Doulos Iesou
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?
- Thread starter jeff77
- Start date
Everlasting destruction In everlasting fire.
There is no room to assume anything in this clear and irrefutable statement from Jesus Christ.
Tormented day and night forever and ever with no rest.
JLB
chessman
Member
I think it's Because it comes after their first death. Crazy, borderline heresy, thinking I know. But oh well.
I'm supposing it occurs after their resurrection and judgment too. And it is the punishment of death they were told they deserved and it is administered by the example of the consuming fire wrath of God shown by Sodom's destruction and results in their eternal/everlasting destruction of both their body and soul. But, that's just my wild conjecture, I suppose.
If you feel that the destruction of both their body and soul is comforting, try reading Matt 10:28b.
Uh, uh, I know, I know. Because their destruction lasts forever. Silly me.
Now if their destruction meant torment, then why do you think Paul said everlasting destruction rather than everlasting torment, if that's what he really meant? That's the real question to be asking yourself.
Hmm? Is there room for this?
Hebrews 12:29 For indeed our God is a consuming fire.
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46
Are you suggesting that eternal life is somehow not eternal because it is written in English?
Whats your point?
Everlasting and Eternal are the same Greek word.
Aionios - Strong's Number: 166
Definition
- without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
- without beginning
- without end, never to cease, everlasting
Definition
- for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
- the worlds, universe
- period of time, age
... but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46
If you have a scripture that you think somehow teaches us that eternal life is temporary then please share it.
JLB
If you have a scripture that teaches us that those who are cast into the lake of fire cease to exist then please share it.
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
The wicked are sentenced to the same everlasting fire as the devil.
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15
"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11
He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels... the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night.
- The devil and and his angels are cast into everlasting fire!
- The devil is tormented day and night along with the false prophet and the beast.
- Those who take the mark and worship the beast are tormented in fire and the have no rest day or night.
- ANYONE NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE!
Where in these verses do we find the idea of ceasing to exist?
Tormented day and night.
Tormented forever.
No rest day and night.
Cast into everlasting fire.
Everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
JLB
Olam came first, then Aionios, then eternal. Which one do you think is best to start with. Only with the influence of the Greek and Roman worlds did the meaning of olam expand and receive new nuances and understandings.
Olam: time and space
The Hebrew word olam, which is often translated as world or universe.
The question arises: did the Hebrews of biblical times who coined the word, comprehend the concept olam in the same way we do? In other words, was olam for them an encompassing word denoting planet, universe, world and the earth with its inhabitants, as it is for us?
In the Bible, where olam is mentioned more than 430 times — with maybe one exception (Ecc. 3:11) — it is used in reference to time not to space.
That is to say, olam is understood in the Bible to express long duration of time, antiquity, continued existence and even eternity or uninterrupted future, but it is not understood in terms of the spatial vast universe.
Some scholars point out that the noun olam is derived from the verb alam meaning hidden, concealed and unknown time.
There are others who point to the Akkadian word ullu meaning remote time, as the origin of the Hebrew concept. Either way, olam is the Hebraic conceptualization of time not of space or location.
Many phrases were coined in biblical times using olam to elucidate the concept of time. Examples of this are phrases such as meatah v’ad olam (from now to eternity), l’olam (forever), m’olam (from time immemorial), m’olam lo (never), brit olam (an eternal covenant), l’olam chasdo (His mercy is forever).
Lastly, olam is conceptualized more in terms of the world, the physical universe we live in, as the idea of actual space was incorporated into the notion of time. - DRS81
We know death is prescribed by the law. But those who do not believe, are they not dead? Are the dead not cast into the fire like so much wood? The question is not whether they are dead. The law kills. The question is what happens to the dead in the lake of fire?
I agree.
Revelation 20:10
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Do you agree the devil and the beast and the false prophet will be tormented forever and ever? Do you agree the goats will suffer the same punishment? As Jesus said, 'And they will go away into eternal punishment' Mt. 25:46 This is the same punishment (the eternal fire) he just finished saying it was prepared for the devil and his angels. Mt. 25:41
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I wouldn't do you any good, as you have already indicated you can't read Hebrew.
I'm sure it would make a great conversation piece though.
JLB
How do you know what loam means unless someone who can read Hebrew tells you what it means.
The New Testament was written in Greek.
Eternal life = Good!
Everlasting punishment into everlasting fire = Not Good!
JLB
Butch5
Member
The question was death, Paul knows what it is.
chessman
Member
Sure, I'll use your method, modeled above, to build the ultimate: "The wicked shall cease to exist when they are thrown into The Lake of Fire." doctrine:
Here goes:
1. Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near to Yahweh and said, “Will you also sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
2. Ezekiel 28:19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled over you;you have become as horrors,and you shall cease to exist forever.
3. Revelation 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Poof! There you have it. Can you spot any errors in how I built this doctrine and why?
Now, let's see how my method compares to yours. You mentioned these verses and built a doctrine teaching Eternal Conscious Torture from them:
1. Revelation 14:9-11. Umm? This is a pre-resurrection passage. But it sure does have that phrase you are looking for in it, doesn't it.
2. Rev 20:10 which is out of context since it's about The Devil and his angels. We be talkin bout humans.
3. Matt 25:41, which is odd that you'd even mention it since it shows what I just said is accurate. That the LoF is prepared for the storage and torture of the Devil and his angels and this corresponds to John's vision called the Lake of Fire. Problem is, we aren't talking about the Devil or his angels (or we shouldn't be in this thread or in your doctrine bout humans.
4. Rev 20:15, which is fine and in context since it's talking about ALL the post-judged humans versus your previous verse about the Devil and his angels, pre-judgment. I even used it in my doctrine flow.
But how about adding just a little more context concerning this Lake of Fire for clarity since it is a phrase which ONLY appears in John's vision? What's up with that? Does John ever tell us what the Lake of Fire is, what that vision represents? Hmmm? Where-o-where could we find out what the Lake of Fire thingy is?
Revelation 20:14b This is the second death—the lake of fire.
Oh, there it is. Imagine that. Hiding right there in between verse 14a and 15. Imagine that.
Pretty clear now what this Lake of Fire thingy is, huh? That 2nd death that Jesus said fear so much since it destroys both the soul and body, this time. No wonder it's pictured by John's vision as a scary Lake of Fire and defined as their 2nd death. You know, the one ALL the saved people avoids.
But if you really want a one verse doctrine verse, what's wrong with Jesus' statement:
Matthew 10:28 ... But be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Let's look at the one verse from your list that we both agree is on topic:
Revelation 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Except of course The False Prophet horse rider thingy (what's his name?) with frogs coming out of its mouth was not. since he's already been thrown into the LoF before the GWTJ with the devil to the place that just by chance was said to be "prepared for the devil and his angels". I guess that character in John's vision must not have a name or even be present at the GWTJ, huh?
I wonder why? Let's just call him Mr. FP Demon since John says the frogs coming out of his mouth represent demon spirits.
Your foundational ECT argument requires Mr. Demon to be a man with a name (or all wicked men and women, for that matter) and not to represent one of the devil's angels (demons).
You got any evidential verse that shows how Mr. F.P. Demon, you remember the demon spirit frog puker, is a human? Or do you just think he is?
I've asked you before, since it's a seriously crucial requirement for your admitted only foundation to a lost human ECT doctrine, what makes you think mr. FP Demon is a human. No response to date.
Which leaves the ECT doctrine un-founded, BTW using any applicable and relevant verses except the one we both used. I just didn't ignore the definition right before it.