How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[MarkT]

Interesting, but I think they will be current characters of that time, whenever that day is.

The day is today Stan. The word of God is eternal.

I believe Darwin and Mohammed are in Hades, in prison, but their spirit is alive and well in the world today on account of their word, and they are deceiving many.

 

[chessman]

The false prophet is human.
JLB

Why do you think The False Prophet is allowed to miss out on the Judgment with the rest of the wicked humans?

Are you going to answer, or do you need a little more time?

 

[Stan1953]

(Post removed. Simply too many ToS violations here in this long post to even try to clean it up. Obadiah.)

 

[Stan1953]

The day is today Stan. The word of God is eternal.

I understand what you said, but I don't understand this reply. This is talking about salvation, not Revelation.

 

[Obadiah]

There is a saying: "A word to the wise is sufficient". There are many in this forum with much wisdom, so I trust this thread can continue now without the personal insults and ToS violations. Thank you to everyone who contributes their viewpoints and wisdom.

Obadiah.

 

[chessman]

How about this as foundational?
Premise 1. God’s word is true and consistently logical.
Premise 2. God’s word says that ALL ungodly people must appear before the judgment seat of Christ on the day of judgment.
Premise 3. The False Prophet does NOT appear before the Judgment seat of Christ on the day of judgment.
Conclusion: Therefore The False Prophet is NOT a human.

Support for Premise 2:

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this, judgment,
2 Peter 2:9 (LEB) then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to reserve the unrighteous to be punished at the day of judgment,
2 Peter 3:7 (LEB) But by the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.​

[notice it doesn’t say anything about the destruction of ungodly angles]

Matthew 12:36 (LEB) But I tell you that every worthless word that they [evil persons] speak, people will give an account for it on the day of judgment!
Romans 2:3 (LEB) But do you think this, O man who passes judgment on those who do such things, and who does the same things, that you will escape the judgment of God?​

There is a day (a single day) of judgment and punishment for all the unrighteous/ungodly people to give an account for every worthless word. I mean that’s what these verses say. The False Prophet cannot be sent to the LoF forever prior to the judgment seat if it is a person. Plain and simple logic. Yet we have Jesus (through John) telling us this False Prophet thing, with frogs coming out of his mouth, is sent to the LoF forever, prior to the GWTJ. Jesus doesn’t make mistakes.

Support for Premise 3:

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs before him, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
​

Now we get to the GWTJ were all the wicked are judged.

Rev 20:
The Judgment at the Great White Throne
11 And I saw a great white throne and the one who was seated on it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and a place was not found for them. 12 And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne, and books were opened. …
and each one was judged according to their deeds. 14 …
15 And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

Well guess what, The False Prophet had long since been thrown into the LoF prior to the Devil’s release and was sent there forever! It misses out on the GWTJ. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that The False Prophet is not a member of all the “ungodly people” of our ECT topic.

It is the logical conclusion from Premises 1, 2 and 3 that The False Prophet cannot be a member of the “ungodly people” (human) as you are claiming.

Which premise to my logical conclusion would you say is false?

As you have admitted that you must build the ECT doctrine on this “foundation” of yours, that The False Prophet is human, what does that do to your foundation for ECT?

The false prophet gives us a foundational example as a precedent, that human that are sentenced to the same fate as the devil, continue to exist in the fire and brimstone, and continue to be tormented day and night without rest.

These two scriptures from Matthew and Revelation are the foundation by which we must build any doctrine about the existence of wicked humans beings after their bodies have died, and are judged.
JLB

Your statement:

The false prophet is human.

is a false statement and thus your foundation is false.

Notice also that you said that it is these two scriptures that “MUST” build the ECT doctrine. You are right about that. There is therefore no other valid and true logical foundational argument for the ECT doctrine. The False Prophet is NOT a human via the Scripturally based logical argument I just presented.

Positive Scriptural case that The False Prophet is meant to be understood as a demon (Devil's angel):

Revelation 16:13-14 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs. For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.

The frogs are interpreted for us as the spirits of demons. That proves The False Prophet is a demon.

Who told you it was a human? You need to re-think that.

 

[JLB]

How about this as foundational?
Premise 1. God’s word is true and consistently logical.
Premise 2. God’s word says that ALL ungodly people must appear before the judgment seat of Christ on the day of judgment.
Premise 3. The False Prophet does NOT appear before the Judgment seat of Christ on the day of judgment.
Conclusion: Therefore The False Prophet is NOT a human.

