I agree.
Why not discuss the actual words that are in this verse, rather than try to give a definition of a word that is not.
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46
JLB
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?
- Thread starter jeff77
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I agree.
Why not discuss the actual words that are in this verse, rather than try to give a definition of a word that is not.
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46
JLB
Butch5
Member
Hi Jeff,
I wouldn't say death means annihilation, it means to die. It is the result of the fire that is end in annihilation. In regards your question about John 3:16 i think the answer is that we all have preconceptions. There are many who have sacred cows that simply are not allowed to be challenged. To see this all one needs to do is visit a few different seminaries. Try going into a Calvinistic seminary and teach that people weren't chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world and you'll be shown the door. If all Christians would set aside their preconceptions and research the Scriptures they would, in my opinion come to the conclusion that ECT is not correct. I takes a lot of time to do the research that is necessary and in addition you have weed out the bias that is in many of our resources, that's one reason it takes a lot of time. I think another problem is that today Christians are taught to proof text the Scriptures rather than study them. I see preachers who proof text the Scriptures.
You also have to remember that for about 1000 years the Catholic Church was pretty much only one in charge of and kept the Scriptures from the common man. They could basically tell Christians whatever they wanted to because most Christians couldn't verify what was said. Think about this, They were trying to convert masses and whole nations to Christ, how much easier is it if they tell them either they convert or the will burn for eternity. Now if the Scriptures said that it ones thing but people could not verify it they had to take the church leaders at their word.
On the flip side of the ECT doctrine you have the Heavenly Destiny doctrine. How come for over a 1000 years our preachers and theologians haven't noticed that there is not a single passage of Scripture that says believers go to Heaven when they die? Go to just about any church and that's what you'll here. Or go to just about any funeral and they say so ans so is in Heaven with Jesus.
The answer to you question can actually be seen on these forums, Start a thread saying that Christians don't go to Heaven when they die and see what happens. It's extremely rare that you will have someone say, come brother let us search the Scriptures to see if what you say is true. Rather the majority will scream you're wrong they'll proof text passages they think prove their point and many won't even consider what you've said, they've simply determined that you're wrong and that's it.
Butch5
Member
Where did Paul say it's eternal? Where is exclusion listed as punishment?
Eternity is a time period, it's just that "aionios" doesn't mean that.
Butch5
Member
Jeff,
There's a difference, the Israelites were sacrificing innocent children to other gods, they were not executing judgment.
Butch5
Member
Butch5
Member
Hi gr8grace3,
We've looked at the word "aionios" and it cannot mean eternal. It is used multiple times in the OT of ordinances of the Mosaic Law which came to an end. Jesus and Paul both said the Law ended. In the OT there are ordinances of the Arronic priesthood that are said to be "aionion" which is translated forever, in our English bibles, however, we know that "aionion" cannot mean forever since Paul said that the priesthood changed with the coming of Christ.
The "aion" which is the root of "aionios" means age. By definition an age is an undefined period of time, it could be 1000 years or 10,000 years. Since the time is not defined by the term it could be any long period of time, that means it could be an unending period of time. So while "aion" an age could be a period of 1000 years, it could also period that never ends. Thus it could speak of an eternal age without the word meaning eternity. This is the only way I can see define the word where the definition will fit with all of the uses of the word in the Scriptures.
On the contrary the punishment is everlasting punishment into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
How do you equate the bibles words that state everlasting fire and everlasting punishment with your words that say "no burning?
Just how do you come to that conclusion?
JLB
2 Thessalonians 1:9
They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
Why doesn't Paul say the punishment is death, as you say? Surely he is the one who should know what he said? It's because he knows it is not death. Everyone dies.
Romans 6:10
The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,
The Lord died once. It is appointed to men to die once.
So how can you say they die when they are cast into the lake of fire? Do they die again? No. Their worm does not die. It is not appointed for men to die twice.
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Butch5
Member
,
He does know that penalty is death, he said so.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23 KJV)
You have been shown the truth.
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41,46
How do you define this everlasting punishment?
JLB
The letter to the Romans is about the payment that was paid for all men in Christ Jesus. The letter to the Thessalonians is dealing with the punishment, not for sin, but for causing sin. Paul is talking about the punishment reserved for the devil, the liar, the one who tempts men to sin, and his angels, those who teach people the devil's lies. This punishment is for angels and demons and the devil - for gods, not for men. This punishment, which is called hell or the lake of fire, is eternal/endless/forever and ever.
Doulos Iesou
Member
I do recall a reference somewhere in the Bible to this thing called the second death... Hmmmm.
Yes sir!
The second death is being cast into the lake of fire.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15
JLB
Doulos Iesou
Member
You keep forgetting sin's wages were paid.
What would you call it? The 1st death, the death of the body; the soul that goes down to Hades is kept under punishment until the resurrection, is until the resurrection. The second death, Death and Hades are destroyed. The second death is forever; no more Death and Hades.
The punishment is therefore for those who deny Christ; for those that say there is no God (the haters of God and his Son), and for those who do not keep his commandments. It's for the Satan worshippers and the idol makers. It's for those who revel and dance in the daytime. It's for the godless and for all who engage in ungodliness. They shall suffer the same punishment as the devil.
Doulos Iesou
Member
No, I utterly disagree with you on the exegesis of that passage.
Totally disagree with this interpretation too.
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:6 (ESV)
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’ Revelation 2:11 (ESV)
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8 (ESV)
These three texts also reference the second death, and it clearly is something that happens to the wicked, not just to "death and hades."
Those who revel and dance in the daytime? What?!
2 Peter 2:13
suffering wrong for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their dissipation, carousing with you.
suffering wrong for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their dissipation, carousing with you.
Doulos Iesou
Member
The connotation is to indulge in evil pleasures while it is still daytime.
Because it involves the spirit and not the flesh that has already died.
If you have a scripture that shows everyone who is cast into the lake of fire with cease to exist, then please share it.
JLB