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How do you feel about Tradition?

How do you feel about tradition.

  • All tradition is bunk.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • There is oral tradition that is not bunk as long as it jives with the Bible which is a tradition.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • All tradition is okay as long as it is not elevated above God's word, the Bible which is not a tradi

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • All tradition is okay as long as it is not elevated above God's word, the Bible which is a tradition

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other - Explain

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3
Klee shay said:
The Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth.

I'm sorry...I mistakenly thought that is what the Holy Spirit was for. I'll have to talk to Jesus about that one.

False dichotomy. Christ guides his Church through the Holy Spirit. He guys a flock. Individually the Holy Spirit guides but it has to become a collective flock, not the one man shows that I see on this board. Everybody saying there Holy Spirit is teaching something different with no real unity. Dividision is the result. Divide and conquer is the game that is being played.

1 Tim 3:15
[15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Blessings
 
Thess,

And you offer nothing different than that of which you reject. Your insistence that 'we', one man show kind of folks, would be in a 'better' position with the Spirit if we did it 'your way'.

The church system that you offer is nothing more than a 'return to the law'. I reject that concept. NO. Not mi gob main. My job is to: FOLLOW CHRIST. You say that this is NOT ENOUGH. Wow!

Just because you have bought into what the churches have offered to teach you, don't get angry or envious of those that haven't. If you would like to benefit from this same 'freedom', all you have to do is accept it. Christ WANTS for you to be free.

And if division of something that is not Spiritual or conducive to the will of God takes place, then, Amen. We are supposed to Love God, and Love our neighbor as our selves. Once you accept this as ALL THE LAW, you will then begin to understand what 'freedom' truly is.

I have experienced much division in your so called churches. Those that are not satisfied with 'their place'. Those that envy others. Those that are only concerned with themselves. Those that attend simply to impress others with their 'worldly' posessions. Is this what you insist that I must take part in in order to 'play my part' in your 'church'? I rather choose 'THE CHURCH' and that is the Body of Christ. NO, not just 'your' bunch of 'wanna be' actors, but those that truly LOVE GOD, AND LOVE THEIR NEIGHBORS AS THEMSELVES. I thank Christ over and over each and every day that He was able to offer me, a lowly worm, this wonderful gift of freedom. And the 'last' thing that I have a desire to do is offer ANY support of ANYTHING that is contrary to the gift that I have been offered.
 
Imagican said:
Thess,

And you offer nothing different than that of which you reject. Your insistence that 'we', one man show kind of folks, would be in a 'better' position with the Spirit if we did it 'your way'.[/quote'

It's not my way. It's Christ's way. He built a Church. Not Churches or individuals who say "look here, here is Christ. Follow him" contradicting eachother and asserting their own theologies and understandings with phrases such as "the Bible says". And you keep telling me I need to do it your way. I guess I am entitled to the same.

The church system that you offer is nothing more than a 'return to the law'. I reject that concept. NO. Not mi gob main. My job is to: FOLLOW CHRIST. You say that this is NOT ENOUGH. Wow!



I love these people who are not Catholic and have no real understanding of Catholicism, telling me what it is. You are quite wrong. Where do I say it is not enough to follow Christ. But the problem is you keep rejecting leaders and authorities. He set them hear for us to guide us and as Jermiah says give us "knowledge and understanding". The Church is the pillar and support of the truth. If you follow Christ's Church you follow him. There is no dichotomy, there is no "Follow Christ" vs. "follow HIS Church". Just as the Isralites followed Moses they were following God. When they complained to Moses, they were complaining to God. When they rebelled against Moses they rebelled against God. Even in Jesus day though the authorities were quite corrupt (and there are these in the Catholic Church today, though listening to you, it seems you think they all are and you are not, I know many good bishops, you judge people whom you do not know self righteously). He says in Matt 23:2 The scribes and the pharasees sit on Moses seat, therefore DO WHATEVER THEY TELL YOU but do not follow their example". In other words they were not living their faith but they had God-given authority. There are many good and faithful bishops and priests in the Catholic Church. The majority are such. We are of course told "there will be wolves among you" and I look out for the wolves.

Just because you have bought into what the churches have offered to teach you, don't get angry or envious of those that haven't. If you would like to benefit from this same 'freedom', all you have to do is accept it. Christ WANTS for you to be free.

Envious? :lol: Your kidding right? You make such claims about a person you do not know. There is no envy in me for those who follow after every wind of doctine based on their own whims or the latest book on pre-trib rapture that comes out.

And if division of something that is not Spiritual or conducive to the will of God takes place, then, Amen. We are supposed to Love God, and Love our neighbor as our selves. Once you accept this as ALL THE LAW, you will then begin to understand what 'freedom' truly is.