Support for Premise 2:

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this, judgment,
2 Peter 2:9 (LEB) then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to reserve the unrighteous to be punished at the day of judgment,
2 Peter 3:7 (LEB) But by the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.​

[notice it doesn’t say anything about the destruction of ungodly angles]

Matthew 12:36 (LEB) But I tell you that every worthless word that they [evil persons] speak, people will give an account for it on the day of judgment!
Romans 2:3 (LEB) But do you think this, O man who passes judgment on those who do such things, and who does the same things, that you will escape the judgment of God?​

There is a day (a single day) of judgment and punishment for all the unrighteous/ungodly people to give an account for every worthless word. I mean that’s what these verses say. The False Prophet cannot be sent to the LoF forever prior to the judgment seat if it is a person. Plain and simple logic. Yet we have Jesus (through John) telling us this False Prophet thing, with frogs coming out of his mouth, is sent to the LoF forever, prior to the GWTJ. Jesus doesn’t make mistakes.

Support for Premise 3:

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs before him, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
​

Now we get to the GWTJ were all the wicked are judged.

Rev 20:
The Judgment at the Great White Throne
11 And I saw a great white throne and the one who was seated on it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and a place was not found for them. 12 And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne, and books were opened. …
and each one was judged according to their deeds. 14 …
15 And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

Well guess what, The False Prophet had long since been thrown into the LoF prior to the Devil’s release and was sent there forever! It misses out on the GWTJ. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that The False Prophet is not a member of all the “ungodly people” of our ECT topic.

It is the logical conclusion from Premises 1, 2 and 3 that The False Prophet cannot be a member of the “ungodly people” (human) as you are claiming.

Which premise to my logical conclusion would you say is false?

As you have admitted that you must build the ECT doctrine on this “foundation” of yours, that The False Prophet is human, what does that do to your foundation for ECT?


Your statement:
is a false statement and thus your foundation is false.

Notice also that you said that it is these two scriptures that “MUST” build the ECT doctrine. You are right about that. There is therefore no other valid and true logical foundational argument for the ECT doctrine. The False Prophet is NOT a human via the Scripturally based logical argument I just presented.

Positive Scriptural case that The False Prophet is meant to be understood as a demon (Devil's angel):

Revelation 16:13-14 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs. For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.

The frogs are interpreted for us as the spirits of demons. That proves The False Prophet is a demon.

Who told you it was a human? You need to re-think that.

The false prophet has a demon spirit, and is possessed with a demon spirit.

When the demon spirit came out of the mouth of the false prophet, did he die? The demon was not his spirit then!

If the demon that came out of the mouth of the false prophet was "his spirit", rather than a demon spirit in him, then his body would have died.

Jesus cast out seven demon spirits out of Mary, but Mary wasn't a demon.

Mary is human.

The false prophet is human.

The false prophet worked miracles that people could see and he deceived them by these miracles

For a person to be a human and be declared living or alive they must have a spirit and a body.

Just as the body without the spirit is dead.

Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The false prophet is a human being.

The false prophet has a demon spirit in him.


JLB

 

[chessman]

The false prophet is human.
JLB

I presented a valid logical argument that negates this claim. Repeating your claim is not evidence.
Which Premise of my valid logical argument that I presented (that The False Prophet is NOT a human) are you disagreeing with and by what refutation using Scriptures to prove your case?
I presented a valid argument against your claim that The False Prophet is a human, first for a reason. I even asked for you to support your claim first as you are the one making the claim. You did not defend it, you just keep repeating it.
However, to progress, it’s first necessary for you to recognize that your “The False Prophet is human” claim is just that. Your claim. It might be right and it might not be right. I’m willing to be proven wrong. Are you?
You can’t just say “The False Prophet is human” and then go on to make further foundational doctrine(s) from that claim. John might or he might not have meant The False Prophet to be understood as a human. Let’s work through that claim of yours first.
We all have pre-suppositions. It’s unavoidable. However, if you want to determine (and debate) the truthfulness of our pre-supposition (The False Prophet is human, in this case), then use the rules of logic to establish it’s truthfulness. Especially if you’re going to go on further and build an ECT doctrine off of it. Remember, you said it was foundational to your ECT doctrine.
And for us Christians, The Logos is especially helpful to defend your case.
I have tentatively taken the opposite side of your foundational claim, “The False Prophet is human” and have presented two arguments for my side. (one negating your claim and one supporting mine) I’m willing to be proven wrong, also. But you’ve not done anything toward my first argument whatsoever that I can see.
You go on in your reply post to ignore my negation argument and still hold to the truth of your pre-supposition and attempt to refute my The False Prophet is a demon argument based on a claim that has not be proven true.
Why not deal first with whether it is in fact true or not that The False Prophet is human.
Do you have an answer for “Why do you think The False Prophet misses out on the day of the Judgment?”
WRT your evidence against my claim that The False Prophet is a demon:

