How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[chessman]

2 Peter 2:4-9 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a proclaimer of righteousness, and seven others when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly, and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly, and rescued righteous Lot, worn down by the way of life of lawless persons in licentiousness for that righteous man, as he lived among them day after day, was tormenting his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he was seeing and hearing, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to reserve the unrighteous to be punished at the day of judgment, ​

Notice the text here. The example is the destruction of the cites (not the people's state now).

The wicked people's state now is a pre-judgment state. They are reserved for a day of judgment. On that day, their punishment will be like that of Sodom's.

ECT has them judged and punished already. Serving basically the same punishment now as after they are all judged. Which is one of the reasons I think ECT IS wrong eschatology (study of things to come).

 

[MarkT]

So they live in not dying? It's nonsensical.

This makes sense.

Humans are raised from the dead and judged for their sins, as a result of their sins they are then cast into a lake of fire, which is the second death. This lake of fire, called "hell" by Jesus, is where both soul and body are destroyed by God.

The notion that they die in the second death is nonsensical. The law of sin and death exists in this world. It doesn't exist in the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the punishment. Death as we know it isn't the punishment. If they are in the lake of fire, that's the punishment. It's being there. You can't die within death. If the lake of fire is your death, that's it. This death doesn't end with death.

So when Death is cast into the eternal fire, that whole system of sin and death is destroyed. But the eternal punishment, the second death, doesn't end with the death of the individual.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The notion that they die in the second death is nonsensical.

What!? Describing someone as dead, when they have died, makes absolutely perfect sense.

The law of sin and death exists in this world. It doesn't exist in the lake of fire.

I wonder where this is found in the Bible.

Do you have some extra texts that you are finding sources from?

The lake of fire is the punishment. Death isn't the punishment.

The result of being cast into the lake of fire is death.

"The wages of sin is death."
"The soul who sins shall die."
"whoever believes shall not perish(which means to die) but have eternal life."
"repent or perish."
"fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell."
"God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die"
"Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction"

I could go on and on with texts that describe the ultimate end of the wicked being death or destruction. As everyone dies, these texts clearly are not speaking to death simply in this temporal realm.

If they are in the lake of fire, that's the punishment. It's being there. You can't die within death. If the lake of fire is your death, that's it. This death doesn't end with death.

What you said makes no sense whatsoever, and is in fact a fallacy. You are using multiple meanings of the same word in the same argument that makes it totally nonsensical.

Death that doesn't end with death? What? What you are actually describing in this argument is immortality. I whole heartily disagree that the wicked will attain immortality.

So when Death is cast into the eternal fire, that whole system of sin and death is destroyed. But the eternal punishment, the second death, doesn't end with the death of the individual.

So when the text says "the last enemy to be destroyed is death," you interpret that to basically mean, "the only enemy that will be destroyed is death, and the rest will be given immortality"?

 

[MarkT]

Here's the problem, the lake of fire was prepared for angels and the devil and his sons (Jesus called them gods), not for ordinary men. So this is no ordinary death. If the lake of fire is the second death, then your whole notion of death has to change. It's not death as we know it and death as we know it (the death of the body) does not occur in the second death. The lake of fire is eternal which means this death never ends. The punishment is eternal destruction which means the destruction never ends. There men will weep and gnash their teeth which means they will be in torment. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Rev. 14:11

Now where does it say anyone is annihilated? If the fire is everlasting Mt. 24:41 and the punishment is eternal Mt. 25:46 and the destruction is eternal 2 Thessalonians 1:9, then where does your theology come from?

 

[JLB]

Here's the problem, the lake of fire was prepared for angels and the devil and his sons (Jesus called them gods), not for ordinary men. So this is no ordinary death. If the lake of fire is the second death, then your whole notion of death has to change. It's not death as we know it and death as we know it (the death of the body) does not occur in the second death. The lake of fire is eternal which means this death never ends. The punishment is eternal destruction which means the destruction never ends. There men will weep and gnash their teeth which means they will be in torment. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Rev. 14:11

Now where does it say anyone is annihilated? If the fire is everlasting Mt. 24:41 and the punishment is eternal Mt. 25:46 and the destruction is eternal 2 Thessalonians 1:9, then where does your theology come from?

Not from the scriptures, that's for sure!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Here's the problem, the lake of fire was prepared for angels and the devil and his sons (Jesus called them gods), not for ordinary men. So this is no ordinary death. If the lake of fire is the second death, then your whole notion of death has to change. It's not death as we know it and death as we know it (the death of the body) does not occur in the second death. The lake of fire is eternal which means this death never ends. The punishment is eternal destruction which means the destruction never ends. There men will weep and gnash their teeth which means they will be in torment. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Rev. 14:11

Now where does it say anyone is annihilated? If the fire is everlasting Mt. 24:41 and the punishment is eternal Mt. 25:46 and the destruction is eternal 2 Thessalonians 1:9, then where does your theology come from?