Why do you guys post stuff like this like I never read the Bible and this is never preached in the Catholic Church. That they hide such verses from the people. I love ya man. If I didn't I wouldn't be here beating my head agains the wall day after day.

I have experienced much division in your so called churches. Those that are not satisfied with 'their place'. Those that envy others. Those that are only concerned with themselves. Those that attend simply to impress others with their 'worldly' posessions.

This seems rather self righteous and judgemental to me. Are there these sorts who come to Church. Of course there are. There are sinners in the Catholic Church. That is what the grace of Christ is about. Life is a journey by which we heal and grow in our fallen nature toward ultimate perfection, which of course shall not be attained until we reach our heavenly glory. God will chastise them to bring them in line with his teachings and his truth (read heb 12). Why not let him worry about them and you worry about your own sins. Try pulling some planks out of your own eye before you go to Church once. But the division I am talking about is not the sort you speak of. Those who are in these states that you describe need to be fed. Fed with truth. The truth is what shall set them free.


Is this what you insist that I must take part in in order to 'play my part' in your 'church'? I rather choose 'THE CHURCH' and that is the Body of Christ.

More dichotomies. You cannot love men who sin. You cannot stand to sit by sinners in Church next to you. I've got a one ton plank puller for you. I'm looking to upgrade.

NO, not just 'your' bunch of 'wanna be' actors, but those that truly LOVE GOD, AND LOVE THEIR NEIGHBORS AS THEMSELVES.

You do not love if you are always looking down on people as you have expressed in this post.

I thank Christ over and over each and every day that He was able to offer me, a lowly worm, this wonderful gift of freedom. And the 'last' thing that I have a desire to do is offer ANY support of ANYTHING that is contrary to the gift that I have been offered.


I would question whether you are truly free.


Blessings
 
Vic said:
Ooh, I just saw this thread.

Is everybody behaving themselves? :-?


Good. :-D


:angel:

Thanks for stopping in Vic. So far it's been fun. Stay around a while. Blessings :-D
 
Thess,
You write, "Your church tradition has taught you these things", actually I read this historical account from A German historian who doesn't belong to my denomination or tradition. He quotes many historians who have study the first century church. Are you interested in the truth? By the way, I was once a Roman Catholic, now I belong to the catholic (universal) church of Jesus.
Beza
 
Thess,

This thread is about 'tradition'. What I have offered in previous posts are what I believe to be the consequences of 'tradition'. Tradition is 'nothing more' than the ritual which has been associated with religion.

From the time I was able to 'see' things that didn't make any sense being practiced by 'Christians', I have questioned 'where' this teaching or belief 'came' from. The more I have studied, the more I have come to understand that MUCH of what is taught and followed HAS NOTHING to do with the Word except as individuals of the past have interpreted it, or manipulated it OFTEN for their OWN purposes.

I do NOT believe that YOUR church, or ANY other, of our present time, offers the 'tradition' referred to by the apostles. I know that you believe that your denomination was conceived and perpetuated by and through the apostles. I would argue against this teaching.

Much has changed in the two thousand years since Christs' death. Most of it for the worse. Most of the changes that I perceive are mostly ones of 'tradition'. These are most profound in the denominations that insist that 'they' are the 'only' Way. Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc........... They ALL invariably insist that their way, is THE WAY. Funny, but each is majorly different that the others, mainly in 'their tradition'.

I, and note that I can ONLY speak for myself, I believe that there is only ONE truth. I readily acknowledge that 'each' of these denominations teach 'some' of the 'truth', but each also teach things of 'tradition' that are false. The problem then arises as to how we should discern the difference.

Christmas trees, statues, crosses, little fishies, splashing, dunking, sprinkling, unrecognizable babbling, slapping people in the forehead, a dot of oil on the forehead, crossing ones chest with their hand, Sunday worship, Saturday worship, 'trinity', etc, etc, etc................... Much of this is tradition and much of this has very little to do with God. These things were MOSTLY created by man with his never ending NEED for 'outward ritual' and his 'never-ending insistence that 'he' understand EVERYTHING.

Thess, I have much that needs changing in my heart. I am 'just' a man. Fraught with all the flaws and 'self-will' of every other. The difference between myself and others? My name, and even it its shared with others. I have accepted Christ into my heart though, and I know that there is a Creator of all that has named Himself God. But I DON'T believe that there is a man on this planet that can offer me what I need to make these changes within myself. There is ONLY ONE that can offer me this and He ain't in any church. He IS THE CHURCH. And He has offered 'little' tradition'.
Truth, yes, tradition, no.

I love you brother. But my love does not dictate that I am to agree with you regardless of the consequences. I certainly don't want to cause you to 'stumble', but I would not be offering ANY love if I simply encouraged you to follow 'whatever'.

