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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?
- Thread starter jeff77
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chessman
Member
Because Paul is familiar with Jesus' teaching that their is something even worse than death. It's called the destruction of BOTH the body and the soul in Hell. See Matt 10:28. The second death.
And Paul knows that God's final Wrath upon the wicked is best exampled by the total destruction of Sodom (a once famous city full of death, yet totally destroyed forever by God's fire as something even worse). See Peter's and Jude's examples. And Paul is familiar with all the OT and Hebrew's "God is a consuming fire" passages.
In other words, Paul spoke Biblically accurate by using destruction of the wicked at their final judgment.
None of this un-dying worms represent toasty, shriveled up, un-consumed bodies stuff from Paul. Paul knows when God finally desires to put an end to the wicked forever, He'll do it in accordance with God being a consuming Fire.
Will it be a pleasant and peaceful destruction for them (as you are the one saying that's our view, not us)? No way. Sounds pretty fearful to me. That's why I tell people it is.
But will it be forever conscious torture and NOT their destruction of their bodies and souls? Nope, not and Paul and Jesus and Peter and Jude and John and God be right. Either ECT is right or God's judgmental Wrath consumes their bodies and their souls in Hell. One or the other is right. They can't both be right.
Apparently Paul does know the punishment is eternal because he says it's eternal. So what happened to the wages of sin is death? What is your conclusion based on? (Edited for ToS 2.4. Obadiah)
The Bible says, the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name; there men will weep and gnash their teeth; where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. That's knowledge. (Edited and removed, ToS 2.4. Obadiah)
Regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, Jude said, 'they serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7, which agrees with Peter who said, 'the Lord knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment'. 2 Peter 2:9 So their souls are undergoing punishment (in Hades) even to this day since the day of judgment has not arrived as yet. It's been a long time. And yet, compared to forever and ever, it is nothing. The lake of fire is fearful because it is forever and ever. The fire is not quenched. The wicked are wood for the fire; if the wicked are destroyed as you say, the fire would go out.
What makes the fire eternal? It is eternal because it is of God who is himself eternal.
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Paul said, 'our God is a consuming fire.' Hebrews 12:29, but here he is referring to the earth and the things thereof and also to heaven; the things God made. Perhaps the fire you imagine is not the unquenchable fire reserved for the devil and his angels. Perhaps this fire is more like the fire that burned and yet the bush was not consumed. This fire doesn't go out because what the wicked treasured up in their hearts and what they held to be the true turned out to be wood and hay and stubble.
Jesus' final word on the subject -
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41,46
John said it -
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
JLB
chessman
Member
Technically, Jesus spoke much later than He did with Matt there in Chapter 25 about the subject of the wicked's final punishment:
Revelation 21:5, 8 And the one seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new!” And he said, “Write, because these words are faithful and true.” ... the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.
And then goes on in the rest to describe The New Jerusalem in vision and words.
So Technically, Jesus' last word about the wicked's fate ends with the word "death".
To me, it's no small coincidence that Jesus is the same person that told John in his vision of the LoF, that it was the "second death" and also taught this about something even more fearful than death:
Matthew 10:28 be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
But, Graciously, it really isn't our fate, one way or the other:
“Therefore everyone who acknowledges me before people, I also will acknowledge him before my Father who is in heaven."
Keep acknowledging Jesus as will I and we'll discuss this later one day. Looking forward to meeting you.
Butch5
Member
The passage about their smoke of their torment is speaking of people who are alive, not dead
Is the fire still burning? Is that region still on fire today? No, anyone can go there and see that it is not still burning,thus "aionios" fire isn't fire that never goes out
How does that work? How have they been judged if judgment day hasn't come? Also, Hades is not the place of torment it is the grave.
The lake of fire isn't forever and ever, Jeremiah prophesied that it would one day be made holy to God.
Quench means to put out, not go out. A fire that cannot be quenched cannot be put out, it doesn't mean it won't go out. Any fire that consumes it's fuel will go out.
The fire isn't eternal because "aionios" doesn't mean eternal.
Butch5
Member
He's already stated that the punishment is death, the wages of sin is death.
Matthew 11:23
And you, Caper′na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Luke 16:23
and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom.
Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.
Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
Jesus taught Hades was a place of torment and flames. To the city of Caper'na-um, he said it would be brought down to Hades. And also he taught the rich man was in Hades. The rich man died and in Hades, being in torment, he spoke to Abraham. And Abraham said, 'between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ Luke 16:26
Death and Hades gave up the dead in them. So both Death and Hades, the prison where the dead are kept, will give up the dead in them. Are they dead or alive in Hades? Well, they are dead. The rich man died and he was buried. But Jesus said he (his soul) was in Hades and in a place of torment. And there is no way the ones in Hades can warn the living.
It is speaking of those who receive the mark of the beast. It says they will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Does this occur in heaven or on earth? Actually it suggests both.
What John saw occur in heaven will occur on earth. When the Lord returns he will slay the rebels and they will be cast into the lake of fire. We will see dead bodies on earth. But can we see the soul being cast into hell?
