How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[Stan1953]

I'm not denying they speak of death on Earth (the 1st one) and have said so several times, so why do you say "if" I’m not?
But to answer again your perfectly reasonable question, because these passages DO provide evidence for CI:
Is S&G specifically given for us to be taken as a warning of a coming final punishment (not a temporary one on Earth)? Yes, Peter uses it as an example, warning us of future events that are after the final judgment even though the first Earthly events happened a long, long time ago on Earth. It's an "example" to their actual final punishment not their final one.

Because they don't support CI, so wouldn't you be confused as to a persons stated intention if they used scripture for corroboration that did NOT corroborate?

Is Matt 10:28b also a warning? Yes, it is. And furthermore, it’s a warning about what occurs in Hell/Gehenna that's even more fearful than the 1st death of only the body. That's why these earthly destruction by fire (i.e. death) passages are relevant. And furthermore, some that I've mentioned are not even about Earthly death but rather specifically warning about their post-judment death.

Yes, it is a warning about death itself, and how it destroys the man and who he was. Maybe you could just stick to scripture you can agree supports your position on CI, and not use others that don't to muddy up the waters? So far I haven't seen any. All that I have seen depict physical/bodily death, where our life essence leaves us. I don't see how they support CI?
Doesn't Luke 16 and 23 show there is Paradise after death.

These facts support CI, because God not only is able to destroy bodies on Earth, He is able to destroy bodies and souls in Hell/Gehenna. Your idea has God NOT destroying the whole human being (leaving the spirit eternally in the Lake of Fire). Which is an odd thing for the Lake of Fire to do (leave the spirit undestroyed that is). God is perfectly able to destroy both the body and the soul and we are told to fear Him for that reason.

Again. able or can even from your perspective, does not mean He does. Luke 16 shows He doesn't and as all the dead who are not i8n Christ, come from Hell/Hades in the Revelation of Christ, then they aren't destroyed are they?

However, He's evidently chosen not to destroy souls until AFTER ALL the ungodly are all judged. I think I even know why He's reserving their judgment, in the Lake of Fire, until later on. Their Earthly sins have effected lot's of people years after their deaths(including lot). They need to be judged and sentenced to a punishment for those acts.

The only sin people are judged for is not accepting Christ as their savior. Either the promise thereof in the OT or the actuality thereof in the NT. The law of sowing and reaping is another matter all together.

And here's why my point is on topic of this thread, as I’ve pointed out several times:
Notice that even in this rather dated post now, I clearly said that sin is a disease that kills them (meaning death on Earth of course). But that’s NOT the end of the story (or their final punishment, for that matter). In fact, for a Christian, we are told to NOT fear death of the body (rather fear the destruction of the soul). Odd, don’t you think that Jesus did NOT tell us to fear the torturing of the spirit in Hell but the destruction of the soul there?

Well as I have also repeatedly stated, Jesus is not talking about afterlife per say, but the perception that the grave was the end of all things among many Jews, when it wasn't.
John Gill writes;

This is a description of God, and of his power, who is able to do that which men are not: all that they can do, by divine permission, is to kill the body; but he is able to "destroy", that is, to torment and punish both body and soul "in hell", in everlasting burnings; for neither soul nor body will be annihilated; though this he is able to do. As the former clause expresses the immortality of the soul, this supposes the resurrection of the body; for how otherwise should it be destroyed, or punished with the soul in hell? Now this awful being which is able to hurl, and will hurl all wicked and slothful, unfaithful and unprofitable, cowardly and temporising servants and ministers, soul and body, into the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, is to be feared and dreaded; yea, indeed, he only is to be feared, and to be obeyed: cruel and persecuting men are not to be feared at all; God alone should be our fear and dread; though the argument seems to be formed from the lesser to the greater; yet this, is the sense of the word "rather", that God is to be feared, not chiefly and principally only, but solely; and in some versions that word is left out, as in the Arabic, and Ethiopic, and in Munster's Hebrew Gospel.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/matthew-10-28.html​