If the demon that came out of the mouth of the false prophet was "his spirit", rather than a demon spirit in him, then his body would have died.
JLB

What body? Aren’t you simply assuming that The False Prophet had a human body?
If you want to speak as if it’s a given that The False Prophet is a human with a body, then why not first defend your assumption and show how my logical argument against it falls apart?
A demon did not come out of the mouth of The False Prophet, frogs did. John says the frogs are unclean spirits. The unclean spirits came out of the mouths of demons, not humans. There is not one mention whatsoever of a human (or Mary) within Rev 16:13-14..
Why in the world do you cram a human being into Rev 16? It makes no sense to me.
Let’s look at Rev 16:13-14 again. Can you show me one glimmer of a “human being” in Rev 16?
Revelation 16:13-14 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs.
For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.
What John saw via his vision:
1. The Dragon
2. The Beast
3. The False Prophet
4. Three frogs
What John mentions these visions represent:
A. Unclean spirits
B. Demons
Where is a human ever even mentioned in this defining and critical verse?
It says it right there. The unclean spirits (The Frogs) were the spirits of the demons (The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet. I don’t understand where you come up with a human body at all. Can you explain it? Aren’t you just assuming that’s what John meant, contrary to what he says that he meant? That’s what it looks like to me.

The false prophet has a demon spirit, and is possessed with a demon spirit.

If you assume The False Prophet is a human, I guess I can see your take here. I don’t make that assumption. Especially since there is not one mention whatsoever in Rev 16:13-14 of humans.
Technically The False Prophet had an unclean spirit (a frog) come out of him. Nothing about being “possessed with a demon” in the text.

When the demon spirit came out of the mouth of the false prophet, did he die?

Again, this doesn’t technically match up to the text.
An unclean spirit (a frog) came out of the mouth of The False Prophet (a demon). As for “did he die”, aren’t you once again simply assuming that The False Prophet is a human? It looks that way.

The demon was not his spirit then!

Now, this is technically correct. That’s my point. The frog (the unclean spirit) is NOT the Demon, now is he?

If the demon that came out of the mouth of the false prophet was "his spirit", rather than a demon spirit in him, then his body would have died.

The demon is The False Prophet and the unclean spirit (a frog) is what came out of him. Again, where do you get “then his body would have died” from? Your assuming the FP is a human.

Jesus cast out seven demon spirits out of Mary, but Mary wasn't a demon.

Mary wasn’t a demon, right. But Rev 16:13-14 doesn’t mention Mary, now does it? And technically Jesus cast out seven demons from Mary, not seven demon spirits. But, regardless what’s your argument here?

Mary is human.
The false prophet is human.

Really? That’s it? Mary is a human, thus The False Prophet is a human? I don’t see any logic in that. Not to mention you cannot use the claim within your premises that support the claim. It’s called circular reasoning.
But I certainly see a lot of presupposition there. Regardless, John’s vision is of Frogs and dragons and such. Why bring in the long ending of Mark?

The false prophet worked miracles that people could see and he deceived them by these miracles.

Okay. I agree. However, I don’t see how that proves anything about what John says The False Prophet is in Rev 16:13-14. Are you suggesting that demons cannot deceive people?

For a person to be a human and be declared living or alive they must have a spirit and a body.
Just as the body without the spirit is dead.

Okay, I agree again. With these two statements But there’s not one stich of a mention of a human or for that matter anything other than an unclean spirit mentioned in Rev 16:12-14. Aren’t you still assuming The False Prophet is a human? But let’s go with something we can both agree one here. These two statements are accurate to the Word. Thus they are logical and true. Maybe that’s why I like them so much, IDK.