And you, Caper′na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Luke 16:23
and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom.
Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.
Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
Jesus taught Hades was a place of torment and flames. To the city of Caper'na-um, he said it would be brought down to Hades. And also he taught the rich man was in Hades. The rich man died and in Hades, being in torment, he spoke to Abraham. And Abraham said, 'between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ Luke 16:26
Death and Hades gave up the dead in them. So both Death and Hades, the prison where the dead are kept, will give up the dead in them. Are they dead or alive in Hades? Well, they are dead. The rich man died and he was buried. But Jesus said he (his soul) was in Hades and in a place of torment. And there is no way the ones in Hades can warn the living.
It is speaking of those who receive the mark of the beast. It says they will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Does this occur in heaven or on earth? Actually it suggests both.
What John saw occur in heaven will occur on earth. When the Lord returns he will slay the rebels and they will be cast into the lake of fire. We will see dead bodies on earth. But can we see the soul being cast into hell?
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Butch5
Member
The parable about Lazarus and the rich man is not about life after death it's a parable against the Jewish leadership. If you follow the flow of thought from chapter 14 you can see where he is going with this. When Jesus says the rich man was in torment in Hades in the flame He was alluding to the Song of Moses with which the Jews would be very familiar.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deu 32:1 KJV)
The word translated "hell" is Hades in the Greek OT. The reference to the rich man being in Hades is speaking of the death of the priesthood. If you look just prior to the story of Lazarus and the rich man Jesus said, 'the Law and the prophets were until John, since then the kingdom of God is preached.' Jesus is telling them that the priesthood is over, it's dead.
If you look at the passages that you've been addressing the place of fire is Gehenna, not Hades.
It takes place on earth, look at the next verse, the saints are there. I don't think you'll suggest that the saints are burning in hell.
Hades is associated with death. Hades is the prison. Hades will be emptied. The prisoners will be judged. Both Death and Hades will be cast into the lake of fire.
Re. Lazarus; the lesson here is for the living. The poor will find rest for their soul in the bosom of Abraham. The rich will be cast into Hades. So do not desire to be rich.
There's nothing there about the Jewish leadership.
Jesus taught Hades. To say the rich man was in Hades would not make any sense unless Hades exists. Jesus said it's a place of torment and fire. Would it make any sense to say the rich will be cast into an imaginary place? No.
Hades is Greek for Sheol. Most everyone, Greek and Jew, believed in Hades. To understand the Lord's teaching you have to believe in an afterlife, Hades.
David believed in Sheol.
Psalm 30:3
O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from Sheol, restored me to life from among those gone down to the Pit.
Psalm 49:15
But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me.
The concept here is that we are made alive by the Spirit of God. We are brought up from death to life. ie. brought up from Sheol. His soul was restored to life by the Holy Spirit. His soul was ransomed from the power of Sheol, meaning the power to imprison his soul.
Gehenna is not Hades. You're getting the two confused. Gehenna refers to the place of burning reserved for the devil ie. hell
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Butch5
Member
I'm not getting any thing confused. Hades is the grave, Gehenna is the place of torment. The parable about Lazarus and the rich man is not about the afterlife. If you look at the parable you'll see that there are quite few issues with understanding it as teaching about the afterlife. For one thing, how does a persons ghost have fingers, mouth, tongues, etc.? How come Lazarus went to be with Abraham? Why did the rich man ask Abraham to send Lazarus back from dead? Does Abraham have the power to raised the dead or is that God's place? How is Abraham talking if he is dead? How is the rich man talking if he is dead? Jesus is preaching the kingdom and telling the parable. In the parable the man wants to warn his brothers and in the parable Abraham says they have Moses and the prophets. Shouldn't Abraham have told the rich man that his brothers needed Jesus, not Moses and the prophets?
Are you suggesting that being rich send one to hell and being poor gives one entrance into the kingdom?
I think to gain a proper understanding you have to look at Hades and the lake of fire as two different things, but the hell of one and the hell of the other are the same - eternal fire and torment.
[/quote]It takes place on earth, look at the next verse, the saints are there. I don't think you'll suggest that the saints are burning in hell.[/quote]
What John saw in heaven was a vision or a portent of what will take place on earth when the Lord returns. Rev. 19 the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies are gathered to make war against the Lord. The beast is captured and with it the false prophet. These two are cast alive into the lake of fire. The rest are slain by the sword, the sword that issues from the mouth of the Lord. We will see the bodies of the dead, but we can not see the soul being cast into the lake of fire.
But Rev. 14:9 refers to the ones who receive the mark. They will be cast into the lake of fire; no day of judgment for them.
'In the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb' almost suggests this judgment will come from heaven, meaning before the Lord returns.