Remember, God is a consuming fire! Now we also know that fire consumes not only the present heaven and Earth on the Day of Judgment but also ALL (not just many) ungodly men as they are also destroyed by this consuming fire along with Heaven and Earth (and Hades) and the souls of the wicked.
Look at 2 Peter 3:7 closely. Heaven and Earth are being reserved for fire! In Revelation we learn that both Heaven and Earth are “no more” (which kind of puts a damper on Hell being eternally at the center of this Earth forever or even that people live forever ‘spiritually’ in a Valley outside of Jerusalem).
But my point is, God’s Wrathful fire eventually destroys things we might think are permanent (Bodies and Souls. Heaven and Earth).
Eternal destruction DOES NOT mean eternal torment, either. Not to me or anybody with an open mind to evaluating the actual text, versus tradition.
Destruction means what it sounds like it means, destruction. God could have easily given us a passage that said wicked humans experience eternal torture of their spirits. He hasn’t. He said they receive eternal destruction. It’s really just that simple.
I’ve noticed how people try to use the passage about the Devil and his angles and apply it to humans even though it specifically says it’s prepared for the Devil and his angels. It seems odd to me why someone would do that, other than the obvious fact that there is no passage that says humans are tortured forever. So it’s the closest passage there is to that elusive ECT passage about human spirits living on somewhere (Hell, Gehenna, LoF, etc.) eternally.
p.s. Why do you think in John’s vision the ungodly receive the Lake of Fire (also known as the 2nd death) and not a River of Fire (versus the river of continually flowing Living Water, which the godly receive)? It’s worth thinking about.

And yes He was the fire in the bush that did NOT consume the bush. Ex 3:2-3
You see the mistake with many is that they take a word and try to make it fit in any and all uses of it in scriptures, where the tenor of it's use has to first be established before we can GET IT. Allegory, hyperbole and metaphor, do NOT indicate literalism, and we all should know the Bible contains all of those types of writing.
The throwing into that lake of fire, of the resurrected sinners, is the second death, because they were all resurrected physically. Only they received the second death, of their physical body, as believers receive Eternal Life.
Again for the umpteenth time, Jesus taught what happens to those people. Matt 25:46 AND Rev 20:10, shows who will go into the lake of fire, and for how long.

 

[chessman]

So I am interested in how yall think this affects the Gospel. I have heard the C.I side say that the idea of a God who tortures the unsaved for eternity causes people to reject Christianity because it doesn't make sense that the Bible claims God to be "just" and at the same time do this. …
I have heard from the E.C.T side say that Annihilation makes hell sound "not so bad after all" and when people hear this they might decide they would rather enjoy their time here on earth doing what they want instead of giving their life to the Lord.

Jeff,

The only Scripture that speaks of eternal torture/torment in Hell (technically the Lake of Fire, not Hell, but most people associate the LoF with Hell synonymously) is Rev 20:10. That’s it! Literally! One Scripture from the Book of Revelation out of the whole Bible. Rev 14:11 is still speaking about pre-resurrection events). I know that might sound like a stretch after all these months of posts and comments. But check it out yourself.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=torture+torment&version=LEB&searchtype=any

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

Therefore, it’s somewhat relevant to make sure you know who/what The Beast and The False Prophet is within John’s vision toward the answer to your OP question (“Should I tell people that God tortures the unsaved for eternity in Hell when sharing the Gospel?”). At least in my opinion, it is. By no means is it necessary to understand every little detail about Revelation’s prophecies and I’m no expert on them, for sure. But this one question; the who/what are these two (demons or humans) in Rev that share the LoF with the Devil prior to the Judgment, that seems pretty straight forward to understand to me.

I posted several lines of reasoning for it anyway.

 

[chessman]

but he is able to "destroy", that is, to torment and punish both body and soul "in hell",

You see the mistake with many is that they take a word and try to make it fit in any and all uses of it in scriptures,

 

[Stan1953]

Sorry chessman, you'll have to use your WORDS to make your point, if any, here.

 

[Stan1953]

Jeff,

The only Scripture that speaks of eternal torture/torment in Hell (technically the Lake of Fire, not Hell, but most people associate the LoF with Hell synonymously) is Rev 20:10. That’s it! Literally! One Scripture from the Book of Revelation out of the whole Bible. Rev 14:11 is still speaking about pre-resurrection events). I know that might sound like a stretch after all these months of posts and comments. But check it out yourself.

Matthew 25:41 refers to it as well.

 

[chessman]

Matthew 25:41 refers to it as well.

Matthew 25:41 (LEB) 41 Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! ​

Nope. NADA torture, NADA torment

You see the mistake with many is that they take a word and try to make it fit in any and all uses of it in scriptures

46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

…

their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.​

 

[Stan1953]

Matthew 25:41 (LEB) 41 Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
Nope. NADA torture, NADA torment
46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.

