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How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

My point isn't to get anyone to judge another but rather to show the problems that arise when this parable is considered as teaching about the afterlife. This parable was spoken to the Pharisees. Scripture records that Jesus spoke to the Pharisees in parables so that seeing the would not see and hearing they would not understand. He was purposely hiding the truth of what He was saying. Surely the Pharisees could see what the parable seems to be saying about the afterlife. It would seem then that that is not the meaning of the parable. The purpose of the parable was so that they wouldn't understand not that they would.

The question is how do you understand it? If you don't believe in Hades, then how can you understand the teaching? This is how CI affects the gospel.
 
He wasn't teaching the Pharisees about life after death. The Old Testament teaches that the dead are dead. They are not alive somewhere in a holding cell. The OT says things like the dead know nothing, they have no memory, they cannot praise God, etc. This idea that Jesus is speaking about life after death (as the Greeks believed it) would have Jesus contradicting the OT. Surely no one's going to claim that?

Jesus knew the Scriptures. And I don't see any contradiction. The belief in an afterlife comes from the Old Testament and it is confirmed by the teaching Jesus gave us and by the writings of the apostles - Peter referred to the people of old, the men who perished in the flood and the men of Sodom and Gomorrah, saying the LORD knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment. 2 Peter 2:4-10.

Your assumption - The OT teaches the dead are dead. Yet I see many references to Sheol and the Pit. Isa. 38:10, Pr. 1:12, Psalms 143:7, 88:4, 28:1, Job 33:22

Ezekiel 26:20
then I will thrust you down with those who descend into thePit, to the people of old, and I will make you to dwell in the nether world, among primeval ruins, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you will not be inhabited or have a place in the land of the living.

Ezekiel 31:14
All this is in order that no trees by the waters may grow to lofty height or set their tops among the clouds, and that no trees that drink water may reach up to them in height; for they are all given over to death, to the nether world among mortal men, with those who go down to the Pit.

Ezekiel 31:16
I will make the nations quake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to Sheol with those who go down to the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, will be comforted in the nether world.

Ezekiel 32:18
“Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and send them down, her and the daughters of majestic nations, to the nether world, to those who have gone down to the Pit:

Ezekiel 32:24
“Elam is there, and all her multitude about her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the nether world, who spread terror in the land of the living, and they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.
 
'In my anger a fire is kindled'. What would cause God to be angry? That they forget He is God; that they make idols and believe in false gods, gods of wood, they do evil, they do not keep his commandments. The wicked do those things.

I agree the fire is kindled. I agree it is because of them. Was God angry with them before he created them, before they rebelled against him? Could be. He made them for destruction. Obviously he knew they would rebel.

How about the Christian basis for the eternal fire? How about the LORD? What did Jesus teach? He taught an outer darkness for the wicked servant, the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, the same fire for the goats, eternal punishment.

Isaiah 30:33
For a burning place has long been prepared; yea, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, kindles it.

This is what God declared. The breath of the LORD kindles the fire. Is God going to be angry forever or is his judgment forever? If the fire is eternal then it needs fuel.
 
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When I think of the lake of fire, I think of water, and when I think of water, I think of the word of God and his judgment. Are they in torment because they did not obey the word of God? Regret? Or because they have no hope? Or they know his judgment is forever and ever. The word of God is represented by fire. Is the fire eternal because it is the eternal word of God? The flame being the word of God. In that case, I would agree the fire doesn't have to have anything to consume except it wouldn't exist unless there was something to consume.
 
Hi Jeff,

If you consider what He is addressing it makes sense. He is talking about the death of the priesthood. That doesn't mean the priests will die, but the priesthood will. That will leaved a dead priesthood with living priests. These priests would then be in torment because the priesthood is gone. This happened when the temple was destroyed. Consider what happened at the crucifixion.

50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
(Mat 27:50-51 NKJ)

When the priests saw the veil was torn in two it would have horrified them. No one was allowed to look into the holy of holies except the high p[priest once a year, now here it was exposed for all to see. What that showed was that God's presence had departed. The priesthood was dead.

The rich man in Hades describes this very well. You have a dead man alive in the grave. In reality you have a dead priesthood with the priests alive. It stands to reason that the priests experiencing this would be in torment, this torment stems from God's anger at their killing Jesus. Jesus' parable explains the situation very well. The Jews thought they would be in the kingdom because they were the physical seed of Abraham yet we see the priesthood (rich man) is rejected even though he is the physical offspring of Abraham.
Hi Butch5,
I understand that Jesus is telling the Pharisees about the death of the priesthood. I still think that the imagery He is using that shows the 2 people that have died is in fact real or an example of what will happen to a righteous or an unrighteous person. I know that I am only speculating but I will do my best to explain.