You do know that most of the world is lost. The Bible plainly states that the 'truth' is a very difficult thing to understand and there will be very few who will EVER find it. That's the purpose of my journey; to learn the truth. No amount of man-made tradition is going to 'teach' me this. God IS with us. He is still willing to guide those that submit to His will. Submitting to man's will ain't where it's at.

And trust me Thess, I don't feel any differently about 'Protestant' churches than that of the RCC or whatever. We are told over and over again in the Word that the kingdom, temple, Church is WITHIN, not without. There is NOTHING in the Word that teaches us 'how' to form a 'man-made' church. This strongly indicates to me that we were NOT meant to create that which 'can't' exist. If the temple is within, then God nor Christ 'live' within a man-made structure. There is NO house of God on this planet regardless of how you try to manipulate the meaning of 'church'. God abandoned the structure, and now lives within the hearts of them that believe.
 
beza said:
Thess,
You write, "Your church tradition has taught you these things", actually I read this historical account from A German historian who doesn't belong to my denomination or tradition. He quotes many historians who have study the first century church. Are you interested in the truth? By the way, I was once a Roman Catholic, now I belong to the catholic (universal) church of Jesus.
Beza

Oh well, if he is not associated with anything (and therefore must support that mindset) he is most certainly correct in his account. Or was joseph smith when he came up with the idea that none of the denominations were true and he started a new one. I am very interested in the truth. I study scripture every single day. I pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I simply don't think you have it. Sorry.

I know alot of former roman catholics including those who left because they were fornicators and those who left because they couldn't handle that contraception is a grave moral evil and those who want homosexuality to be okay. The there is a guy named Ron Gedron who has a minestry to get Catholics out of Catholicism through all sorts of distortions of Catholicism. He said he was a faithful Catholic at one point in the one book I read. He also says in another place he was leading a hedonistic lifestyle. :o. There are those also who were not presented the fullness of the faith and so may be in some state of ignorance of it. So I don't judge which camp you are in.

So the bottom line is I don't really care to much about the opinoins of former Catholics. I also tremble for them when I read Heb 6.

[4] For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
[5] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
[6] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

I hope you simply did not understand the faith.

God bless
 
Many Roman Catholics have left the Roman Catholic Church because they have become born of God and have recognized the error in the teachings of the RCC. Many Roman Catholics stay in the Church because it allows them to live a homosexual lifestyle, especially if you are a priest that they do not allow to marry. Those that refuse to leave will suffer the same end as the RCC.

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-5

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Revelation 18:1-8
 
Mr. Solo,

Is all tradition BUNK?

My assement so far. We have one guy who says that truth is in little groups meeting in homes. One guy who says he is the infallible interpruter of truth and one guy who says you can't really know the truth and nobody should be meeting anywhere and all of these guys tell me I have it wrong while contradicting eachother and solo says they're all born again Christians. I call it blown about by every wind of doctrine.
 
Thess,

I am a former 'nothing' other than a former 'lost-soul'. You well know that I promote NO denomination. I have been lead to the understanding through my study of the Bible that I am responsible for my own Salvation and no 'man' can offer this or take it away.

I know God and have managed to grow in our relationship without the influence of churches. If anything, I have been lead through understanding to warn others that worshiping a church is not the Way to God. It's a personal one on one kind of thing that is NOT reliant upon ANYTHING other than Love of our Father and acceptance of His Son.

I find it amusing that you would create such a thread and expect anything other than the response that most have offered. You are obviously a member of a church that relies on MUCH tradition. I understand how difficult it is to learn things and then find that they may not be the 'truth'. I have had many try and convince me that I MUST conform to their beliefs and understandings. I compare my walk to theirs and they seem void of a personal relationship with God. I may be completely wrong. But from my experience, I have gained much through my faith, and it's MINE. Without all the 'ritual' getting in the way. It certainly works for me.

I am also well aware that there are many that lack the understanding or confidence to believe as I do. But, you do know the old saying about 'sheep being led', right? If I am to be judged by my faith, I would rather be judged by 'just' that rather than someone elses.

I have observed that there are many many many folks that spend their entire lives attending a church and know practically NOTHING of the Word or God Himself. I refuse to follow this path either. I don't need milk my friend, I need the tough chewy stuff and this I have NEVER found in ANY church. I need strong muscles and hard bones to fight this fight, milk and jello just want do.

From your perspective Thess, I am quite sure that you truly believe that it is I that have little or no understanding. I don't fault you for that for I understand the nature of your view.

And trust me my friend, it's NOT JUST the Catholic faith that offers little to it's follower except mis-direction, it's all denominations that I have witnessed. I guess it's just easier to point out the fault of the RCC for the fact that it has had much longer to prove itself than the others.

