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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?
- Thread starter jeff77
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Butch5
Member
Mark, when you say Adam's spirit I understand you to be saying the spirit that is Adam. That is what has not been proven. We've looked at the creation of man, the Scriptures show plain that man has one spirit in him and that is the breath/spirit of life. There is nothing in the Scriptures that say man is a spirit. The soul as I've pointed out with quite a few passages is a living being. It's not something that exists apart from the body. The idea that man is a spirit comes from Greek philosophy. For your argument to be valid you'll need to establish from the Scriptures that man "is" a spirit.
I quoted you what Jesus said. Jesus said God can destroy both body and soul in hell.
Isa. 10:18 'the Lord will destroy both body and soul.'
Obviously the soul can not be the body of flesh as you say. The life of the flesh is in the blood. Lev. 17:11 But the soul lives by the word of God. 'My soul and my body also Ps. 31:9
Psalm 42:5
Why are you cast down, O my soul, and why are you disquieted within me? Hope in God; for I shall again praise him, my help
Psalm 42:6
and my God. My soul is cast down within me, therefore I remember thee from the land of Jordan and of Hermon, from Mount Mizar.
Psalm 42:11
Why are you cast down, O my soul, and why are you disquieted within me? Hope in God; for I shall again praise him, my help and my God.
Psalm 43:5
Why are you cast down, O my soul, and why are you disquieted within me? Hope in God; for I shall again praise him, my help and my God.
The soul is within. The soul lives. 2 Sam. 11:11 The soul of the child came into him, and he revived.' 1 Kings 17:21,22 The soul cleaves to the dust. Ps. 119:25 The passions of the flesh wage war against your soul. 1 Peter 2:11 Lot was vexed in his righteous soul. 2 Peter 2:8 Within.
So the soul is not the body. It touches the body. It cleaves to the body. But it is not the body.
Mt. 12:43 The unclean spirit passes out of a man. He passes through waterless places but he finds no rest. So he returns to his house (the flesh) and he goes and brings with him seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there.
The soul searches for the word of God, and finds no rest. Then the man returns to the flesh.
Butch5
Member
Hi Mark,
Yes, you quoted Jesus words. What you've explained here is how you understand these passages. My question is, have you considered that there is another way they could be understood? The Psalms use poetic language and often is figurative, so what does it mean when David says my soul is cast down? Is he saying that an immaterial part of him has been thrown to the ground? Or, Is he saying he is depressed or feeling down? I think most would agree that it is the latter, thus showing it is being used in a figurative way. In this usage a soul doesn't have to be a separate part of a man as you're suggesting, but rather the whole man. This is what I was referring to when I spoke of the word being used concretely or abstractly. If you take notice, in the passages you posted here the word soul could be translated life and the passages would still mean the same thing.
This is one of the problems in the English translations, many times they interpret that same Greek and Hebrew words with different English words. By doing this they are actually injecting their own theology into the text. Instead of translating the words "Nephesh" or "Psuche" as soul everywhere they appear, they translate them using different words and the reader doesn't see that it is the same word. In some passages such as those you posted the translate "Nephesh" as soul and it appears that the "soul" is something that can be cast away, yet when the same word is tied directly to the body they translate is as "life" as in the case where Scripture says the "soul" is in the blood.
8 And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, that offereth a burnt offering or sacrifice,
9 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer it unto the LORD; even that man shall be cut off from among his people.
10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. (Lev 17:8-12 KJV)
The word life in verse 11 is Nephesh, soul. This passage is important because it uses the word soul in different ways. Notice firstly that the soul is in the blood, this passage is speaking of the animal sacrifices, so the passage is saying the soul, of the animal is in the blood. What does that mean the soul is in the blood? It's translated life in the English translations and it's pretty clear that when the blood of the animal pours out the animal dies, thus the soul (life) of the animal is in the blood, without the blood the animal dies. This passage also says that the blood was giving to make atonement for their souls. The animal dies for their sins, thus a soul was given for the atonement of their souls. Can you see how this is one life given for the atonement of another? This is still true under the new covenant, Jesus gave His soul as an atonement for our soul, yet we know from Scripture that it was His life that He laid down on the cross for our sins.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.(Isa 53:12-1 KJV)
This passage shows that Christ gave His soul for the sins of many. That was His life, it wasn't some immaterial part of Him that doesn't die.
I didn't say the soul was the body, I said the body is part of the soul. According to Gen 2:7 a soul consists of a body and the breath/spirit of life. That's a clear statement from Scripture, so whatever we claim a soul is, it must also incorporate what Gen 2:7 states or we are misunderstanding the word.
He is asking his soul, Why are you cast down?
His soul is disquieted within him. This is the proper understanding. To quiet his soul, he reminds himself and his soul to hope in God.
When a man hears good news, his soul rejoices. So he says, 'God is my God and my help. So hearing this, his soul is quieted.
There is nothing figurative about it.
The proper understanding of the soul is almost unheard of today. Who would say, 'O my soul' today?
His soul is disquieted within him. This is the proper understanding. To quiet his soul, he reminds himself and his soul to hope in God.
When a man hears good news, his soul rejoices. So he says, 'God is my God and my help. So hearing this, his soul is quieted.
There is nothing figurative about it.
The proper understanding of the soul is almost unheard of today. Who would say, 'O my soul' today?
It would not mean the same thing. Soul is specific. Life could mean anything.
It makes no sense to say words are translated wrong or we will never arrive at the truth. We have the Bible, translated. Read the RSV.
Cast down. Not cast away.
There's no problem with the English translations. You're assuming the antecedent, that the English translators have a theology that comes from something else. Where would their theology come from if not from the Bible?