For a person to be a human and be declared living or alive they must have a spirit and a body.
Just as the body without the spirit is dead.
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Actually you just came up with another proof that The False Prophet is NOT a human. Think about it. The FP’s unclean spirit (the frogs) came out of the FP’s mouth way earlier in John’s vision. Wouldn’t that mean it should be declared dead, if it were human? However, the FP was seen by John’s vision as being cast alive later on into the Fire. Good one!

The false prophet is a human being.
The false prophet has a demon spirit in him.
JLB

Oh no, back to your unproven pre-supposition again.
Again, Rev 16:13-14 says to me that The FP (the demon) had a frog (an unclean spirit) leave his mouth. It’s our job to understand what that literally means, not assume the FP is a demon possessed human being.
Especially since there’s a valid logical argument that seems to prove that the FP cannot be a human. Will you address that argument?

 

[MarkT]

How about this as foundational?
Premise 1. God’s word is true and consistently logical.
Premise 2. God’s word says that ALL ungodly people must appear before the judgment seat of Christ on the day of judgment.
Premise 3. The False Prophet does NOT appear before the Judgment seat of Christ on the day of judgment.
Conclusion: Therefore The False Prophet is NOT a human.

Were the prophets not men? Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah; were they not men? Jesus warned us there would be false prophets and false teachers. Are you expecting spirits? When Jesus returns he is going to be judging the living not the dead. Of course they will be men and the Lord Jesus will cast them alive into hell when he returns.

The devil and his angels the false prophets and the false teachers are already judged. So they will already be in the lake of fire when the dead are resurrected in the second resurrection. They won't be judged at the second resurrection because they are already judged and in hell.

 

[chessman]

The devil and his angels the false prophets and the false teachers are already judged.

So you think there is more than one judgment day? Then you must think all these false prophets like Mohammad have already stood before Christ in Judgment on His throne. What, did they make a side trip to His throne on their way to Hell? Where's that in Scripture. My Premise 2 has not been shown to be false via any Scriptures.

I prefer Peter's and Jesus' account. Their (all the wicked/unrighteous) judgment day awaits and is on a day when ALL stand before Christ while seated on His throne. And that they are now reserved in Hades for their judgment until that day when all are judged together. You know, those on His left.

2 Peter 2:9 (LEB) then the Lord knows how to ...reserve the unrighteous to be punished at the day of judgment,
2 Peter 3:7 (LEB) But by the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.
Matthew 12:36 (LEB) But I tell you that every worthless word that they [evil persons] speak, people will give an account for it on the day of judgment!​

Notice, there were already many false teachers and false prophets dead in Peter's and Jesus' time. Oh, and the Devil was still around influencing too. How in the world could the Devil already be judged then or now yet still be influencing people?

 

[JLB]

Are you going to answer, or do you need a little more time?

He like those that had kindled the Lord's anger in the wilderness were cast alive into the pit.

31 Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly. Numbers 16:31-33

Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20

If the Lord decides to cast a person into hell alive, then that is His judgement.

The false prophet is human.

If you have an example of a false prophet that is not human in the scriptures then please show us this example.