[/quote]It takes place on earth, look at the next verse, the saints are there. I don't think you'll suggest that the saints are burning in hell.[/quote]
What John saw in heaven was a vision or a portent of what will take place on earth when the Lord returns. Rev. 19 the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies are gathered to make war against the Lord. The beast is captured and with it the false prophet. These two are cast alive into the lake of fire. The rest are slain by the sword, the sword that issues from the mouth of the Lord. We will see the bodies of the dead, but we can not see the soul being cast into the lake of fire.
But Rev. 14:9 refers to the ones who receive the mark. They will be cast into the lake of fire; no day of judgment for them.
'In the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb' almost suggests this judgment will come from heaven, meaning before the Lord returns.
Butch5
Member
Better yet, let's just dispense with the word hell all together since it's not in the original languages. If you look at the word Hades, the definition of the grave fits. There is no fire there is no torment it's just the body in the grave.
Per Genesis 2:7 a soul requires a body, what is cast into the lake of fire is the resurrected who are judged to be wicked. They will be cast bodily into the lake of fire.
Humans will be judged, the demons may not. They may already be judged.
It's not the judgment, it's part of the Tribulation. The saints are also there.
How is it possible to misunderstand the teaching about the rich and the poor?
Hades is not the grave. The grave refers to the place where the body is buried.
Re. the soul - Why is it an issue? You can't accept it so it becomes an issue. Why did his soul find rest in the bosom of Abraham? Because he did. Jesus's teaching - blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Lazarus suffered evil things in this life. His reward was rest. The rich man received good things in this life, but when he died his soul was sent to Hades. Why did he ask Abraham to send Lazarus? He wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool his tongue. Even enough water to cover a finger is not allowed in Hades. Then he begged Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to warn his brothers (lest they also come into this place of torment). God can raise the dead. If Abraham asked God to raise Lazarus, then Lazarus would be raised. How is Abraham talking? Obviously because there is an afterlife. Shouldn't Abraham have told the rich man that his brothers needed Jesus, not Moses and the prophets? Moses and the prophets gave them the word of God. Abraham said, 'let them hear them. If they do not hear Moses and the prophets neither will they be convinced if someone were to rise from the dead'. And so it is true of Jesus. He was raised from the dead and they (the Jews) are not convinced.
Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison/Hades.
I'm saying it will be hard for a rich man to enter. But all things are possible with God. The rich will likely be sent to Hades and the poor will inherit the kingdom of God. By poor I don't mean just lacking in money. I mean poor in spirit, lacking in ability, lacking in hope. Those who are suffering now. They will be comforted. Those who endure, they will be rewarded. Those who have no hope, they will receive hope; provided they believe.
Butch5
Member
Please look at the Scriptures. The word Hades is translated the grave. Here are a few passages where Hades is translated the grave.
KJV Genesis 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
KJV Genesis 42:38 And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave.
KJV Genesis 44:29 And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave.
KJV Genesis 44:31 It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave.
KJV 1 Samuel 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
KJV 2 Samuel 3:32 And they buried Abner in Hebron: and the king lifted up his voice, and wept at the grave of Abner; and all the people wept.
KJV 1 Kings 2:6 Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace.
KJV 1 Kings 2:9 Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood.
KJV 1 Kings 14:13 And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.
KJV Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
KJV Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
KJV Job 21:13 They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave.
KJV Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.
KJV Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
KJV Psalm 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
KJV Psalm 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
KJV Psalm 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
KJV Psalm 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
KJV Psalm 88:3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
His would be dead. As per Gen 2:7 as soul consists of a body and the breath of life. If you remove either you no longer have a soul.
When he died, he was no longer a soul (Gen 2:7)
What finger, what tongue? His body was dead remember?
Scripture?
He didn't ask Abraham to ask God, he asked Abraham.
Or, it could be a parable. Assumptions aren't exegesis.
It doesn't answer the question. If this is about afterlife what does Moses and the prophets have to do with it. Should he have told the rich man that his brothers needed Jesus not Moses and the prophets?
The passage doesn't say He preached to spirits in Hades, it seems you're imposing that on the text. Also, if you look at the word order you'll find that Jesus did that after His resurrection. Why did he only preach to those who were disobedient in the days of Noah? If this was about the afterlife shouldn't have a have preached to all of the dead? Actually, if you continue reading on you'll see what He preached.
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1Pe 3:19-22 KJV)
He wasn't preaching to dead humans, He was announcing His authority over the angelic realm
Butch5
Member
But that's not what was said about the rich man. He was said to be rich, he fared sumptuously. Should we assume those of wealth have no chance at the kingdom?
John 3:18
He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
The saints will return when the Lord returns. I think I agree with you that those who receive the mark will receive it during the Tribulation and I think it will be not be long after that before the Lord returns.
He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
The saints will return when the Lord returns. I think I agree with you that those who receive the mark will receive it during the Tribulation and I think it will be not be long after that before the Lord returns.
chessman
Member
Do you realize who contradictory these two statements are? One is Biblical, one is not. Think it through. If the fire is eternal (and it is because it's God's fire) then what fueled the fire before any wicked were even created?
Who told you the wicked are fuel required for God's fire? Last time I checked, God does not rely on the wicked for fuel for His fire.