How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[Butch5]

The body dies. The wicked soul goes to Hades. The righteous soul goes to rest. Only God can kill the soul. Mt. 10:28

Have you looked a Gen 2:7?

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

This passage describes the creation of man. It says, God formed the man out of the dust of the earth. Whatever a man is it comes from the dust of the earth. The God breathed the breath/spirit of life into the man and he became something else. He became a living soul. Thus a soul consists of two parts the breath/spirit of God and a body. If you take away either part you no longer have a soul. The Scriptures are clear what happens to these two parts at death, The breath/spirit returns to God and the body returns to the dust. There is nothing left at that point to go on and suffer.

As for the prophets - ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and theGod of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” Mt. 22:32 Do you think Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead? No. They are alive.

If you read that passage in context Jesus is talking about the resurrection, they will be alive at the resurrection.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22:31-32 KJV)

Notice He said as touching the resurrection of the dead, not the living. Notice Paul's words,

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. (Rom 4:16-17 KJV)

'And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli′jah, talking with him'. Mt. 17:1-3 Guess what. Moses and Eli'jab are alive.

According to Luke it was a vision.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:3-9 KJV)

Your concept is wrong. Man is a cup for the spirit. The inside of the cup touches the spirit, so that man can feel sorrow and pain and joy and happiness in his soul. The wicked are not destroyed until the judgment, and the punishment is eternal destruction. Their worm does not die.

My concept of man aligns nicely with the creation account. On the other hand the idea that man is a spirit that lives in a body in the concept that cannot be supported. There is not a single passage of Scripture that says man is a spirit. However, there Scripture that says man is dust.

Too bad you don't see it.

There's nothing to see. The passage says nothing about either being righteous or wicked.

 

[MarkT]

Have you looked a Gen 2:7?

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

This passage describes the creation of man. It says, God formed the man out of the dust of the earth. Whatever a man is it comes from the dust of the earth. The God breathed the breath/spirit of life into the man and he became something else. He became a living soul. Thus a soul consists of two parts the breath/spirit of God and a body. If you take away either part you no longer have a soul. The Scriptures are clear what happens to these two parts at death, The breath/spirit returns to God and the body returns to the dust. There is nothing left at that point to go on and suffer.

Nothing except you. We are both flesh and blood. We are both alive. But you are not me, and I am not you. So you have a soul and I have a soul. My soul belongs to me. Your soul belongs to you. The inside of the cup allows you to experience life. It's the part of the cup you can't see. This part does not die.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

If the body dies, and the breath of life leaves the body, is the soul killed? No. Not according to Jesus. According to Jesus you are not killed, only your body is killed. Your soul lives. And if your soul lives, then you will exist in an afterlife.

 

[MarkT]

If you read that passage in context Jesus is talking about the resurrection, they will be alive at the resurrection.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22:31-32 KJV)

Notice He said as touching the resurrection of the dead, not the living.

No. According to their understanding of the resurrection of the dead, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were dead, but Jesus told them they are not dead. God is not God of the dead, but of the living. This is why they were astonished.

 

[MarkT]

According to Luke it was a vision.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:3-9 KJV)

So what's your point? Were Moses and Eli'jah talking with Jesus or not?

 

[MarkT]

My concept of man aligns nicely with the creation account. On the other hand the idea that man is a spirit that lives in a body in the concept that cannot be supported. There is not a single passage of Scripture that says man is a spirit. However, there Scripture that says man is dust.

I thought you said man is a living soul.

 

[MarkT]

There's nothing to see. The passage says nothing about either being righteous or wicked.

You may have not noticed but Lazarus didn't go down to Hades. He was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom. So was Lazarus buried? I would think so. Yet he didn't go down to Hades. As far as righteousness goes, that you have to judge for yourself.

 

[MarkT]

My concept of man aligns nicely with the creation account. On the other hand the idea that man is a spirit that lives in a body in the concept that cannot be supported. There is not a single passage of Scripture that says man is a spirit. However, there Scripture that says man is dust.

Dust plus life equals living dust, or am I wrong in my calculation? What about the soul? What about the part that lives by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God?

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[Butch5]

Nothing except you.

The "you" returns to the dust. Again, look at Gen 2:7, God created man from the dust of the ground. The "you" is dust, consider God's words.

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; {bring...: Heb. cause to bud}
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
(Gen 3:18-19 KJV)

God said to Adam, for dust you are.