The priesthood is still in effect even after Jesus finishes telling them this story. He is telling them about a future event (very near future I think) that is going to happen after His death on the cross and when the new covenant comes into effect. Just like He is telling of a future event of the priesthood ending, He is also telling of a future event of what the afterlife is like post resurrection and judgment. Since people like the richman currently believe that they are made righteous by their wealth they need to know that this will not get them to Abraham's bosom (the place they believed they would go). Jesus needed to warn them that they would end up in Hades, the place that is eventually thrown into the lake of fire. In Revelation it describes the place as having fire and torment. Jesus says the richman is being tormented by a flame which fits the description of the lake of fire. The fact that the richman is described as having a body and the single drop of water could fit the resurrection and post judgment or it could be descriptive. The single drop of water from Lazarus is most likely describing something. Since the name Lazarus means "God has helped" it could be describing a place where God will no longer be able to help you. I see the problem with a single drop of water not being able to cause any relief from a flame but since the Bible often uses the word water to describe other things maybe it is being used here to describe something else, I just don't know what it is yet. This is just a possible explanation that came to my mind. Blessings
 
When I think of the lake of fire, I think of water,
.
When I think of The Lake of Fire, I think of fire, consumption, destruction of both the body and soul, and Second Death. Water (living water that sources eternal life) seems completely opposite, Biblically speaking. And it's odd that that is a tabu discussion/observation of Scripture.

Is the fire eternal because it is the eternal word of God?
Yes. That is, God's Wrath revealed in His Word and even in His Gospel.


I would agree the fire doesn't have to have anything to consume except it wouldn't exist unless there was something to consume.

Exactly. It existed (and still does and will forever) precisely for the purpose of consumption.
If there were no such thing as evil anticipated by God, there would be no need for God's consuming fire to exist. Providentially, one day, all things will be made right via God consuming all evil within His fire, however.

The only thing I find odd is why some folks think God's Wrath never actually consumes evil. Which, if true, would mean His fire was ineffective for its purpose and contrary to Scripture God is not a consuming fire after all.

It seems God's purpose is to destroy/consume evil one day, not sustain evil because He needs it for fuel as you originally stated.
 
I see the problem with a single drop of water not being able to cause any relief from a flame but since the Bible often uses the word water to describe other things maybe it is being used here to describe something else, I just don't know what it is yet.

Maybe a drop of Jesus' Living Water is all a person needs.
Problem is, the Rich Man (the Pharisees) were looking to Abraham as their father for their righteousness, not The Father and The Son (who was speaking to them face-to-face yet they still couldn't see Him). Likely because they didn't have The Spirit for which to see.

John 4:1, 4, 6, 9-10 Now when Jesus knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John And it was necessary for him to go through Samaria.
And Jacob’s well was there, so Jesus, because he had become tired from the journey, simply sat down at the well. It was about the sixth hour.
So the Samaritan woman said to him, “How do you, being a Jew, ask from me water to drink, since I am a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. Jesus answered and said to her, “If you had known the gift of God and who it is who says to you, ‘Give me water to drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.
 
Maybe a drop of Jesus' Living Water is all a person needs.
Problem is, the Rich Man (the Pharisees) were looking to Abraham as their father for their righteousness, not The Father and The Son (who was speaking to them face-to-face yet they still couldn't see Him). Likely because they didn't have The Spirit for which to see.

John 4:1, 4, 6, 9-10 Now when Jesus knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John And it was necessary for him to go through Samaria.
And Jacob’s well was there, so Jesus, because he had become tired from the journey, simply sat down at the well. It was about the sixth hour.
So the Samaritan woman said to him, “How do you, being a Jew, ask from me water to drink, since I am a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. Jesus answered and said to her, “If you had known the gift of God and who it is who says to you, ‘Give me water to drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.
Well that's something to think about. Thanks chessman!
 
Jesus knew the Scriptures. And I don't see any contradiction. The belief in an afterlife comes from the Old Testament and it is confirmed by the teaching Jesus gave us and by the writings of the apostles - Peter referred to the people of old, the men who perished in the flood and the men of Sodom and Gomorrah, saying the LORD knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment. 2 Peter 2:4-10.

Your assumption - The OT teaches the dead are dead. Yet I see many references to Sheol and the Pit. Isa. 38:10, Pr. 1:12, Psalms 143:7, 88:4, 28:1, Job 33:22

Ezekiel 26:20
then I will thrust you down with those who descend into thePit, to the people of old, and I will make you to dwell in the nether world, among primeval ruins, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you will not be inhabited or have a place in the land of the living.

Ezekiel 31:14
All this is in order that no trees by the waters may grow to lofty height or set their tops among the clouds, and that no trees that drink water may reach up to them in height; for they are all given over to death, to the nether world among mortal men, with those who go down to the Pit.

Ezekiel 31:16
I will make the nations quake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to Sheol with those who go down to the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, will be comforted in the nether world.

Ezekiel 32:18
“Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and send them down, her and the daughters of majestic nations, to the nether world, to those who have gone down to the Pit:

Ezekiel 32:24
“Elam is there, and all her multitude about her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the nether world, who spread terror in the land of the living, and they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.