If not, then then we conclude the the term prophet of false prophet is a reference to a human being.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I presented a valid logical argument that negates this claim. Repeating your claim is not evidence.
Which Premise of my valid logical argument that I presented (that The False Prophet is NOT a human) are you disagreeing with and by what refutation using Scriptures to prove your case?
I presented a valid argument against your claim that The False Prophet is a human, first for a reason. I even asked for you to support your claim first as you are the one making the claim. You did not defend it, you just keep repeating it.
However, to progress, it’s first necessary for you to recognize that your “The False Prophet is human” claim is just that. Your claim. It might be right and it might not be right. I’m willing to be proven wrong. Are you?
You can’t just say “The False Prophet is human” and then go on to make further foundational doctrine(s) from that claim. John might or he might not have meant The False Prophet to be understood as a human. Let’s work through that claim of yours first.
We all have pre-suppositions. It’s unavoidable. However, if you want to determine (and debate) the truthfulness of our pre-supposition (The False Prophet is human, in this case), then use the rules of logic to establish it’s truthfulness. Especially if you’re going to go on further and build an ECT doctrine off of it. Remember, you said it was foundational to your ECT doctrine.
And for us Christians, The Logos is especially helpful to defend your case.
I have tentatively taken the opposite side of your foundational claim, “The False Prophet is human” and have presented two arguments for my side. (one negating your claim and one supporting mine) I’m willing to be proven wrong, also. But you’ve not done anything toward my first argument whatsoever that I can see.
You go on in your reply post to ignore my negation argument and still hold to the truth of your pre-supposition and attempt to refute my The False Prophet is a demon argument based on a claim that has not be proven true.
Why not deal first with whether it is in fact true or not that The False Prophet is human.
Do you have an answer for “Why do you think The False Prophet misses out on the day of the Judgment?”
WRT your evidence against my claim that The False Prophet is a demon:
What body? Aren’t you simply assuming that The False Prophet had a human body?
If you want to speak as if it’s a given that The False Prophet is a human with a body, then why not first defend your assumption and show how my logical argument against it falls apart?
A demon did not come out of the mouth of The False Prophet, frogs did. John says the frogs are unclean spirits. The unclean spirits came out of the mouths of demons, not humans. There is not one mention whatsoever of a human (or Mary) within Rev 16:13-14..
Why in the world do you cram a human being into Rev 16? It makes no sense to me.
Let’s look at Rev 16:13-14 again. Can you show me one glimmer of a “human being” in Rev 16?
Revelation 16:13-14 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs.
For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.
What John saw via his vision:
1. The Dragon
2. The Beast
3. The False Prophet
4. Three frogs
What John mentions these visions represent:
A. Unclean spirits
B. Demons
Where is a human ever even mentioned in this defining and critical verse?
It says it right there. The unclean spirits (The Frogs) were the spirits of the demons (The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet. I don’t understand where you come up with a human body at all. Can you explain it? Aren’t you just assuming that’s what John meant, contrary to what he says that he meant? That’s what it looks like to me.
If you assume The False Prophet is a human, I guess I can see your take here. I don’t make that assumption. Especially since there is not one mention whatsoever in Rev 16:13-14 of humans.
Technically The False Prophet had an unclean spirit (a frog) come out of him. Nothing about being “possessed with a demon” in the text.
Again, this doesn’t technically match up to the text.
An unclean spirit (a frog) came out of the mouth of The False Prophet (a demon). As for “did he die”, aren’t you once again simply assuming that The False Prophet is a human? It looks that way.

Now, this is technically correct. That’s my point. The frog (the unclean spirit) is NOT the Demon, now is he?

The demon is The False Prophet and the unclean spirit (a frog) is what came out of him. Again, where do you get “then his body would have died” from? Your assuming the FP is a human.
Mary wasn’t a demon, right. But Rev 16:13-14 doesn’t mention Mary, now does it? And technically Jesus cast out seven demons from Mary, not seven demon spirits. But, regardless what’s your argument here?

Really? That’s it? Mary is a human, thus The False Prophet is a human? I don’t see any logic in that. Not to mention you cannot use the claim within your premises that support the claim. It’s called circular reasoning.
But I certainly see a lot of presupposition there. Regardless, John’s vision is of Frogs and dragons and such. Why bring in the long ending of Mark?
Okay. I agree. However, I don’t see how that proves anything about what John says The False Prophet is in Rev 16:13-14. Are you suggesting that demons cannot deceive people?

Okay, I agree again. With these two statements But there’s not one stich of a mention of a human or for that matter anything other than an unclean spirit mentioned in Rev 16:12-14. Aren’t you still assuming The False Prophet is a human? But let’s go with something we can both agree one here. These two statements are accurate to the Word. Thus they are logical and true. Maybe that’s why I like them so much, IDK.

Actually you just came up with another proof that The False Prophet is NOT a human. Think about it. The FP’s unclean spirit (the frogs) came out of the FP’s mouth way earlier in John’s vision. Wouldn’t that mean it should be declared dead, if it were human? However, the FP was seen by John’s vision as being cast alive later on into the Fire. Good one!

Oh no, back to your unproven pre-supposition again.
Again, Rev 16:13-14 says to me that The FP (the demon) had a frog (an unclean spirit) leave his mouth. It’s our job to understand what that literally means, not assume the FP is a demon possessed human being.
Especially since there’s a valid logical argument that seems to prove that the FP cannot be a human. Will you address that argument?

