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How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

If the destruction is not forever then neither is the exclusion from the presence of the Lord forever. If you lose the meaning of forever, then how can you say death lasts forever? Eternal life? Is that forever?

The result of the punishment is eternal, the duration is not. I submit that the word "aionios" does not mean eternal even though many dictionaries translate it as such. In translating "aionion" as forever they create contradictions in the Scripture. Consider this passage,

35 This is the portion of the anointing of Aaron, and of the anointing of his sons, out of the offerings of the LORD made by fire, in the day when he presented them to minister unto the LORD in the priest's office;
36 Which the LORD commanded to be given them of the children of Israel, in the day that he anointed them, by a statute for ever throughout their generations. (Lev 7:35-36 KJV)

The words "for ever" are translated from the Greek word "aionion" which is a form of "aion". "Aionios" also is a form of the word "aion". They're all the same word, the spelling is different because the Greek language is inflected. It's like the English word run, in the present and future tense it is spelled "run" in the past tense it is spelled "ran", yet it means the same thing.

In this passage from Leviticus the commandment given is part of the Mosaic Law is said to be forever. That is not possible since both Jesus and Paul said that the Law came to an end. This passage is a reference to the Aronic priesthood, yet Paul states plainly that the priesthood was changed, therefore, the ordinances of the Aronic priesthood cannot be eternal. There are quite a few passages like this in the Scriptures.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Heb 7:11-12 KJV)

Jesus said the Law and the prophets were until John, since then the kingdom of God is preached.

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luk 16:16 KJV)

Additionally, that Gehenna is not a place of eternal burning can be seen from Jeremiah who indicates that Gehenna will one day again be holy to the Lord.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:38-40 KJV)
 
Not Jerusalem! The lake of fire!

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

If the destruction is not forever then neither is the exclusion from the presence of the Lord forever. If you lose the meaning of forever, then how can you say death lasts forever? Eternal life? Is that forever?

Hi guys. Butch explains it better than I do. Read post 381. The result of the punishment is eternal, the duration is not. Consider the word (aionios). - DRS81

Also consider John 3:16. The Greek translation for eternal when teaching life and the Greek translation for eternal when teaching death is different..

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib//poly/g0166.htm / http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib//poly/joh003.htm

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
 
The result of the punishment is eternal, the duration is not.

If the result of their punishment is exclusion forever how can you say the duration is not? If the exclusion is forever, then the destruction must also be forever.
 
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If the result of their punishment is exclusion forever how can you say the duration is not? If the exclusion is forever, then the destruction must also be forever.

What I said is that the result of the destruction is forever, not it's duration. The destruction of the wicked is not something that will continue eternally. In other words, the process of destroying the wicked will not continue forever. There will be a time when their destruction ends and they will exist no more. Once they are destroyed they are destroyed forever, never to be resurrected again.
 
What I said is that the result of the destruction is forever, not it's duration. The destruction of the wicked is not something that will continue eternally. In other words, the process of destroying the wicked will not continue forever. There will be a time when their destruction ends and they will exist no more. Once they are destroyed they are destroyed forever, never to be resurrected again.

It just makes sense, because if you think hard about it, why would Jesus allow eternal burning at the same time believers are walking on the New Earth eternally.
 
It doesn't say the result of the punishment, neither does it say the result of the exclusion (weeping and torment in both). It says the destruction is forever. The exclusion is forever.

If you continue reading death where it says destruction you are not going to get the true picture. The lake of fire is death. The destruction is what is going on there.

This punishment, not the punishment you think, is forever. "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Mt. 25:46
 
What I said is that the result of the destruction is forever, not it's duration. The destruction of the wicked is not something that will continue eternally. In other words, the process of destroying the wicked will not continue forever. There will be a time when their destruction ends and they will exist no more. Once they are destroyed they are destroyed forever, never to be resurrected again.

I'm talking about the Greek word in the sentence. If you agree it means forever. If the result of their punishment is exclusion forever how can you say the duration is not?
 
It doesn't say the result of the punishment, neither does it say the result of the exclusion (weeping and torment in both). It says the destruction is forever. The exclusion is forever.

If you continue reading death where it says destruction you are not going to get the true picture. The lake of fire is death. The destruction is what is going on there.

This punishment, not the punishment you think, is forever. "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Mt. 25:46

But, "aionios" is not eternal. "Aion" means an age. The term age by definition is not defined, It's simply a long time. "Aionios" is the adjective form of "aion" and it modifies the destruction. The lake of fire is called the second death, the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will die and burn up. The punishment is death and that death will be eternal. It's not that they will somehow be alive and burn forever, their death is forever.
 