Matt 25:41 NIV​

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matt 25:46 NIV​

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Rev 20:10 NIV​

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


I can't make you see the correlation. The lake of fire does not obliterate spirits. It is a place of eternal spiritual confinement. The LoF IS the second death, for those who were not resurrected until the judgment. They are the ones depicted in Rev 20:11-15 NIV

The NT has to be read and understood in it's entirety on ANY subject.

 

[MarkT]

{quote]Take a look at Chessman's post it explains well about the worms and destruction/annihilation.[/quote]

No. He doesn't.

Destruction does not necessarily mean annihilated. A body can be burned and so destroyed leaving only ashes. But the soul remains. And this is what we are looking to save after all. We are not looking to save the body.

Something about the wicked does not die. Whether it is the soul or the body, Jesus said their worm does not die. This is the second death. The ungodly are thrown into the lake of fire where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. This is after the second resurrection, so they are not dead when they are salted with fire, the fire being the judgment of God. So they are thrown alive into the lake of fire. And as Jesus said, their worm does not die. So annihilation is not in the cards for them. Their worm does not die.

 

[MarkT]

]Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Therefore, it’s somewhat relevant to make sure you know who/what The Beast and The False Prophet is within John’s vision toward the answer to your OP question (“Should I tell people that God tortures the unsaved for eternity in Hell when sharing the Gospel?”). At least in my opinion, it is. By no means is it necessary to understand every little detail about Revelation’s prophecies and I’m no expert on them, for sure. But this one question; the who/what are these two (demons or humans) in Rev that share the LoF with the Devil prior to the Judgment, that seems pretty straight forward to understand to me.

I posted several lines of reasoning for it anyway.

The False Prophet would be Mohammed because the Koran is not from God; God didn't say any of the words Mohammed said. And the Beast would be Darwin because of his teaching that man is an animal.

Sorry if this not politically correct.

 

[jeff77]

Jeff,

The only Scripture that speaks of eternal torture/torment in Hell (technically the Lake of Fire, not Hell, but most people associate the LoF with Hell synonymously) is Rev 20:10. That’s it! Literally! One Scripture from the Book of Revelation out of the whole Bible. Rev 14:11 is still speaking about pre-resurrection events). I know that might sound like a stretch after all these months of posts and comments. But check it out yourself.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=torture+torment&version=LEB&searchtype=any

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

Therefore, it’s somewhat relevant to make sure you know who/what The Beast and The False Prophet is within John’s vision toward the answer to your OP question (“Should I tell people that God tortures the unsaved for eternity in Hell when sharing the Gospel?”). At least in my opinion, it is. By no means is it necessary to understand every little detail about Revelation’s prophecies and I’m no expert on them, for sure. But this one question; the who/what are these two (demons or humans) in Rev that share the LoF with the Devil prior to the Judgment, that seems pretty straight forward to understand to me.

I posted several lines of reasoning for it anyway.

Thanks chessman, I look at when I get a chance. Isn't kind of crazy that a lot of us here have been talking about this for over a year! lol

 

[Stan1953]

The False Prophet would be Mohammed because the Koran is not from God; God didn't say any of the words Mohammed said. And the Beast would be Darwin because of his teaching that man is an animal.
Sorry if this not politically correct.

Interesting, but I think they will be current characters of that time, whenever that day is.

 

[chessman]

Thanks chessman, I look at when I get a chance. Isn't kind of crazy that a lot of us here have been talking about this for over a year! lol

Yes it is odd. I wouldn't have even begun to look into it, were it not for how the study of this topic brings out some very profound truths not really associated with their final punishment one way or the other.

I know it sounds uncaring of me, but frankly I don't really worry to much about things I cannot change. And what I think God should do with the wicked or not will have zero effect on what God does with them. He will not ask me what I think.

Plus, the real point is God's Wrath toward the wicked is something to avoid.

Also, I'm not here trying to convince people of CI. I'm looking for their good arguments against it.

 

[JLB]

Jeff,

The only Scripture that speaks of eternal torture/torment in Hell (technically the Lake of Fire, not Hell, but most people associate the LoF with Hell synonymously) is Rev 20:10. That’s it! Literally! One Scripture from the Book of Revelation out of the whole Bible. Rev 14:11 is still speaking about pre-resurrection events). I know that might sound like a stretch after all these months of posts and comments. But check it out yourself.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=torture+torment&version=LEB&searchtype=any

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

Therefore, it’s somewhat relevant to make sure you know who/what The Beast and The False Prophet is within John’s vision toward the answer to your OP question (“Should I tell people that God tortures the unsaved for eternity in Hell when sharing the Gospel?”). At least in my opinion, it is. By no means is it necessary to understand every little detail about Revelation’s prophecies and I’m no expert on them, for sure. But this one question; the who/what are these two (demons or humans) in Rev that share the LoF with the Devil prior to the Judgment, that seems pretty straight forward to understand to me.