Are you suggesting that because a person has a demon, that they themselves don't have a human spirit?

The false prophet is a person that can be seen by people, not an invisible demon that can not be seen.

1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 13:1-3

A prophet is someone who SPEAKS FORTH and the people hear what the prophet or false prophet says.

A true prophet leads people to God and exhorts them to follow God.

A false prophet leads people from God. ...'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,

The false prophet is human, and working his signs by a demon spirit.


JLB

 

[chessman]

If you have an example of a false prophet that is not human in the scriptures then please show us this example.

If not, then then we conclude the the term prophet of false prophet is a reference to a human being.


JLB

Example:

Genesis 3:3-4 but from the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God said, ‘You shall not eat from it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die’ [true prophecy].” But the serpent said to the woman, “You shall not surely die" [false prophecy]
​

My conclusion is a term such as false prophet means what it means. Any creature that speaks falsely for God's word, human creature or demon creature. In the case of John's The False Prophet, it's clear that he means it to be a demon creature by the imagery of frogs coming out of it's mouth. Among other reasons such as The False Prophet missing out on the GWTJ day.

​

You still didn't really answer the question. If God sent humans to Hell forever pre-ressurection, pre-judgment day, then why does He teach a universal standing before His throne of all wicked humans at the GWTJ?

Even in the passages you mentioned, there's no judgment before Him on His throne or resurrection for that matter. It would mean there's a conflict between Scriptures. I don't like that.

 

[chessman]

Are you suggesting that because a person has a demon, that they themselves don't have a human spirit?


JLB

No.

But I am suggesting that since John visioned the unclean spirits (frogs) coming out of The False Prophet's mouth then going on to influence kings on Earth (humans), it's clear what he means. If TFP was a human, then why would the unclean spirits come out of him? They'd have already found a good home.

 

[JLB]

Example:

Genesis 3:3-4 but from the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God said, ‘You shall not eat from it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die’ [true prophecy].” But the serpent said to the woman, “You shall not surely die" [false prophecy]
​

My conclusion is a term such as false prophet means what it means. Any creature that speaks falsely for God's word, human creature or demon creature. In the case of John's The False Prophet, it's clear that he means it to be a demon creature by the imagery of frogs coming out of it's mouth. Among other reasons such as The False Prophet missing out on the GWTJ day.

​

You still didn't really answer the question. If God sent humans to Hell forever pre-ressurection, pre-judgment day, then why does He teach a universal standing before His throne of all wicked humans at the GWTJ?

Even in the passages you mentioned, there's no judgment before Him on His throne or resurrection for that matter. It would mean there's a conflict between Scriptures. I don't like that.

Sorry bro, Satan appeared to Jesus and tempted Him as well.

Satan is a fallen angel.

Please show from the scriptures where Satan is called a false prophet!

The false prophet deceives people by the signs that he works.

These signs are visible to the ones being deceived.

False Prophet - Strong's Number: 5578 - Pseudoprophetes

Definition

1. one who, acting the part of a divinely inspired prophet, utters falsehoods under the name of divine prophecies
2. a false prophet

This word is used 11 times in the New Testament. It refers to humans.

The fact is the people whom Jesus cursed will also suffer the same fate as the devil -

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

into everlasting punishment = Tormented day and night forever and ever.


People will suffer the same fate as spirits, everlasting punishment


JLB

 

[JLB]

No.

But I am suggesting that since John visioned the unclean spirits (frogs) coming out of The False Prophet's mouth then going on to influence kings on Earth (humans), it's clear what he means. If TFP was a human, then why would the unclean spirits come out of him? They'd have already found a good home.

More speculation?

Here is what Jesus taught -

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41,46

 

[chessman]

Psalm 63:11b Everyone who swears an oath by him will boast,because the mouth of the liars will be stopped.
​

ECT has liars (humans) continuing as liars.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Revelation 16:13-14 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs. For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.
​

So, you are speculating that my Premise 2 is false by speculating that not all humans appear at the GWTJ (contrary to Scripture) and speculating that all 11 NT usages of 'false prophets' is a reference to humans. How about all uses of 'false prophets' in the NT are humans except the ones that have frogs coming out of their mouths that are specifically called the unclean spirits of demons?

Once again, do you deny the Scriptures that tell us ALL the wicked appear at the GWTJ (my premise 2)?