Hi Mark,

What do people get buried in? Wouldn't that be a pit? It's another word for the grave. These passages are talking about people who have died. There's nothing here about anyone being alive after death.
 
'In my anger a fire is kindled'. What would cause God to be angry? That they forget He is God; that they make idols and believe in false gods, gods of wood, they do evil, they do not keep his commandments. The wicked do those things.

I agree the fire is kindled. I agree it is because of them. Was God angry with them before he created them, before they rebelled against him? Could be. He made them for destruction. Obviously he knew they would rebel.

How about the Christian basis for the eternal fire? How about the LORD? What did Jesus teach? He taught an outer darkness for the wicked servant, the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, the same fire for the goats, eternal punishment.

Isaiah 30:33
For a burning place has long been prepared; yea, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, kindles it.

This is what God declared. The breath of the LORD kindles the fire. Is God going to be angry forever or is his judgment forever? If the fire is eternal then it needs fuel.

The song of Moses where that passage is found speaks of Israel's rebellion after Moses dies. That is the reason for God's anger. However, the fire is not eternal, Jesus didn't say eternal fire, He said, "aionios" fire. The problem is that the English translators have translated "aionios" as eternal when they shouldn't have.
 
I do believe in Hades. I've stated that it is the grave.

Hades is the netherworld after life. You can't say you believe in Hades if you don't believe in the netherworld or an afterlife.

How can you believe in the unseen things, like heaven, for example, if you can't believe in Hades? (where the unrighteous souls are kept under punishment until judgment. 2 Peter 2:4-10)

The rich man was unrighteous not because he was rich, but because of the way he treated Lazarus. Lazarus had to eat the scraps that fell off the table. Lazarus was full of sores. The rich man didn't do anything to help him. He let his dogs lick Lazarus' sores.
 
What do people get buried in? Wouldn't that be a pit? It's another word for the grave. These passages are talking about people who have died. There's nothing here about anyone being alive after death.

No. You wouldn't call a grave a pit. A pit is for burning things (like a fire pit).
 
Hades is the netherworld after life. You can't say you believe in Hades if you don't believe in the netherworld or an afterlife.

Hades is the nether world if you believe Greek mythology, I don't. The Biblical usage of the word Hades is the grave.

How can you believe in the unseen things, like heaven, for example, if you can't believe in Hades? (where the unrighteous souls are kept under punishment until judgment. 2 Peter 2:4-10)

Souls aren't kept anywhere, they die. Gen 2:7, a soul is a body and the breath of life. The body returns to the dust and the breath of life returns to God, there is nothing left to be punished until the judgment. How does that make sense? If some one is punished they've already been judged.

The rich man was unrighteous not because he was rich, but because of the way he treated Lazarus. Lazarus had to eat the scraps that fell off the table. Lazarus was full of sores. The rich man didn't do anything to help him. He let his dogs lick Lazarus' sores.

There is nothing in that passage that says the rich man was not righteous or that Lazarus was righteous.
 
You would not call it a pit.

They didn't call it a pit that is the English translation. You can't get into the minds of the people who wrote and say they wouldn't say this or they wouldn't say that. All we can do is go by what is written, how I think someone should or should not have worded a given passage doesn't matter. What matters is what they said.
 
They didn't call it a pit that is the English translation. You can't get into the minds of the people who wrote and say they wouldn't say this or they wouldn't say that. All we can do is go by what is written, how I think someone should or should not have worded a given passage doesn't matter. What matters is what they said.

Every word in the English Bible is a English word. Grave is a English word.

You would not call a grave a pit.

What do you mean they didn't call it a pit? Who is 'they'?
 
Every word in the English Bible is a English word. Grave is a English word.

You would not call a grave a pit.

What do you mean they didn't call it a pit? Who is 'they'?


Mark,

You just decide what words the people would use. Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where the pit is a place under the earth where the souls of the wicked are punished?
 
Souls aren't kept anywhere, they die.

The body dies. The wicked soul goes to Hades. The righteous soul goes to rest. Only God can kill the soul. Mt. 10:28

As for the prophets - ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and theGod of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” Mt. 22:32 Do you think Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead? No. They are alive.

'And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli′jah, talking with him'. Mt. 17:1-3 Guess what. Moses and Eli'jab are alive.

O Death! Where is thy sting?

Gen 2:7, a soul is a body and the breath of life. The body returns to the dust and the breath of life returns to God, there is nothing left to be punished until the judgment. How does that make sense? If some one is punished they've already been judged.

Your concept is wrong. Man is a cup for the spirit. The inside of the cup touches the spirit, so that man can feel sorrow and pain and joy and happiness in his soul. The wicked are not destroyed until the judgment, and the punishment is eternal destruction. Their worm does not die.

The rich man was unrighteous not because he was rich, but because of the way he treated Lazarus. Lazarus had to eat the scraps that fell off the table. Lazarus was full of sores. The rich man didn't do anything to help him. He let his dogs lick Lazarus' sores.

There is nothing in that passage that says the rich man was not righteous or that Lazarus was righteous.

Too bad you don't see it.
 
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