We are both flesh and blood. We are both alive. But you are not me, and I am not you. So you have a soul and I have a soul. My soul belongs to me. Your soul belongs to you. The inside of the cup allows you to experience life. It's the part of the cup you can't see. This part does not die.

We're not a cup, our body is who we are. What allows us to experience life is the breath/spirit of God that is in us, I agree that that doesn't die. However, that is God's it's not who we are.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

If the body dies, and the breath of life leaves the body, is the soul killed? No. Not according to Jesus. According to Jesus you are not killed, only your body is killed. Your soul lives. And if your soul lives, then you will exist in an afterlife.

If the body dies and the breath of life leaves the body, yes, the soul is dead. To understand Jesus' words here it helps to look at the way the word soul is used. When it is used concretely it means a physical living being. However, when it is used abstractly it is usually translated, life. So, while man is able to kill the body, he cannot ultimately extinguish the life because God is the one who holds life in His hand. Everyone who has lived will one day be resurrected, both the good and the evil, so everyone will live again. However, at the judgement when God destroys one's body and soul (life) that's it there is no coming back from that.

25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? (Mat 6:25 NKJ)

The word life in this passage is the Greek word "Psuche" soul.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5,
I understand that Jesus is telling the Pharisees about the death of the priesthood. I still think that the imagery He is using that shows the 2 people that have died is in fact real or an example of what will happen to a righteous or an unrighteous person. I know that I am only speculating but I will do my best to explain.

The priesthood is still in effect even after Jesus finishes telling them this story. He is telling them about a future event (very near future I think) that is going to happen after His death on the cross and when the new covenant comes into effect. Just like He is telling of a future event of the priesthood ending, He is also telling of a future event of what the afterlife is like post resurrection and judgment. Since people like the richman currently believe that they are made righteous by their wealth they need to know that this will not get them to Abraham's bosom (the place they believed they would go). Jesus needed to warn them that they would end up in Hades, the place that is eventually thrown into the lake of fire. In Revelation it describes the place as having fire and torment. Jesus says the richman is being tormented by a flame which fits the description of the lake of fire. The fact that the richman is described as having a body and the single drop of water could fit the resurrection and post judgment or it could be descriptive. The single drop of water from Lazarus is most likely describing something. Since the name Lazarus means "God has helped" it could be describing a place where God will no longer be able to help you. I see the problem with a single drop of water not being able to cause any relief from a flame but since the Bible often uses the word water to describe other things maybe it is being used here to describe something else, I just don't know what it is yet. This is just a possible explanation that came to my mind. Blessings

Hi Jeff,

Thought of it being after the judgment is something I hadn't thought of. There are few things though, Hades is not Gehenna, plus nothing is said about either one, Lazarus or the rich man, being righteous or wicked.

 

[MarkT]

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

This passage describes the creation of man. It says, God formed the man out of the dust of the earth. Whatever a man is it comes from the dust of the earth. The God breathed the breath/spirit of life into the man and he became something else. He became a living soul. Thus a soul consists of two parts the breath/spirit of God and a body. If you take away either part you no longer have a soul. The Scriptures are clear what happens to these two parts at death, The breath/spirit returns to God and the body returns to the dust. There is nothing left at that point to go on and suffer.

I would disagree with this. The soul doesn't consist of two parts. Maybe if you said man consists of two parts, I might agree.

In the light of Christ, man is a vessel for the spirit so Gen. 2:7 is saying man became a living vessel for the spirit; a living soul. You could say man has a spiritual being as well as a physical being. Paul simply refers to the spiritual being as the inner man.

 

[Butch5]

I would disagree with this. The soul doesn't consist of two parts. Maybe if you said man consists of two parts, I might agree.

You're disagreeing with the Scriptures. It's right there in black and white.

In the light of Christ, man is a vessel for the spirit so Gen. 2:7 is saying man became a living vessel for the spirit; a living soul. You could say man has a spiritual being as well as a physical being. Paul simply refers to the spiritual being as the inner man.

There is nowhere that Jesus says the man is vessel for the spirit. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says man is a spiritual being.

 

[MarkT]

You have to figure it out for yourself Butch.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The physical being lives on bread. The spiritual being lives on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Jesus had both a physical being, the Son of man, and a spiritual being, the Son of God.

Romans 9:22, 23, 24 We are vessels.

Eph 3:16 The inner man.