I posted several lines of reasoning for it anyway.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name ." Revelation 14:9-11

This passage of scripture reveals the fate of those who take the mark and worship the beast.

They shall be tormented with fire and have no rest from the torment day or night.

No where in this passage does it say they are burned up and cease to exist.

No where does it say these were in hell or the lake of fire.


Jesus sentenced those whom He cursed to the same everlasting punishment as the devil and his angels -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41,46

Where does the devil end up?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Does the false prophet who is human get burned up and cease to exist?


JLB

 

[jeff77]

Yes it is odd. I wouldn't have even begun to look into it, were it not for how the study of this topic brings out some very profound truths not really associated with their final punishment one way or the other.

I know it sounds uncaring of me, but frankly I don't really worry to much about things I cannot change. And what I think God should do with the wicked or not will have zero effect on what God does with them. He will not ask me what I think.

Plus, the real point is God's Wrath toward the wicked is something to avoid.

Also, I'm not here trying to convince people of CI. I'm looking for their good arguments against it.

I like that chessman. I am also looking for good arguments one way or the other for ECT. Not necessarily trying to convince people to change their view. Like you said in an earlier post that we wouldn't want anyone to just take our word for it concerning a Biblical doctrine.

 

[chessman]

I can't make you see the correlation. The lake of fire does not obliterate spirits. It is a place of eternal spiritual confinement.

I assure you, if you would simply quote a Scripture that said the LoF does not obliterate the spirits and/or the souls of wicked humans, I would ‘see’ it. (A long time ago). As it stands now, you have not.

I respect John Gill's commentary on many topics. But his commentary about Matt 10:28b’s use of the word “destroy”, I disagree with. Plus, I disagree that souls are created immortal. His comments are obviously meant to stand firm on the traditional view, contrary to the Biblical evidence right there in the verse he commented on and other verses that use the word “destroy” and specifically says God is able to destroy souls. He literally had to say "destroy" does not mean what it means but rather means torment to this passage and assume God will not do the very thing He says He is able to do in Hell to avoid the implications (ECT?=no).

John Gill writes;
; but he is able to "destroy", that is, to torment and punish both body and soul "in hell",

Gill's comments on Matt 10:28 here demonstrates the very point I was making, way back about the word destruction (destroy).

I made the point a long time ago, that this is really the only ECT option. That’s how/why you and I got into discussing the word “destroy” or “destruction”. If we change the word's meaning, it's then not the correct meaning that Jesus intended, in my opinion. I fully understand words get their meaning in context and Jesus could have meant “destroy” in a hyperbolic way. Such as FSU will “destroy” the gators again this year. But I’ve thought about that option with this passage and it makes zero sense to me that is what Jesus meant.

Really? In Matt 10:28, Jesus is saying be fearful of God metaphorically/hyperbolically using “destroy”? I doubt it very seriously.

However, it’s really the only alternative to this passage and still believe in ECT, which is why Gill says what he does about “destroy”.

At least he recognizes Jesus is speaking about Hell and their final punishment and what God will (not just is able to) do toward both the body and the soul in Hell.

You realized that Mr. Gill disagrees with your take and responses to me (several) over your last several replies that this passage is out of context toward the discussion of their final judgment, right? Plus, he disagrees with you that it’s merely about what God is able to do and not about what He will do.

You kept telling me (still are) that it’s merely about 1st death or physical/bodily death. Which is obviously incorrect since it’s talking about Hell and the soul. One way or the other, it’s about Hell and the soul.

[Matt 10:28b] it is a warning about death itself, and how it destroys the man and who he was. Maybe you could just stick to scripture you can agree supports your position on CI, and not use others that don't to muddy up the waters? So far I haven't seen any. All that I have seen depict physical/bodily death, where our life essence leaves us.

Brother, Jesus specifically says DO NOT be afraid of physical/bodily death itself. See how this affects people’s thinking! If you make this passage merely about fearing physical/bodily death or not (Matt 10:28a), you miss Jesus's point entirely with Matt 10:28b. Jesus says do NOT fear physical/bodily death (the first one), then you turn right around and say it’s Jesus’ warning us about physical/bodily death itself. And furthermore, He says it’s about Hell. And furthermore, if it’s merely about what God “is able” to do (though He will not actually do it), then it’s God making an idle threat to His disciples.

