark came to rest in the Mountains of Ararat (not what is today called "Mt. Ararat"). That would be Armenia. On the shores of what is now the Black Sea.

There is a natural law that says that water seeks to level itself. As far as I know, we are not given any indication among the descriptors of the flood account that would infer that, that natural law was suspended for a time or something.

Which is an important point. If all the animals all over the world were packed into the Ark for a year, God would have had to suspend natural laws for a bit to make that work. But as you know, there's no such thing in scripture. And it's a bad idea to add things to scripture.

So, the idea that some local area stayed flooded for such an extended period of time is ludicrous when we know that there is no place upon the earth where such a thing could happen because there are always valleys and plains where flood water will run to and equalize and run off into the sea if it is only over a local area.

We know it happened once. Which is all that is needed.

Or is it your contention that the event didn't really happen but is some metaphor for us to understand some teaching of God?

If there really never was a Good Samaritan, would that make Jesus' parable untrue? It seems the flood was a real event, but even if it's an allegory, it makes no difference at all. Focusing on the mechanics of the flood is to miss the whole point of the narrative.

 

[Barbarian]

You've been fooled by a translation. You see, Peter used κόσμος, which in Roman times, meant "the known area." For example:
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass, that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that the whole world should be enrolled.

Same word, κόσμος, which meant the Roman Empire, not the entire world.

So the roman empire was flooded?

There was no Roman Empire in Noah's time. κόσμος, merely meant something like "Our civilization

Remember, the pagans believed and invented the idea of evolution

They invented the wheel, hydraulics, gears, pharmacology, etc. Don't see a point.

but Christians of the past believed Creation.

We still do. The difference between you and us is, we are willing to accept the way He did it.

Why is the debate called CREATION VS EVOLUTION

Only to YE creationists. For the obvious reasons. Properly , it's "YE creationism vs. science."

 

[Barbarian]

Please read the Biblical text that i colored GREEN.
There is not a shred of evidence that the verses you cite even remotely refer to Genesis.

Doesn't matter. It shows that what is figurative in scripture often has hidden meanings, as Jesus affirmed. Your salvation doesn't depend on knowing all of it. God tells you what you must do to be saved. Focus on that.

 

[Barbarian]

Now, you're free to tell me that I'm an idiot or unlearned or whatever you need to say about my explanation that makes your understanding right, but again, I believe that if God said it, that God did it!

As in many cases, investigation (re Black Sea formation) indicates that God had it exactly right. It's not a salvation issue, but the evidence suggests that the flood was an actual event, not an allegory.