 

[MarkT]

So you think there is more than one judgment day? Then you must think all these false prophets like Mohammad have already stood before Christ in Judgment on His throne. What, did they make a side trip to His throne on their way to Hell? Where's that in Scripture. My Premise 2 has not been shown to be false via any Scriptures.

I prefer Peter's and Jesus' account. Their (all the wicked/unrighteous) judgment day awaits and is on a day when ALL stand before Christ while seated on His throne. And that they are now reserved in Hades for their judgment until that day when all are judged together. You know, those on His left.

2 Peter 2:9 (LEB) then the Lord knows how to ...reserve the unrighteous to be punished at the day of judgment,
2 Peter 3:7 (LEB) But by the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.
Matthew 12:36 (LEB) But I tell you that every worthless word that they [evil persons] speak, people will give an account for it on the day of judgment!

Notice, there were already many false teachers and false prophets dead in Peter's and Jesus' time. Oh, and the Devil was still around influencing too. How in the world could the Devil already be judged then or now yet still be influencing people?

The judgment day you are referring to is the second resurrection, the resurrection of the dead. The devil and the false prophet and the beast are already in the lake of fire at this point. They are not resurrected from the lake of fire.

The devil and his angles were sentenced to the lake of fire long ago. The execution of the sentence comes later. That's when they are thrown alive into the lake of fire. This happens at the coming of the Lord. Now, as the Sadducees and the Pharisees were vipers, the devil and his angels, the false prophet and the beast, will be men. They will be found in human form as Jesus was found in human form.

 

[JLB]

Psalm 63:11b Everyone who swears an oath by him will boast,because the mouth of the liars will be stopped.
​

ECT has liars (humans) continuing as liars.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Revelation 16:13-14 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs. For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.
​

So, you are speculating that my Premise 2 is false by speculating that not all humans appear at the GWTJ (contrary to Scripture) and speculating that all 11 NT usages of 'false prophets' is a reference to humans. How about all uses of 'false prophets' in the NT are humans except the ones that have frogs coming out of their mouths that are specifically called the unclean spirits of demons?

Once again, do you deny the Scriptures that tell us ALL the wicked appear at the GWTJ (my premise 2)?

All prophets and false prophets are men.

Including Jesus!


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

I've been wanting to start this thread for a while as it seems like most of us have debated Conditional Immortality(Annihilationism) and Eternal Conscious Torment long enough to know that we disagree. So I am interested in how yall think this affects the Gospel. I have heard the C.I side say that the idea of a God who tortures the unsaved for eternity causes people to reject Christianity because it doesn't make sense that the Bible claims God to be "just" and at the same time do this. I believe E.C.T to be true but I believe that what ever the torture or punishment is, is not necessarily burning alive like many claim. I think the most important part of it to be understood is that the unsaved will be conscious of their separation from God. I have heard from the E.C.T side say that Annihilation makes hell sound "not so bad after all" and when people hear this they might decide they would rather enjoy their time here on earth doing what they want instead of giving their life to the Lord. My view on this as of right now is that neither Annihilation or E.C.T will ultimately cause a person to accept or reject Christ. It will be their desire to live according to their own will and not God's. I think this makes sense considering God does not want us to be autonomous. Anyway I don't know of any scripture right off hand that would support this, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Something interesting that I have noticed on this website is that their are doctrines that are only allowed to be discussed in the Other Religions section and apparently this is not one of them.

Jeff,
If one stops and thinks about conditional immortality, It mirrors works based salvation. Conditional immortality says," a person can pay for their own sins by some or a lot of punishment, then God will annihilate them and Gods Justice is rendered satisfied."

The deal is, God requires innocent blood for the penalty we owe. If a person does not have the innocent blood(Christ) one does not have forgiveness and cannot pay the penalty. Even an eternity of suffering does not pay the penalty for us. The only acceptable payment is the blood of an INNOCENT man and the only sinless man was Jesus Christ. Even after a million years in the lake of fire, one is still guilty and has not payed the penalty due.

Conditional immortality says," We can somehow pay this penalty with our own suffering and death." When in reality God requires the innocent blood of Christ and nothing else will suffice.

This is why the lake of fire is forever and ever. They went there without Christ, and their penalty can never be paid. They have no access to the innocent blood of the Lamb.