I'm talking about the Greek word in the sentence. If you agree it means forever. If the result of their punishment is exclusion forever how can you say the duration is not?

I don't agree that "aionios" means forever. What I'm saying is that the act of destroying the wicked is not eternal, once they are destroyed (dead) that is eternal.
 
Butch5

Do you think that whenever they mention eternal punishment or death,
Jesus always refers back to Isa 66:24 and the trash heap in Jerusalem as picture language and as metaphor?
I think Jesus is... mainly because he describes the duration and also mentions the word fire in Isa 66:24 as metaphor.
 
Look. These people are dead already because they don't have the Spirit of God. So death is not the punishment. Being excluded is the punishment. Being in hell is the punishment.

I don't agree that "aionios" means forever. What I'm saying is that the act of destroying the wicked is not eternal, once they are destroyed (dead) that is eternal.

I know what you're saying. But if the act of being destroyed is not forever, then the exclusion is not forever. But if the exclusion is forever, then the act of being destroyed is forever. One word is used once to describe both the destruction and the exclusion. It can not mean both eternal and not eternal.
 
It can not mean both eternal and not eternal.

Yes it can. Isa 66:24 is speaking metaphorically.
Isa 66 mentions Jerusalem three times, and the fire there burned out a long time ago.
The fire not being quenched is used as 'picture language' to describe the separation from God.

These people are dead already because they don't have the Spirit of God. So death is not the punishment.

How is not having eternal life not punishment. How is separation and death from God not punishment.
 
Butch5

Notice that the word aiōnios is used here to describe eternal in Matt 25:46...
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib//poly/g0166.htm / http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib//poly/mat025.htm

..and then in John 3:16 we also have the word aiōnios...
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib//poly/g0166.htm / http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib//poly/joh003.htm

Do you think this could be translator bias. Blessings friend. - DRS81

I don't think the word "aionios" can mean eternal since it is used of things that are not eternal. I don't think a word can have opposite meanings.
 
Butch5

Do you think that whenever they mention eternal punishment or death,
Jesus always refers back to Isa 66:24 and the trash heap in Jerusalem as picture language and as metaphor?
I think Jesus is... mainly because he describes the duration and also mentions the word fire in Isa 66:24 as metaphor.

I don't think that is a metaphor. I believe that really is where the wicked will be thrown.
 
Look. These people are dead already because they don't have the Spirit of God. So death is not the punishment. Being excluded is the punishment. Being in hell is the punishment.

The Scriptures say that wages of sin is death. Death is the punishment. God said the soul that sins it shall die. Exclusion from God is the result of death, one who is dead cannot interact with God.



I know what you're saying. But if the act of being destroyed is not forever, then the exclusion is not forever. But if the exclusion is forever, then the act of being destroyed is forever. One word is used once to describe both the destruction and the exclusion. It can not mean both eternal and not eternal.

Not a all, it doesn't take eternity for a person to burn up, however, once they are burned up, they are burned up forever. Once a person is destroyed the don't exist anymore. A person who doesn't exist cannot interact with God, thus the exclusion.
 
aiōnion?

I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, the All-Powerful.

[what kind of power comes from God? Eternal power. aiōnion power. The kind that was, is and will be.]

the one who alone possesses immortality, ...

eternal (aiōnion) power.

[What kind of punishment? Destructive punishment.]

...giving punishment .. the penalty of eternal (aiōnion) destruction,

[the Alpha and Omega's destruction. aiōnion destruction.]

be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

For indeed our God is a consuming fire.

And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end...
as for the cowards and unbelievers .. their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.


Revelation 1:8
1 Timothy 6:16
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
Matthew 10:28
Hebrews 12:29
Revelation 21:6, 8
 
I don't think the word "aionios" can mean eternal since it is used of things that are not eternal. I don't think a word can have opposite meanings.

Why was 'aionios' added into the Greek text for John 3:16. :cool2

I don't think that is a metaphor. I believe that really is where the wicked will be thrown.

I believe you may be right, because Gehenna was also used in the OT. When do you think this will happen, after the 1,000 years and before the New Earth? The metaphor was used in regards to separation. Jesus used the fire as a bigger picture. The fire 2,000 years ago is burned out.
 
Why was 'aionios' added into the Greek text for John 3:16. :cool2

I think the idea is that it's on going.


I believe you may be right, because Gehenna was also used in the OT. When do you think this will happen, after the 1,000 years and before the New Earth? The metaphor was used in regards to separation. Jesus used the fire as a bigger picture. The fire 2,000 years ago is burned out.

Gehenna was a place of burning in the OT and I believe it will be at Jesus' coming and at the end of the 1000 year reign when the wicked are judged.
 
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