 

[MarkT]

Most people neglect their spiritual being unto death. Consequently the Lord declared them dead, saying, 'Let the dead bury the dead.' Mt. 8:22

 

[Butch5]

You have to figure it out for yourself Butch.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The physical being lives on bread. The spiritual being lives on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Jesus had both a physical being, the Son of man, and a spiritual being, the Son of God.

Romans 9:22, 23, 24 We are vessels.

Eph 3:16 The inner man.

Mark,

There is no spiritual being that is a man. You won't find that in Scripture.

 

[MarkT]

Mark,

There is no spiritual being that is a man. You won't find that in Scripture.

I said man has a spiritual being.

Psalm 62:1
For God alone my soul waits in silence; from him comes my salvation.

Psalm 119:81 My soul languishes for thy salvation; I hope in thy word.

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall exult in my God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

1 Peter 1:9 As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls.

David's soul waits in silence. David's soul exults in God. David's soul languishes. The outcome of our faith is the salvation of our soul.

Do you understand the subject of Gen 2:7 is man? Man became a living soul; he became a living vessel for the spirit. Gen. 2:7 isn't a definition; the way you see it. It doesn't say this is what a soul is. It doesn't say the soul consists of two parts.

I gave you what Jesus said. The soul lives on the word of God.

Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 15:50 But according to you, no flesh and blood equals no soul. So what is saved? According to you, the soul is part flesh and blood and part spirit. Without the flesh there is no soul; no soul to save. So if Paul is right, is nothing saved? If Paul is right, there would be no soul to save according to you.

Jesus said you can kill the body but you can't kill the soul suggesting the soul continues to live. But according to you, killing the body means there is no soul to kill.

No. I have to reject your understanding.

 

[Butch5]

I said man has a spiritual being.

Psalm 62:1
For God alone my soul waits in silence; from him comes my salvation.

Psalm 119:81 My soul languishes for thy salvation; I hope in thy word.

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall exult in my God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

1 Peter 1:9 As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls.

David's soul waits in silence. David's soul exults in God. David's soul languishes. The outcome of our faith is the salvation of our soul.

Mark, what is salvation? Isn't it the resurrection? The resurrection is of the body. What is saved in salvation? Isn't it ones life? In the passages you quoted "soul" is used in an abstract way and means life.

Do you understand the subject of Gen 2:7 is man? Man became a living soul; he became a living vessel for the spirit. Gen. 2:7 isn't a definition; the way you see it. It doesn't say this is what a soul is. It doesn't say the soul consists of two parts.

Gen 2:7 describes the creation of man. It tells us how God made man. The passage says that God created man from the dust of the earth. So, that's what man is the dust of the earth. God states clearly to Adam, you are dust. He didn't say you are spirit that lives in a body, He didn't say you're a spiritual being, He said, 'you are dust.'

Solomon said that man and animals all have one spirit. In Gen 2:7 we see that God gave man a spirit. If man only has one spirit and God gave man His spirit it stands to reason that the spirit in a man belongs to God.

I gave you what Jesus said. The soul lives on the word of God.

Yes, man lives on the word of God.

Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 15:50 But according to you, no flesh and blood equals no soul. So what is saved? According to you, the soul is part flesh and blood and part spirit. Without the flesh there is no soul; no soul to save. So if Paul is right, is nothing saved? If Paul is right, there would be no soul to save according to you.

There is a soul to save. All people will be resurrected.

Jesus said you can kill the body but you can't kill the soul suggesting the soul continues to live. But according to you, killing the body means there is no soul to kill.

It doesn't suggest that the soul lives on if one understand the word soul from a Biblical perspective.

 

[MarkT]

Mark, what is salvation? Isn't it the resurrection?

No.

The resurrection is of the body. What is saved in salvation?

The soul is saved.

Isn't it ones life?

No. Technically you are the one who is saved. The soul is your spiritual being. You might want to find out who you are.

In the passages you quoted "soul" is used in an abstract way and means life.

There's nothing abstract about it.

Gen 2:7 describes the creation of man. It tells us how God made man. The passage says that God created man from the dust of the earth. So, that's what man is the dust of the earth. God states clearly to Adam, you are dust. He didn't say you are spirit that lives in a body, He didn't say you're a spiritual being, He said, 'you are dust.'

Can dust hear? Can dust understand? Who was God speaking to? When God said, 'You are dust', he was referring to Adam's physical being.