But, I still love ya man. Even though we may not agree on how we should follow and worship, we still agree that this is our purpose.

God Bless ya Bro.
 
Mr. Solo,

Is all tradition BUNK?

My assement so far. We have one guy who says that truth is in little groups meeting in homes. One guy who says he is the infallible interpruter of truth, another woman who says it's all relative, and one guy who says you can't really know the truth and nobody should be meeting anywhere and all of these guys tell me I have it wrong while contradicting eachother. Oneness pentecostals, Adventists, seventh day baptists, 35 denominationds of baptists, another couple of dozen lutherans 30 pentecostal, all saying we're born again Chrsitians. But ignoring their diffences in theology and saying that the Catholic have it wrong. I call it blown about by every wind of doctrine. The verse "there he is, or look over there" seems to fit these late day apostate religions and theologies of man that nullify the word of God. I think this answers your post VERY WELL mr. solo about the great falling away.
 
Thess,
It is unfortunate, that you need to resort to negative assumptions why in individual as my self would leave the RCC. I often attend a RCC close to my home to meditate and pray, simply because it is open to the public, quiet, which has lots of stain glass stories and paintings of figures of Scripture, to cause my mind to reflect. I can no longer attend a Mass in good conscience, because I now believe that Christ was sacrifice once and for all time for my sins. I also, disagree with the doctrine of justification that the Council of Trent states that those who would believe in grace alone in regards to salvation should be cursed (and to my knowledge has never been rescinded). In respect to house churches, my original thread was that when persecution comes upon the true church, this is a natural consequence. Though, I believe that home groups are much more personable and allow for the 5 point ministries of EPH. 4:11-12, to be manifested. This is why I attend a Bible Study in homes regularly where we break bread together as we dine. But, I nonetheless, also attend a church building, where I worship corporately with the Body of Christ, remembering the true church is the individuals where the Holy Spirit resides in two or more, and not the edifice or institution.
Worthy is the Lamb, Beza
 
Thess,

The apostles were commisioned to 'start' the Church. Once this was completed, the starting of the Church, the 'falling away' started. Often times, we see from the writtings of Paul, the 'falling away' started EVEN BEFORE their deaths.

The 'falling away' WAS NOT a 'turning away' from religion. Simply a 'falling away' from the 'truth'. Christ did not advocate murdering those that refuse to accept the truth. His way was love, not hate. His way was freedom not incarceration.
 
Imagican said:
Thess,

The apostles were commisioned to 'start' the Church. Once this was completed, the starting of the Church, the 'falling away' started. Often times, we see from the writtings of Paul, the 'falling away' started EVEN BEFORE their deaths.
Oh, certainly it did. Jesus says there will be tares among the wheat and wolves among the sheep to the Apostles. This however cannot be run to the conclusion that at some point it became impossible to discern who the leaders were and the Church eventually ended up in shambles. Your views nullify the word of God regarding leadership and how the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church.

[quote:b5dcc]The 'falling away' WAS NOT a 'turning away' from religion. Simply a 'falling away' from the 'truth'. Christ did not advocate murdering those that refuse to accept the truth. His way was love, not hate. His way was freedom not incarceration.
[/quote:b5dcc]

Once again I agree regarding falling away. As for God being all love, I think you are focusing a bit too much on the mercy of God without understanding his justice. You need to read 1 Cor 5 where Paul says he hands the man's body, who is living with his father's wife, over to satan so that his soul might be spared. Also, Romans 13 says that God ordained leaders and governments and at times it is proper for them to use the sword to keep order. Jude says of the Judaziers, "they must be silenced". John says if someone brings a false Gospel to your door don't even welcome them. Jesus is very harsh with the scribes and pharasees. Calling them blind guides, and a brood of vipers. So it is not all nice and touchy feely love. Love is not always being nice.

Blessings
 
beza said:
Thess,
It is unfortunate, that you need to resort to negative assumptions why in individual as my self would leave the RCC.

I did not make any assumption as to why YOU left. My comments were not assumptions but real life experiences with people who I know that have left.

I often attend a RCC close to my home to meditate and pray, simply because it is open to the public, quiet, which has lots of stain glass stories and paintings of figures of Scripture, to cause my mind to reflect. I can no longer attend a Mass in good conscience, because I now believe that Christ was sacrifice once and for all time for my sins. I also, disagree with the doctrine of justification that the Council of Trent states that those who would believe in grace alone in regards to salvation should be cursed (and to my knowledge has never been rescinded). In respect to house churches, my original thread was that when persecution comes upon the true church, this is a natural consequence. Though, I believe that home groups are much more personable and allow for the 5 point ministries of EPH. 4:11-12, to be manifested. This is why I attend a Bible Study in homes regularly where we break bread together as we dine. But, I nonetheless, also attend a church building, where I worship corporately with the Body of Christ, remembering the true church is the individuals where the Holy Spirit resides in two or more, and not the edifice or institution.
Worthy is the Lamb, Beza

Thanks for the clarification. Trent does not say that those who would believe in grace alone in regards to salvation should be cursed. Salvation is by grace alone. This is what the Catholic Church has always taught. Your understanding of trent is quite incorrect.

