Butch5
Member
Yeah, but it was the smoke of their torment that was under consideration. That statement is referring to people who are alive, not dead.
I'm not sure why you posted John 3:18
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- Thread starter jeff77
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Yeah, but it was the smoke of their torment that was under consideration. That statement is referring to people who are alive, not dead.
I'm not sure why you posted John 3:18
We should take the Lord at his word and not assume anything. Jesus said it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom; 'easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.' With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
So in this particular teaching the rich man is in Hades. He is in torment. He received good things in this life and evil things in the afterlife and Lazarus received evil things in this life and rest in the afterlife. That's the reality of it. I'm not going to judge anyone to say they have no chance.
Butch5
Member
My point isn't to get anyone to judge another but rather to show the problems that arise when this parable is considered as teaching about the afterlife. This parable was spoken to the Pharisees. Scripture records that Jesus spoke to the Pharisees in parables so that seeing the would not see and hearing they would not understand. He was purposely hiding the truth of what He was saying. Surely the Pharisees could see what the parable seems to be saying about the afterlife. It would seem then that that is not the meaning of the parable. The purpose of the parable was so that they wouldn't understand not that they would.
No. You can't say that based on one teaching.
Jesus also said, 'Truly I say to you, it will hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.' Mt. 19:23, 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God' and 'With men this is impossible but with God all things are possible.'
What you can say is the rich man was in Hades. He saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
My Bible says Sheol in those instances. So what are you trying to prove? That you can replace Sheol with grave?
I don't think so. In many instances 'grave' refers to the hole in the ground where the body is placed.
1 Kings 13:30
And he laid the body in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying, “Alas, my brother!”
1 Kings 13:31
And after he had buried him, he said to his sons, “When I die, bury me in the grave in which the man of God is buried; lay my bones beside his bones.
Psalm 49:14
Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; straight to the grave they descend, and their form shall waste away; Sheol shall be their home. Here their form wastes away in the grave and their home is Sheol.
Butch5
Member
Have you read the passage?
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. (Luk 16:1 KJV)
He was addressing the Pharisees. consider this,
NKJ Matthew 13:1 On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: "Behold, a sower went out to sow.
4 "And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them.
5 "Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.
6 "But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.
7 "And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.
8 "But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
9 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:`Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should1 heal them2.'
16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
17 "for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. (Mat 13:1-17 NKJ)
In this passage Jesus said that He spoke to them in Parables so they wouldn't understand. The purpose of the parable was to to speak God's word to them in a way they would not understand. It seems obvious from this that there is a meaning in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man that the Pharisees would not understand. I think it's obvious a literal understanding of the passage could be had by the Pharisees.
Butch5
Member
Sheole is the grave. Sheole is translated Hades in the Septuagint (Greek OT) in all of those passages the I quoted. The grave is where the body goes, Hades is where the body goes. The idea that you've suggested for Hades is not the Biblical teaching of Hades it's the Greek idea of Hades. It was the Greeks who believed that the dead were somehow alive under the earth and they even gave the place a god, guess what his name was, Hades.
That's what you think. What am I supposed to say?
God has a soul. Paul writes we keep our souls.
Hebrews 10:37 “For yet a little while,
and the coming one shall come and shall not tarry;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.
Did Paul lose his soul when he died?
jeff77
Member
I understand the argument that Lazarus/rich man is a parable, but to me personally it's just mind-boggling that Jesus would use examples of conscious existence after death in any teaching if there really is none. Is there any other parable that He uses examples of things that could not really happen?
You're right. The fire is kindle by God's anger. What fuelled the fire before the wicked were created? Is that a philosophical question?
Ezekiel 15:6
Therefore thus says the Lord God: Like the wood of the vine among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so will I give up the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 21:32
You shall be fuel for the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land; you shall be no more remembered; for I the Lord have spoken.”
Isaiah 30:33
For a burning place has long been prepared; yea, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, kindles it.
Jeremiah 5:14
Therefore thus says the Lord, the God of hosts: “Because they have spoken this word, behold, I am making my words in your mouth a fire, and this people wood, and the fire shall devour them.
The wicked were made for destruction. I don't believe God is going to keep the fire going for no reason. If the fire remains and there is no wood, then what purpose does the fire serve? Yet it says the fire shall not be quenched.
If they were annihilated, their torment would cease. Then John's vision would not be true. The smoke of their torment would not go up forever and ever.
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Your first statement is wrong. Sheol is not the grave. Sheol is translated correctly.
My Bible says Sheol, not grave. I trust the translators did a good job of translating.
Jesus said the rich man was in Hades. He even painted a picture for us. But that's not good enough. So now what he said is not Biblical? I'm not using Greek mythology as my authority. I'm using the word of God.