Basically in order for ECT to be asserted, basic terms must be redefined beyond all recognition, where death = immortality.

Jesus said that both body and soul are destroyed in hell. Not just the body, but also the soul, their entire being. Or does destruction need to be redefined too.

My theology comes from all the Scriptures, not just a short-sighted view of a few proof texts.

I've addressed all of those texts in great detail in other threads, would you like me to link the arguments?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Not from the scriptures, that's for sure!

I do actually get my theology from Scriptures, but I disagree with you as to what they mean.

Can you please apologize for this dishonest representation of my view.

There is not a single belief I have about the after life that doesn't find it's source in Scripture.

 

[JLB]

I do actually get my theology from Scriptures, but I disagree with you as to what they mean.

Can you please apologize for this dishonest representation of my view.

There is not a single belief I have about the after life that doesn't find it's source in Scripture.

I was agreeing with Matk T.
My remark represents the view that I believe.

If you believe your view represents what you believe then so be it.


Jesus assigned those on His left hand the same fate as the devil.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Basically in order for ECT to be asserted, basic terms must be redefined beyond all recognition, where death = immortality.

Jesus said that both body and soul are destroyed in hell. Not just the body, but also the soul, their entire being. Or does destruction need to be redefined too.

My theology comes from all the Scriptures, not just a short-sighted view of a few proof texts.

I've addressed all of those texts in great detail in other threads, would you like me to link the arguments?

Actually I have never seen a scripture you quoted that states the person who is sentenced to everlasting punishment ceases to exist.

The devil is tormented day and night forever.

Those on Jesus' left hand are assigned to the same fate as the devil, which is being tormented day and night.

That is what the bible teaches.

These are destroyed day and night forever and ever.

Eternal destruction.

Eternal punishment.


JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I was agreeing with Matk T.
My remark represents the view that I believe.

If you believe your view represents what you believe then so be it.


Jesus assigned those on His left hand the same fate as the devil.


JLB

What you believe is wrong, we're done here. What you said was very insulting.

 

[Butch5]

Actually I have never seen a scripture you quoted that states the person who is sentenced to everlasting punishment ceases to exist.

The devil is tormented day and night forever.

Those on Jesus' left hand are assigned to the same fate as the devil, which is being tormented day and night.

That is what the bible teaches.

These are destroyed day and night forever and ever.

Eternal destruction.

Eternal punishment.


JLB

You're terms are mutually exclusive. Destruction is to bring to an end.

 

[MarkT]

To annihilate is to reduce to nothing; to put out of existence. What did Jesus mean when he said, 'destroy this temple' John 2:19? He surely didn't mean annihilate. What did he mean when he said, 'do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell' Mt. 10:28?

To destroy, to kill; that's the sense of the word. The destruction in this case is destruction by fire. But it's an eternal fire, and an eternal destruction, and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

 

[MarkT]

Basically in order for ECT to be asserted, basic terms must be redefined beyond all recognition, where death = immortality.

Jesus said that both body and soul are destroyed in hell. Not just the body, but also the soul, their entire being. Or does destruction need to be redefined too.

My theology comes from all the Scriptures, not just a short-sighted view of a few proof texts.

I've addressed all of those texts in great detail in other threads, would you like me to link the arguments?

He said, 'fear him who can destroy both in hell'. But I don't see your point. He also said, 'do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.' The soul of the wicked goes down to Hades. The soul of the righteous is saved.

OK. So Death and Hades are associated with the 1st death. Let's say a saint is killed. That's the 1st death. Then he is resurrected in the 1st resurrection; the second death has no power over him. The second death is the lake of fire and eternal punishment. So the second death is not like the 1st death. I agree both soul and body will be destroyed in hell (or maybe I should say I agree God can destroy both body and soul in hell if that is what he declared. But is that what he declared?) Jesus will say, 'depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire' Mt. 25:41 He said 'they will go away into eternal punishment' Mt. 25:46 and 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched' Mark 9:48 This tells us a lot more than just both body and soul are destroyed. And when you see words like 'eternal punishment', he is talking about the punishment itself being eternal. And when you see, 'They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction' 2 Thessalonians 1:9, you get a much better picture of the destruction. They will go into the fire. There they will weep and gnash their teeth. Mt. 13:42,50 Where their worm does not die. There is imagery; it may be the worm at the core of an apple. Their core being, their worm, does not die.

So this is the rather frightening prospect of eternal punishment which takes into account what Jesus taught and it agrees with the apostles writings.

 

[Butch5]

He said, 'fear him who can destroy both in hell'. But I don't see your point. He also said, 'do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.' The soul of the wicked goes down to Hades. The soul of the righteous is saved.