I don’t even think you really mean what you said here, if you think about it for a second. But then again, maybe you do. But I don’t believe it, regardless.

I do not see where there is any reason to believe Matt 10:28b is not a critical passage to this subject, once again. It IS on topic and it is in context and it is about Hell and it is about the soul (not just the body). Gill agrees with this, BTW.

He disagrees with your take that it’s merely about physical/bodily death. Read his comments again with a fresh approach:

Now this awful being which is able to hurl, and will hurl all wicked and slothful, unfaithful and unprofitable, cowardly and temporising servants and ministers, soul and body, into the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, is to be feared and dreaded; yea, indeed, he only is to be feared,​

Did you catch that? He obviously recognizes Matt 10:28 is a passage about God’s real coming judgment upon souls. Thus, it’s in context to our topic according to Gill. Plus he recognizes that it’s a teaching to be fearful of God alone and His coming punishment (not a warning about physical/bodily death). Plus, he even says God “is able” “and will” do this action.

We (Mr. Gill and myself) simply disagree on what the coming punishment is, precisely. Oh, and one more thing (the inherent immortality of created souls). He says:

As the former clause [meaning Matt 10:28a] expresses the immortality of the soul​

Excuse me, but the soul living on (man cannot kill the soul) in-between the 1st death and the 2nd death (which I believe in by the way via Luke 16 and other teachings like this very Matt 10:28 passage) no more ‘expresses’ the immortality of the created soul post judgment than Heaven/Earth being around for 14.5 Billion years (or 6,000 depending on your view) ‘expresses’ the immortality of the universe. This assumption of his (souls are inherently immortal) cuts right to the heart of all ECT doctrine as does his take on what “destroy” really means (or should mean).

I literally have no idea what makes Biblically astute people think that souls are created immortal. But so many, many do. (Not all though!) Some extremely bright and knowledgeable people as well. Obviously Mr. Gill is one of them. Let me backtrack and recant a little here. I guess I do have an ‘idea’ what makes people think souls are created inherently immortal, as I was one of them for most of my life. I guess I’d just been taught it my whole life by others. Just kind of passed down from my teachers indirectly, so to speak. I remember the tail end of the big controversy about science confirming a beginning to the universe. People fought long/hard for an “immortal” universe for a reason. They are still doing it for souls.

However, the Biblical Scriptures for any inherent immortality to our created souls, apart from Christ, is zilch, NADA. And what’s worse, is there are so many Scriptures that directly teach against it (OT and NT) starting at Genesis’s Tree of Life and throughout the Bible.

Romans 2:7 (LEB) to those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life,
2 Timothy 1:10 (LEB) our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel,​

There is not much evidence in the Bible for ECT. As I said correctly there’s only that one passage (Rev 20:10) that speaks of eternal torment/torture as a final punishment to begin with and it’s, in my opinion, clearly about the Devil and his angels and not about humans.

But if that is slim evidence for ECT, then there is even less for this Greek philosophical idea that there’s immortality to our souls. But it’s so, so prevalent in people’s pre-suppositions starting around 300-400 A.D. and carrying right on through till today.

Anyway, back to Matt 10:28; Fear the second death (His Wrath, His punishment, whatever that is?) not the first death, was Jesus’ warning in Matt 10:28.

Now we should be discussing what the very punishment is, not whether this passage is on topic or not, according to Mr. Gill.

And brother isn't God's Wrath, His punishment a consuming fire? Which brings me to my reply to another point you made about “the bush”:

Yes, I am also aware that God protected the bush and it's branches from His Fire in the Exodus account. That's why the text had to tell us the bush DID NOT burn up. Otherwise the reader would conclude that God burned a bush up as He talked to Moses (the leader of His protected people).

The burning bush fire (that did NOT get consumed) is NOT said to be the example to use for the final judgment, the final punishment of the wicked by Peter and Jude, now is it? Although it may very well have foreshadowed God's protection of His people from His fire. Talk about using a verse out of context.

Again, quote a Scripture that says human wicked spirits live on in torment in Hell or the LoF and you'll have some evidence that I would consider good evidence.