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Butch5
Member
Paul was a soul and yes, when he died his soul did not exist anymore because it's two components, the body and the breath of life went to different places. The breath of life went back to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7) and his body returned to dust Gen (3:19) in the graved (Hades).
Butch5
Member
Look what you said, "the wicked were made for destruction." Destruction is not eternal burning it's destruction. Also. the word quench means to put out, the fire cannot be put out. That doesn't mean it will never go out. Again, the passage in Rev that speaks of the smoke ascending is speaking of living people not dead people after the judgment. Also, the passage doesn't say forever, that is the English translation, however, "aion" doesn't mean forever, it means "an age."
If you research the word "aion" and look at how it is used in the Scriptures, you'll see that it cannot possibly mean eternal. It is "aion" in the New Testament and Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) and "owlam" in the Old Testment.
Jeff,
I agree. And so does commentator, William Hendriksen, in his New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Luke (Baker Academic 1978). His exposition on this parable is on pp. 782-790. Part of this exposition states:
'The condition of the dead and the communication between them is represented here in very literal, earthly terms, so that a vivid impression is created. It should be clear, nevertheless, that much of what is here conveyed cannot be interpreted literally. For example, we read about the lifting up of the eyes, of seeing people afar off, of a figure and of a tongue, even though we have been told that the rich man was buried.
This does not take away the fact, however, that certain definite truths concerning the life hereafter are conveyed here, one of them being that the departed ones are not asleep but fully awake: another, that some are saved, others are suffering....
Note the word flame. That hell is a place of fire or of the flame is the language of Scripture throughout (Isa. 33;14; 66:24; Matt. 3:12....)
Yet, hell is also the abode where darkness dwells. For some it is place of 'outer darkness' (Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 2:30). It is the region where the evil spirits are kept 'in everlasting chains under darkness' (Jude 6; cf Jude 13).
But if hell is a place of fire, how can ti also be a place of darkness? Ae not these two concepts mutually exclusive? Well, not always necessarily. For example, by means of a certain form of radiation people have been seriously burned even though when it happened they were in a dark room. Nevertheless, it is advisable not to speculate. Everlasting fire has been prepared 'for the devil and his angel,' yet these are spirits. It should be sufficient to conclude from all this that such terms as fire and darkness should not be taken too literally. Each in its own way indicates the terrors of the lost in the place from which there is no return' (p. 785).
As far as this Reformed commentator, William Hendriksen, is concerned, you are on the biblical side of interpretation.
This parable teaches a fundamental - what happens after death for believer and unbeliever. And it is a conscious existence, not extinction/annihilation.
In Christ,
Oz
Butch5
Member
Hi Jeff,
If you consider what He is addressing it makes sense. He is talking about the death of the priesthood. That doesn't mean the priests will die, but the priesthood will. That will leaved a dead priesthood with living priests. These priests would then be in torment because the priesthood is gone. This happened when the temple was destroyed. Consider what happened at the crucifixion.
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
(Mat 27:50-51 NKJ)
When the priests saw the veil was torn in two it would have horrified them. No one was allowed to look into the holy of holies except the high p[priest once a year, now here it was exposed for all to see. What that showed was that God's presence had departed. The priesthood was dead.
The rich man in Hades describes this very well. You have a dead man alive in the grave. In reality you have a dead priesthood with the priests alive. It stands to reason that the priests experiencing this would be in torment, this torment stems from God's anger at their killing Jesus. Jesus' parable explains the situation very well. The Jews thought they would be in the kingdom because they were the physical seed of Abraham yet we see the priesthood (rich man) is rejected even though he is the physical offspring of Abraham.
Butch5
Member
The passage says that Jesus was speaking to them. He spoke to them in Parables. The Scriptures say,
33 And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it.
34 But without a parable He did not speak to them. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples. (Mar 4:33-34 NKJ)
He wasn't teaching the Pharisees about life after death. The Old Testament teaches that the dead are dead. They are not alive somewhere in a holding cell. The OT says things like the dead know nothing, they have no memory, they cannot praise God, etc. This idea that Jesus is speaking about life after death (as the Greeks believed it) would have Jesus contradicting the OT. Surely no one's going to claim that?
chessman
Member
Technically it is an emperically-logicaly closed philosophical question, yes. I.e. the answer to my question can be known irrefutably to prove a point. If there are no wicked in existence to be fuel for a fire, yet it's burning already, the conclusion must be that the wicked are not really the necessary fuel for it. That was my point.
Notice, both verses are a prediction of the wicked being thrown into an existing fire. In other words, the fire was burning long before the wicked get placed there. Also notice, there's every indication that as vines burn up (are consumed by fire) so are the wicked. Which is the Biblical basis for annihilation. Not some kinder/gentler Hell which has been stated.
Hebrews 12:29 For indeed our God is a consuming fire.
God's eternal fire, consumes whatever it touches. People that speak otherwise haven't really thought this through. Just look at Sodom's destruction for example.