From the preface to the RSV -
The King James Version of the New Testament was based upon a Greek text that was marred by mistakes, containing the accumulated errors of fourteen centuries of manuscript copying. It was essentially the Greek text of the New Testament as edited by Beza, 1589, who closely followed that published by Erasmus, 1516-1535, which was based upon a few medieval manuscripts. The earliest and best of the eight manuscripts which Erasmus consulted was from the tenth century, and he made the least use of it because it differed most from the commonly received text; Beza had access to two manuscripts of great value, dating from the fifth and sixth centuries, but he made very little use of them because they differed from the text published by Erasmus.
We now possess many more ancient manuscripts of the New Testament, and are far better equipped to seek to recover the original wording of the Greek text. The evidence for the text of the books of the New Testament is better than for any other ancient book, both in the number of extant manuscripts and in the nearness of the date of some of these manuscripts to the date when the book was originally written.
The revisers in the 1870’s had most of the evidence that we now have for the Greek text, though the most ancient of all extant manuscripts of the Greek New Testament were not discovered until 1931. But they lacked the resources which discoveries within the past eighty years have afforded for understanding the vocabulary, grammar, and idioms of the Greek New Testament. An amazing body of Greek papyri has been unearthed in Egypt since the 1870’s—private letters, official reports, wills, business accounts, petitions, and other such trivial, everyday recordings of the activities of human beings. In 1895 appeared the first of Adolf Deissmann’s studies of these ordinary materials. He proved that many words which had hitherto been assumed to belong to what was called “Biblical Greek” were current in the spoken vernacular of the first century A.D. The New Testament was written in the Koiné, the common Greek which was spoken and understood practically everywhere throughout the Roman Empire in the early centuries of the Christian era. This development in the study of New Testament Greek has come since the work on the English Revised Version and the American Standard Version was done, and at many points sheds new light upon the meaning of the Greek text.
You're using the KJV to correct the KJV? So you know he gave his life, so 'soul' doesn't mean 'soul', it means 'life'. Then you say he gave his soul, which is incorrect.
He poured out his soul unto death means he suffered on the cross and he gave up his spirit as John 19:30 says, 'When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished”; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit'. RSV
So the passage doesn't say Christ gave his soul for the sins of many.
Even Isaiah refers to 'the travail of his soul' Isa. 53:11 referring to the things he had to go through.
Jesus referred to his soul.
Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” Mt. 26:38
Is Jesus saying his life is sorrowful or his body is sorrowful? No. He says his soul is sorrowful.
What's important is what Jesus said - they can not kill the soul. Jesus gave his life for our sins. His soul did not die.
So sometimes the word means life and other times it means the body and life.
You would do better seeing Gen. 2:7 in the light of Matthew 10:28 'they cannot kill the soul', RSV, rather than the other way around.
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Butch5
Member
Mark, he is his soul.
Butch5
Member
I understand that, however, that is not what the text says, it's what you're inferring from the text.
Butch5
Member
Mark, in the passages I quoted the writers used the word soul, the English translators changed it to life. That is the point I'm trying to make. When you read the text you see two different words (soul and life) which to you mean different things. However, when the Original readers read the text they saw the one word it was the same in all of those passages. Since you see two different words that to you mean different things you are not going to understand the text the way the original readers did who only saw one word. That is how translators inject their own theology. If they would simply translate, Nephesh and Psuche as soul everywhere that these words appear it would make a big difference in the was people understand the Scriptures.
I didn't say they were wrong I said they were different,
Cast down. Not cast away.
There are problems with the English translations just do a study of Hell and you'll see that.
Are you following what I'm saying? I'm not trying to correct anything. The passage plainly says He gave His soul.
12 Therefore he shall inherit many, and he shall divide the spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered to death: and he was numbered among the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and was delivered because of their iniquities. (Isa 53:12 LXE)
While I prefer the LXX over the Masoretic text I'll show you what the Masoretic text says.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (Isa 53:10 KJV)
You say the soul is that part that lives on yet this passage plainly says that Christ's soul was delivered to death.
What is His soul? It is His whole being.
What I'm trying to point out is that the way you are understanding soul is not the only what it can be understood. As I said before words can be understood differently. The problem we are having is that the way you're understand the word soul doesn't jive with the Scriptures. You're claiming that the soul can live on after the body dies and that run contrary to the creation account in Gen 2:7. Since it runs contrary to Genesis we have to find another way to understand the passage.
Mark, the passage plainly states that His soul was delivered to death.
To do so does not work. It becomes a logical contradiction. It would be like saying (Genesis account) oxygen and hydrogen when combined become water and then saying (the other way) if you have water and you remove the oxygen you still have water. No, you don't, you only have hydrogen left. In order to have water you "MUST" have both components hydrogen and oxygen. Likewise to have soul you must have the component parts, the body and the breath of life.
Butch5
Member
Mark, do you understand what I'm saying? Gen 2:7 the body and breath of life are a soul.
If I say oh my arm why are you hurting, does that mean my arm can live on after I die? Does it mean that my arm is something different from my body?
Well, I'm using the RSV so Lev. 17:10,11 reads
10 “If any man of the house of Israel or of the strangers that sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life.
Your argument is basically with the translators of the KJV. But I can read the KJV. The KJV doesn't say the soul is in the blood. In fact animals do not have a soul. Only man was made in the image of God. God has a soul. Man has a soul.
So since it is translated life you take it to mean what? I don't get it. Are you saying the English translation makes it clear? You are using life in your argument when you say it is clear that when the blood of the animal pours out the animal dies. You think it should say the soul of the flesh is in the blood. Both the RSV and the KJV disagree with you. Even your own argument turns on the English word. Of course it is the blood that makes atonement. Not the soul.
It's called an understanding. The soul can not be killed except by God. In fact Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison.
1 Peter 3:18-20Revised Standard Version (RSV)
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