Jesus died once for all. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not another sacrifice but a re(not to be confused with rep) presentation of that one same sacrifice. That is the teaching. It is the grace earned on the cross brought forward and applied to our lives today. It is not another sacrifice.

Mal 1
[11] For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

The early Church related this to the Lord's Supper. His sacrifice on calvary is an eternal sacrifice, presented today in an unbloody manner at the Mass. You should read Scott Hahn's book, the Lamb's Supper. The parrellels between the Book of Revaltions and the Mass are amazing.

Blessings
 
The RC's, EO's and Reformed are all guitly of sacralism, which is a false tradition. Beza used Augustine in the same manner the RC's did to force people into the Church.

Belgic Confession 36 "And the government's task is not limited to caring for and watching over the public domain but extends also to upholding the sacred ministry, with a view to removing and destroying all idolatry and false worship of the Antichrist; to promoting the kingdom of Jesus Christ; and to furthering the preaching of the gospel everywhere; to the end that God may be honored and served by everyone, as he requires in his Word."

"And on this matter we denounce the Anabaptists, other anarchists, and in general all those who want to reject the authorities and civil officers and to subvert justice by introducing common ownership of goods and corrupting the moral order that God has established among human beings."


Beza tried to use the story of Ananias and Sapphira to justify his sacralism and he asked, 'what power did Peter put to death Ananias and Sapphira? And with what power did Paul smite Elymas blind? Was it with the power of that vested in the Church? Of course not, well then; it must have been with the power that is vested in the magistrate, there being no third kind of power.'

Abraham Kuyper was a sacalist, see Dictaten Dogmatiek page 420.

One anabaptist wrote, 'Where has God commanded his child saying, 'Child, go into the whole world...teach all nations, him however who refuses to accept or to believe your teaching you are to catch, torture, yes, strangle until he believers?'

I believe this teaching comes from a false idea of the nature of the Kingdom...

peace.
 
Imagican said:
Thess,

I am a former 'nothing' other than a former 'lost-soul'. You well know that I promote NO denomination. I have been lead to the understanding through my study of the Bible that I am responsible for my own Salvation and no 'man' can offer this or take it away.

And your own Gospel. It is sad that Christianity is so divided and I am sure confusing for people like you. But this does not mean one can start his own Church of one. Paul warns against those who refuse to assemble in Corinthians.

I know God and have managed to grow in our relationship without the influence of churches. If anything, I have been lead through understanding to warn others that worshiping a church is not the Way to God. It's a personal one on one kind of thing that is NOT reliant upon ANYTHING other than Love of our Father and acceptance of His Son.

Your judgement of those in Churches as worshipping them and your condemnation of such activities is very unbiblical and shows that you may well not have matured in Christ as much as you think. You are very judgemental of other Christians and what they do. Further you do not submit to MANY MANY passages in scripture, nullifying them with your own self imposed tradition that everyone needs to be a one man show like you.

I find it amusing that you would create such a thread and expect anything other than the response that most have offered.

I find it amusing that you keep making statements claiming to know my heart and expectations. Nothing that has happened on this thread has suprized me in the slightest.

You are obviously a member of a church that relies on MUCH tradition.

Sacred oral tradition passed on from the times of the apostles. yes we do and it's quite biblical.

I understand how difficult it is to learn things and then find that they may not be the 'truth'.

Yes, I've had to submit to the Church rather than my own whims many times in my life and it has been hard.

I have had many try and convince me that I MUST conform to their beliefs and understandings.


What you won't conform to is anything but your own whims. You subject scripture to your own personal opinions and imperfections and then nullify the verses that don't fit what you think, saying things like, well we really can't tell who the leaders who we are to submit to are who are concerned for our souls are today, so I will do it my way.

I compare my walk to theirs and they seem void of a personal relationship with God.

Very judgemental of you.

I may be completely wrong. But from my experience, I have gained much through my faith, and it's MINE. Without all the 'ritual' getting in the way. It certainly works for me.

There is much ritual in scripture. Read the book of revaltions. It doesn't seem to get in the way in heaven.



I
have observed that there are many many many folks that spend their entire lives attending a church and know practically NOTHING of the Word or God Himself. I refuse to follow this path either. I don't need milk my friend, I need the tough chewy stuff and this I have NEVER found in ANY church. I need strong muscles and hard bones to fight this fight, milk and jello just want do.