OK. So Death and Hades are associated with the 1st death. Let's say a saint is killed. That's the 1st death. Then he is resurrected in the 1st resurrection; the second death has no power over him. The second death is the lake of fire and eternal punishment. So the second death is not like the 1st death. I agree both soul and body will be destroyed in hell (or maybe I should say I agree God can destroy both body and soul in hell if that is what he declared. But is that what he declared?) Jesus will say, 'depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire' Mt. 25:41 He said 'they will go away into eternal punishment' Mt. 25:46 and 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched' Mark 9:48 This tells us a lot more than just both body and soul are destroyed. And when you see words like 'eternal punishment', he is talking about the punishment itself being eternal. And when you see, 'They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction' 2 Thessalonians 1:9, you get a much better picture of the destruction. They will go into the fire. There they will weep and gnash their teeth. Mt. 13:42,50 Where their worm does not die. There is imagery; it may be the worm at the core of an apple. Their core being, their worm, does not die.

So this is the rather frightening prospect of eternal punishment which takes into account what Jesus taught and it agrees with the apostles writings.

Mark,

All of this has been addressed in the CI post. The first problem with the ECT doctrine is that it "assumes" that there is a part of man that can exist after death. This idea comes from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. If you look at the creation of man in Gen 2:7 it says that God formed the "man" from the dust of the ground. So, whatever man is he is from the elements of the ground. God then breathed His Neshama of Lives into the man and the man "became" a living soul. From this passage it is quite clear that man (body) + breath of lives = Living soul. Solomon says that when the man dies the body returns to the dust and the spirit (breath of Lives) goes back to God. That means there is nothing left to live on after death. We can go over the passages you've posted if you'd like but as I said they have been addressed.

It's also been shown that "aionios" doesn't mean eternal. You mentioned the punishment of eternal fire. Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah were examples of eternal (aionious) fire and yet they are not still burning today.

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:6-7 NKJ)

Jude says Sodom and Gomorrah suffered aionios fire, they are not burning for eternity but rather have been completely destroyed. As I understand it archaeologists today are not even sure where these two cities were located because they have been so utterly destroyed they don't have any archaeological evidence. There are numerous accounts in Scripture that use the word "aion" for things that came to an end.

 

[Butch5]

To annihilate is to reduce to nothing; to put out of existence. What did Jesus mean when he said, 'destroy this temple' John 2:19? He surely didn't mean annihilate. What did he mean when he said, 'do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell' Mt. 10:28?

To destroy, to kill; that's the sense of the word. The destruction in this case is destruction by fire. But it's an eternal fire, and an eternal destruction, and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Those who suffer the second death do cease to exist.

 

[MarkT]

Mark,

All of this has been addressed in the CI post. The first problem with the ECT doctrine is that it "assumes" that there is a part of man that can exist after death. This idea comes from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. If you look at the creation of man in Gen 2:7 it says that God formed the "man" from the dust of the ground. So, whatever man is he is from the elements of the ground. God then breathed His Neshama of Lives into the man and the man "became" a living soul. From this passage it is quite clear that man (body) + breath of lives = Living soul. Solomon says that when the man dies the body returns to the dust and the spirit (breath of Lives) goes back to God. That means there is nothing left to live on after death. We can go over the passages you've posted if you'd like but as I said they have been addressed.

It's also been shown that "aionios" doesn't mean eternal. You mentioned the punishment of eternal fire. Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah were examples of eternal (aionious) fire and yet they are not still burning today.

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:6-7 NKJ)

Jude says Sodom and Gomorrah suffered aionios fire, they are not burning for eternity but rather have been completely destroyed. As I understand it archaeologists today are not even sure where these two cities were located because they have been so utterly destroyed they don't have any archaeological evidence. There are numerous accounts in Scripture that use the word "aion" for things that came to an end.

No. Butch. Believe what I'm telling you. I have no business with the scholars. They will answer to God for what they have done.

How do you understand living soul? It cannot be understood except in the light of God. The cup is made to house the spirit. But all cups have an inside and an outside. The inside touches the outside and what is inside. Do you understand why you cannot put new wine in an old wineskin?

Nevertheless, the wicked go down to Hades.

Why do you think the gospel was readily accepted by the ancient Greeks? Jesus spoke their language. Paul spoke their language. I don't mean they spoke Greek. I mean they didn't introduce new concepts. The Greek concept of the after life did not just come from no where. In spirt Jesus went and preached the gospel to the spirits in prison. Hades is the prison. It's sort of like a jail where prisoners are kept until they are called for their trial. Hades is not the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the punishment. I firmly believe the men of Noah's day and the men of Sodom and Gomorrah are there in Hades today and they are in torment. You say today, but today is yesterday in the eternal sense.