Solomon said that man and animals all have one spirit. In Gen 2:7 we see that God gave man a spirit. If man only has one spirit and God gave man His spirit it stands to reason that the spirit in a man belongs to God.

The spirit gives man the ability to understand. Job 32:8 How can you say there is one spirit if you and I understand differently? You don't have my spirit. You have your spirit. I have my spirit.

 

[Butch5]

No.

It's not? What would you suggest salvation is?

The soul is saved.

What is the soul?

23 "Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life; you may not eat the life with the meat. (Deu 12:23 NKJ)
17 "for my father fought for you, risked his life, and delivered you out of the hand of Midian; (Jdg 9:17 NKJ)
11 Saul also sent messengers to David's house to wat
39 "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. (Mat 10:39 NKJ)
22 Then He said to His disciples, "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on. (Luk 12:22 NKJ)
24 "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. (Act 20:24 NKJ)

In all of these passages the word translated life is the same Greek or Hebrew word that is translated soul. According to Gen, 2:7 the soul is the body and the breath of life which gives life. If the soul is saved then the body must also be saved.

No. Technically you are the one who is saved. The soul is your spiritual being. You might want to find out who you are.

Not according to Scripture. The idea that the soul is something apart from man comes from the Greek philosophers.

There's nothing abstract about it.

Most words can be used in different ways, some concretely and some abstractly.

Can dust hear? Can dust understand?

Apparently it can when it has the breath of life.

Who was God speaking to? When God said, 'You are dust', he was referring to Adam's physical being.

"Referring to?" He was speaking to Adam, He didn't say you body is dust, He said, 'for dust you are.'

The spirit gives man the ability to understand. Job 32:8 How can you say there is one spirit if you and I understand differently? You don't have my spirit. You have your spirit. I have my spirit.

According to Ecc 3 there is one spirit that is in both man and animal, 'they all have one breath'. The breath/spirit of life gives man the ability to understand. However, we know that all people are different, they look different, they act different, etc. The reason you and I would think differently even though we have the same spirit would be because of the differences in the make up of our brains, the influences of our relationships, the influences of our environments, etc.

I've used the illustration of a computer. Suppose you have two identical computers with different operating systems and you apply electricity to them. Both computers will operated differently even though they are being supplied with the very same electricity. Likewise two brains that programmed differently can still operate with the same breath /spirit of life.

 

[MarkT]

What is the soul?

23 "Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life; you may not eat the life with the meat. (Deu 12:23 NKJ)
17 "for my father fought for you, risked his life, and delivered you out of the hand of Midian; (Jdg 9:17 NKJ)
11 Saul also sent messengers to David's house to wat
39 "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. (Mat 10:39 NKJ)
22 Then He said to His disciples, "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on. (Luk 12:22 NKJ)
24 "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. (Act 20:24 NKJ)

In all of these passages the word translated life is the same Greek or Hebrew word that is translated soul. According to Gen, 2:7 the soul is the body and the breath of life which gives life. If the soul is saved then the body must also be saved.

The soul is the vessel for our spiritual being.

I think they would have said soul if that was the case. But both the KJV and the RSV say life not soul. So there is nothing about the soul in these passages.

Jesus said the body can be killed (you can destroy this temple), but the soul can not be killed by those who can kill the body (by those who can destroy the temple).

Paul often refers to the perishable body as the body of sin and death; also the earthly tent. 2 Cor. 5:1-4

 

[Butch5]

The soul is the vessel for our spiritual being.

Mark, can you give me anything from Scripture that suggests anything like this?

I think they would have said soul if that was the case. But both the KJV and the RSV say life not soul. So there is nothing about the soul in these passages.

The point I was making is that both the Hebrew and Greek do use the word soul. It is the English translation that uses life.

Jesus said the body can be killed (you can destroy this temple), but the soul can not be killed by those who can kill the body (by those who can destroy the temple).

He said fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. The point of the passage is to not fear men because all they can do is kill, they cannot determine one's ultimate outcome. They can kill but God will make alive again. Every one will one day be resurrected, both the good and the evil. So what man kills is only dead for a time. However, when God resurrects men and judges them if they are wicked they will be destroyed, body and soul. That means there is not coming back. Once God destroys the soul (life) its destroyed forever.

Paul often refers to the perishable body as the body of sin and death; also the earthly tent. 2 Cor. 5:1-4

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.