You are trying to understand a family story without being a part of the family. You will get some things right but miss out on alot.

From your perspective Thess, I am quite sure that you truly believe that it is I that have little or no understanding. I don't fault you for that for I understand the nature of your view.

No, I think you have some, but you are missing a significant chunk and are very prideful of your own ideas and abilities.




And trust me my friend, it's NOT JUST the Catholic faith that offers little to it's follower except mis-direction, it's all denominations that I have witnessed. I guess it's just easier to point out the fault of the RCC for the fact that it has had much longer to prove itself than the others.

You are quite wrong and deciving yourself.

Blessings
 
Thess,

You continue to insist that I must follow 'your' church or I am wrong. This in itself is prime 'proof' of what has happened to the churches.

You insist that 'your' tradition is correct and goes back to that taught by the apostles. I don't believe this. The apostles NEVER taught men to call religious leaders "Father". Never. We have their words and there are NONE that teach us this.

The ten commandments warn us against creating 'man-made' images to worship. You would have me disregard this warning and accept the worshipping of 'man-made' images.

The apostles DID give authority to Church leaders, so long as the leaders continued in that which the APOSTLES taught. Christ warned of the 'adding' to the law that the religious leaders of His time had done. You would have me accept the 'words' of the Pope, regardless of scripture that may contradict his teachings.

Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ. You would have me accept and believe that Mary was the mother of God. Mary and Joseph had other children, Jesus' half brothers and sisters. You would have me believe in and worship Mary as a continual virgin, denying that her and Joseph had other children.

Then you thrash my 'one man show' kind of gospel and offer that yours fraught with unscriptural tradition and say that 'your' way is the 'right' way.

Inquisitions, wars, lust for money, worshipping idols, deceit of the masses, denying the followers the Word, confessing to a particular 'man'. The list goes on and on. These traditions ARE NOT those offered by the apostles. You can twist it, bend it, paint it, or just simply deny it, but you can't change the facts. Catholicism is nothing more or less than a 'man-made' religion fraught with the denial and changing of God's Word to suit their personal agendas. A combining of paganism and Christianity in a pseudo Christian religion that wouldn't even exist today had they not been able to destroy all who opposed them in the past.

Funny how they teach that they are following the traditions past down from the apostles. But now that their power to 'force' others to worship them has faded, they are gradually changing to accommodate the masses. Homosexuality, abortion, birth-control, have become issues that cause separation even in this church that you claim is formed in the 'tradition' of the apostles. Please.

Rather than to submit to the will of something other than God, I choose to follow God instead. Even if it means doing it without 'your' organized churches. My wife, my son, and myself are The Church. As we find others to celebrate the gifts offered by God with, this is what we will do. We gather in His name, we just don't choose to do it in your 'man-made' and organized, traditional way.

We warn others of their dependency upon 'man-made' worship and encourage them to regain their independence from such bonds. We love our brothers and sisters regardless but would hope that they too could see truth and allow it to set them free. We don't ask for money. We help those that we can. And the important thing; We thank God daily for His love and ask for His forgiveness constantly.

And Thess, I do everything in my power to encourage everyone that I know and meet to: READ THE WORD. Don't trust me, don't trust other pastors, READ THE WORD FOR YOURSELF. God didn't offer His word for 'your' popes to be the 'only' ones capable of understanding it. He offered His Word so that ALL could benefit from it.
 
Thess,
In regards to the Mass:

"THE LORD'S SUPPER. in the Roman Catholic Church, is called "The Mass" a word which in itself has no significance, being merely a modification the phrase, "Ite, missa est,"-"Go, the assembly is dismissed," which was uttered in the early assemblies of the church at the dismissing of the congregation, after which those who remained partook of the emblems in the Lord's Supper. By a strange use-or rather misuse-the words of dismissal uttered at the end of one service became in the word "Mass" the name for the service which followed.

But that which this word "Mass" represents-in itself so meaningless -yet having an overshadowing significance in Romanism, a system to which it is distinctive and peculiar-goes far beyond any idea or conception that can be found in the New Testament.

The Christian sees in the Lord's Supper a memorial, a communion, a feast of thanksgiving, and some indeed regard it as a sacrament, but in Rome it is a "Sacrifice"!â€â€ceremony in which the celebrant boldly claims to offer for the living and the dead, a repetition of the atoning sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. That this involves not merely a difference in words, expressions and forms, but of vital faith and practice will at once be seen. It includes the belief that the officiating priest actually changes the elements of bread and wine into the real body and blood of Christ, the process by which this change is effected being called "Transubstantiation."

This is Rome's bold and fearless, yea uncompromising avowal, and as we look upon it, so clearly presented, we see the very heart of Romish error.