 

[Butch5]

No. Butch. Believe what I'm telling you. I have no business with the scholars. They will answer to God for what they have done.

How do you understand living soul? It cannot be understood except in the light of God. The cup is made to house the spirit. But all cups have an inside and an outside. The inside touches the outside and what is inside. Do you understand why you cannot put new wine in an old wineskin?

Nevertheless, the wicked go down to Hades.

Why do you think the gospel was readily accepted by the ancient Greeks? Jesus spoke their language. Paul spoke their language. I don't mean they spoke Greek. I mean they didn't introduce new concepts. The Greek concept of the after life did not just come from no where. In spirt Jesus went and preached the gospel to the spirits in prison. Hades is the prison. It's sort of like a jail where prisoners are kept until they are called for their trial. Hades is not the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the punishment. I firmly believe the men of Noah's day and the men of Sodom and Gomorrah are there in Hades today and they are in torment. You say today, but today is yesterday in the eternal sense.

Gen 2:7 tells us what a living soul is. Jesus and Paul did not speak what the Greeks believed, they were Jews and believed as Jews. What the Greeks believed came from the philosophers such a Plato. The Greeks may have believed that people were alive in Hades but the Jews didn't.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecc 9:5 KJV)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it (Ecc 12:7 KJV)

The man returns to duse and the spirit returns to God, nothing left to live in Hades.

 

[MarkT]

Gen 2:7 tells us what a living soul is. Jesus and Paul did not speak what the Greeks believed, they were Jews and believed as Jews. What the Greeks believed came from the philosophers such a Plato. The Greeks may have believed that people were alive in Hades but the Jews didn't.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecc 9:5 KJV)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it (Ecc 12:7 KJV)

The man returns to duse and the spirit returns to God, nothing left to live in Hades.

What the Jews believed is irrelevant. I can only tell you what Jesus and the apostles said and what I believe. To say Jesus was a Jew so he believed what they believed is kind of ridiculous. Jesus tried to teach them and they said he had a demon. Paul wept for the Jews who did not believe Jesus.

What of the soul? The Preacher doesn't mention the soul except to say Shoel is where you are going. Ecc. 9:10 And by you he doesn't mean your body. Your body returns to dust.

Indeed the devil will be brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. Isa. 14:15 'Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven.' Isa. 7:11 That's how deep it is. It is as deep as heaven is high. Whoever is simple, he does not know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of Sheol. 9:18

Ezekiel 26:20
then I will thrust you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you to dwell in the nether world, among primeval ruins, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you will not be inhabited or have a place in the land of the living.

This is what the LORD said to Tyre and its inhabitants. With those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and he describes it as the nether world.

Psalm 94:17
If the Lord had not been my help, my soul would soon have dwelt in the land of silence.

 

[Butch5]

What the Jews believed is irrelevant. I can only tell you what Jesus and the apostles said and what I believe. To say Jesus was a Jew so he believed what they believed is kind of ridiculous. Jesus tried to teach them and they said he had a demon. Paul wept for the Jews who did not believe Jesus.

What of the soul? The Preacher doesn't mention the soul except to say Shoel is where you are going. Ecc. 9:10 And by you he doesn't mean your body. Your body returns to dust.

Indeed the devil will be brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. Isa. 14:15 'Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven.' Isa. 7:11 That's how deep it is. It is as deep as heaven is high. Whoever is simple, he does not know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of Sheol. 9:18

Ezekiel 26:20
then I will thrust you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you to dwell in the nether world, among primeval ruins, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you will not be inhabited or have a place in the land of the living.

This is what the LORD said to Tyre and its inhabitants. With those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and he describes it as the nether world.

Psalm 94:17
If the Lord had not been my help, my soul would soon have dwelt in the land of silence.

Are you familiar with exegesis?

 

[JLB]

What you believe is wrong, we're done here. What you said was very insulting.

It certainly wasn't meant to be insulting.

There just is no scripture that has ever been presented that shows that the person or devil ceases to exist.

I find most of what you write to be very informative.

I agree with much of what you write and say.

It is in the very small window of doctrine about the existence of our spirit after the body has died, that I find we disagree and it is in this vein of context that I said -
Not from the scriptures, that's for sure!

I wasn't referring to everything you write, but rather the idea you have maintained that the person ceases to exist after their body dies in hell or the lake of fire.

This statement of mine stems directly from your post # 323


Please don't be insulted, I think you are are great writer and have many great things to share with us.

However I stand by my statement as it refers to the very narrow window of disagreement I have with you concerning the fate of the wicked and the terms the bibles uses and their meanings.

Now if you can show me a scripture that clearly teaches that the wicked cease to exist in the lake of fire then I will change my point of view.

For now it says they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Jesus said - Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

The wicked suffer the same fate as the devil, everlasting punishment day and night forever and ever!!!

This is the meaning of the second death!


JLB