 

[chessman]

Jesus sentenced those whom He cursed to the same everlasting punishment as the devil and his angels -
JLB

Well (as Regan would say), Jesus sentenced the wicked humans to the same 'place' (the LoF) as them, yes. But that place was prepared for the Devil and his angles. Then He says that place is the wicked’s 2nd death. (think Body and Soul of Matt 10:28)

What makes you think they (their soul/spirit) survives living in that Lake of Fire, which wasn't even prepared for them in the first place and the wicked do NOT have eternal life?

I'm no fish. Without SCUBA, I wouldn't survive more than a minute or two if I were tossed in a lake with a milestone around my neck. I'm not built to survive that environment.

We humans live upon a very thin layer of the Earth in 21% oxygen (+/- a few percentage points). The rest of the universe (the vast, vast majority of it) we wouldn't survive one second in.

I think you assume spirits/souls are immortal, to be frank and cut to the chase here. I don’t.

Does the false prophet who is human get burned up and cease to exist?
JLB

To my reasoning, The False Prophet is not a human within John’s vision thus your question is presumptive and I cannot answer it. Plus, we’ve been politely asked to avoid further discussion, I guess, on this issue. So, I don’t know how to respond further other than to say my evidence that The False Prophet is still left in that post of mine.

However, without getting off-topic toward anything other than whether The Beast/The False Prophet are humans or not, I noticed that you didn’t indicate that you presume The Beast, is a human. What makes you think that The Beast is not human (if you do presume that). Is not the same evidence there for The False Prophet being one of the Devil’s angles that is also there for The Beast? Or is it simply because John calls him/what “a beast” versus a “prophet”?

Plus, as you consider providing any Biblical evidence(s) for John’s horse riders being humans (either one or two humans, out of billions of them) consider providing any criticisms for my lines of evidences toward why we should actually think they miss out on the Judgment.

Then consider explaining via Scripture why we should think the fate of the Devil and his angles are in any way meant to be directly analogous to the wicked human’s fate.

But let me respectfully answer your question, with the caveat that The False Prophet is just as much one of his angles as The Beast is;

I don’t know. I suppose it certainly does say they will be there in torment forever and ever. So maybe ECT is true for the Devil and his angels. (Yes, I know that opens the window for ECT to be true for the wicked humans as well).

It does sound that way to me (from those passages) about the Devil.etc.. Plus, we do have them ‘chained’ there for some time. Plus, we have demons begging Jesus not to torment them prior to their time. And all that.

However, I DO NOT think their punishment is necessarily the same result as the wicked sinners punishment is. In fact, I think there is good Biblical evidence that their punishment IS NOT the same as it is for humans. For many reasons I will not get into as that’s enough for one post. (But think about Jesus, the Gospel and the God-Man)

 

[JLB]

Chessman said -

Again, quote a Scripture that says human wicked spirits live on in torment in Hell or the LoF and you'll have some evidence that I would consider good evidence.

I will quote scriptures that teach us wicked spirits continue to exist in torment in fire. Not saying they "live" on, but continue to exist and are conscience of their torment.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 12:10

Notice that both the devil and the false prophet suffer the same fate.

The false prophet is a human and the devil is an angel, yet there is no difference in the fate that they must suffer.

The false prophet gives us a foundational example as a precedent, that human that are sentenced to the same fate as the devil, continue to exist in the fire and brimstone, and continue to be tormented day and night without rest.


Now we will refer to the words of Jesus to compare His language with Revelation 12:10.


Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41,46

Notice that those whom Jesus sentenced, are assigned to the same punishment as the devil.

Also, we see that the punishment is everlasting as is the fire by which the punishment is is administered.

These two scriptures from Matthew and Revelation are the foundation by which we must build any doctrine about the existence of wicked humans beings after their bodies have died, and are judged.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Chessman said -

Then consider explaining via Scripture why we should think the fate of the Devil and his angles are in any way meant to be directly analogous to the wicked human’s fate.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41,46

Clear enough!

JLB

 

[JLB]

Chessman said -

To my reasoning, The False Prophet is not a human

Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20

The false prophet is human.

Unless you can provide a scripture that shows us false prophets are not human.

The false prophet works signs that human beings could see and be deceived by.

Cast alive indicates they were alive with a body and spirit.

The body without the spirit is dead.

These were cast alive into the lake of fire.

They were humans.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Clear enough!
JLB

There are many things that are clear enough, yes. The ECT of humans and the humanness attributed to John’s The False Prophet are not included in that list.

There's nothing in Rev 19:20 that leads me to believe The False Prophet is human.

Were you going to answer any of my questions? The most direct/important being:

Why do you think The False Prophet is allowed to miss out on the Judgment with the rest of the wicked humans?