Rome has many superstitions, follies, misleading forms and erroneous doctrines such as Mariolatry, purgatory, confession, saint-worship, prayers for the dead, priestly absolution, spurious sacraments, etc., etc., but none of these can be compared in point of danger, to the blasting power of the Mass.

Let this doctrine be accepted, and there logically follows the belief that a priest can create God! And having created Him, that he can and does offer Him as a sacrifice for sin!

For the testing of such a claim, there can be only one tribunal, and that is the Word of God. But when tested here we find only, and everywhere, definite and conclusive contradiction. If there is one thing the Word of God does not teach, it is this. If there is one thing the Word of God opposes, it is this.

These assertions may be easily sustained, forâ€â€

First: The doctrine of the Mass denies the all-sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ,-the Atonement,-a truth which the Bible has safeguarded at every point, in language that cannot be misunderstood. For example, in Hebrews 9:12 we read, "By His [Christ's] own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for s." If the believer's redemption is eternal is it not in itself sufficient? Again in Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ was once [not 'many times to be'] offered to bear the sins of many." Again, Hebrews 10:10, "By the which [God's] will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Again, Hebrews 10:12,14, "But this Man [Jesus Christ] after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God....For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified." And all this is corroborated by the Holy Spirit, for we read in Hebrews 10:15, "Whereof the Holy Ghost is a witness to us." Added to these clear statements are the conclusive words found in the 17th and 18th verses of the tenth chapter. "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." How definitely do all these quotations harmonize with the dying testimony of our Lord, sealed with His own precious blood, "It is finished."

The truth is also at once brought to light by the simple question, Where is our Lord Jesus Christ right now? Is He still a curse? Is He still forsaken as He was when He hung on the cross as a sacrifice for sin? The priest in his claim of sacrificing (crucifying) Christ afresh answers, "Yes!" Surely that is what the offering again of the body and blood of Christ means; that He is still a curse, still forsaken of God. But the Word of God answers, "No!" by telling us distinctly that Christ is now at the right hand of God, Himself the High Priest making intercession for His people. That is, the Bible tells us that Christ is now Himself performing the very office which the priest on earth claims to be fulfilling for those who resort to his ministry in the Mass.

The glorious fact is, that the presence of the High Priest in heaven there performing His appropriate work of intercession, renders it altogether unnecessary that there be any priest on earth, and accordingly we find that in all the New Testament there is no such thing known to it, for this age, as a human priest. If any were needed we would certainly expect to find them among the apostles, but among them, there was not one who claimed priesthood! Peter himself never claimed to be a priest, and is never even referred to as such! The only priesthood recognized in the New Testament for this dispensation of grace is the spiritual priesthood of all believers, as we find it stated in 1 Peter 2:9, "But ye [all believers] are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into the His marvelous light."

Continuing our argument, we find the Word of God declaring in Hebrews 9:22, "Without shedding of blood is no remission." So then to remit sins by sacrifice of the Mass the priest must shed blood. But does he shed blood when he offers the Mass? No, he eats the bread, and drinks the wine, after claiming to transform them into the flesh and blood of Christ. He does not even go through the form of shedding blood. How then can he remit ? He cannot. The only way in which sins can be remitted is by faith in the Blood of Christ that was shed on Calvary.

We see further, that if the priest offers Christ upon the altar as a sacrifice, the Resurrection of Christ has not power or meaning. With Rome, Christ is ever upon the altar (i.e., the Cross). Here is a fatal defect, for the Word says, "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins," I Corinthians 15:17.

The Mass tells only of Christ's death and nothing of His resurrection. But how sweet to the heart of the Gospel believer are the words of assurance Romans 5:1, "Therefore"â€â€since Christ "was delivered for our offenses, and raised again for our justification"â€â€"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Second: The second charge against the Mass is that it misrepresents the nature of the elements in the Lord's Supper. Against the doctrine of Transubstantiation, or the change of the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper into the real body and blood of Christ, some one has well written: "The question is simply this : In John 6, when the Savior states "Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life, and I will up at the last day'; 'He that eateh My flesh, and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him,' is He figuratively or literally?

"In answering this question would take this ground: In every instance in Scripture where a figure is intended, the words cannot be understood to be literal. 'Except a man be born again'; 'I am the vine, ye are the branches'; 'This rock was Christ'; and hundreds more, could not possibly be meant to be literal. The manna was evidently real food, as we learn in Exodus. But when Jesus says, 'I am the bread which came down from heaven,' it could not possibly mean that He was a loaf of bread from heaven. Was not bread used here as a figure of Jesus sent from heaven, as seen incarnate among men? He says, 'I am the bread of life.' This He says whilst He was here a living Man. No change into bread, or bread into Himself, but ‘I am the bread of life.' Then He says, 'I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.' To take this literally, then, would be to say that Jesus was a piece of bread which might be eaten! and that bread would become fleshâ€â€His fleshâ€â€and be given for the life of the world. Would it not be just as true to say that He was literally a vine?

"As a figure of the incarnate Jesus, bread was very striking. As we receive bread for the nourishment of the body, so by faith we receive the Person of Christ as the incarnate Word. But, not only so, we must also receive Him offered on the cross for the life of the world. 'Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.' We will look at this literally, and what would follow? If eating the flesh and drinking the blood means eating the wafer, or the wafer turned into, or changed into, the body and blood of the Lord Jesus in the Eucharist, then what would the following words mean: 'Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.' Mark, these words are absolute, without any condition whatever. ‘Whoso’ would teach that any wicked man, unrepentant, or unbelieving, living in sin, yet, if he only ate the Eucharist, had eternal life, and was sure to be raised up by the Lord; and that no Christian can believe.

"Taking these words spiritually, everything becomes clear and no Christian need have a shadow of difficulty indeed, this is in perfect harmony with all Scripture. ‘Verily, verily I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life. John 5:24. But we must not only by faith receive Him as the bread, but drink His blood. We must receive the solemn word of His atoning death-the shedding of His blood, for ‘without the shedding of blood is no remission.’ Thus, the more we study this Scripture, the more we see the impossibility of , as in every other figure, applying the words in a carnal, or literal way. To put the Eucharist, then, in the place of receiving Christ Himself, by faith, would be a fatal mistake.

Third: The third charge against this stupendously wicked institution, is that by it Rome has held and is holding millions of souls in bondage the end of which is eternal despair. All the blessings of the Gospel are withheld from those who accept the doctrine of the Mass, for it is in complete and deadly opposition to the Gospel. Believing in the Mass none can say, "Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood," Revelation 1:5. The Mass practically says that the sacrifice of Christ is of no more value than the death of a goat under the old Dispensation. It says the work of Christ is not finished, but must be repeated and continued. It practically denies His resurrection and ascension to glory, for He is kept in the place of death. If so, He is still forsaken of God, made sin, then there no Savior who has delivered us from the wrath to come and no salvation is possible, and thus the Mass entirely destroys Christianity.

What a scourge the Mass becomes in the hands of Rome to drive its votaries to obedience. Armed with it Rome forces them to come continually to her shrines, and to pay unceasingly for the support of her vast ritualistic display, her temporal, material pomp and glory. And after all the gifts and fanatical devotion of her deluded followers what does she offer them at last? Heaven? No!â€â€Purgatory! This awaits them all, form Pope to the humblest devotee. Purgatory! A place of pain and of uncertain release.

But purgatory is only one piece of the whole system of superstition, intimidation and deception. It is quite a logical attendant on what precedes it, for purgatory demands more masses, and consequently a continuance bondage on the one hand and an inflow of receipts on the other.

By contrast how beautiful, comforting and sustaining is the Christian’s belief! For him there are no attractions in the Mass. He realizes he is washed from his sins in the precious blood of Christ, that he is sealed by the Holy Spirit to the day of Redemption (the resurrection), that his name is written in the Lambs Book of Life, and that Heaven is his home. This is the Gospelâ€â€the glorious Gospel of the Blessed God, and enjoying it he can triumphantly exclaimâ€â€"Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable Gift!" To him the Lord's Supper is indeed the Eucharist - the feast of Thanksgiving."
Charles Cook

Have you ever wonder why RCC perform the Mass each and everyday? If they do not, then there is no sacrifice for sin for that day. Thess. in respect to the council of Trent, how much more clear is this:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man's power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.

CANON VII.-If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema.

CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that the fear of hell,-whereby, by grieving for our sins, we flee unto the mercy of God, or refrain from sinning,-is a sin, or makes sinners worse; let him be anathema.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that it is necessary for every one, for the obtaining the remission of sins, that he believe for certain, and without any wavering arising from his own infirmity and disposition, that his sins are forgiven him; let him be anathema.

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.

CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.

CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXV.-If any one saith, that, in every good work, the just sins venially at least, or-which is more intolerable still-mortally, and consequently deserves eternal punishments; and that for this cause only he is not damned, that God does not impute those works unto damnation; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVII.-If any one saith, that there is no mortal sin but that of infidelity; or, that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save by that of infidelity ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVIII.-If any one saith, that, grace being lost through sin, faith also is always lost with it; or, that the faith which remains, though it be not a lively faith, is not a true faith; or, that he, who has faith without charity, is not a Chris taught; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIX.-If any one saith, that he, who has fallen after baptism, is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church-instructed by Christ and his Apostles-has hitherto professed, observed, and taugh; let him be anathema.

CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

CANON XXXI.-If any one saith, that the justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXIII.-If any one saith,that,by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

Beza
 
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