How is a biblical conflict solved?

[for_his_glory]

First cos there is only one head so there is only one church!

This I can agree with as Christ is the head of His body that are His own by the Spiritual birth/renewal of the inner man (spirit), John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9-10, and walk in obedience to His commands. I also understand the word catholic means universal, but only universal within the body of Christ, not some four walled building that has the name Roman Catholic Church attached to it's doors. Those who claim to be denominational or non-denominational God does not even recognize as it's only by the regeneration of the Spiritual birth are those who are Christ own.

All those verses you gave are good verses, but yet says nothing about the Roman Catholic Church being the true Church of Christ.

Just because you stand in the garage does not make you a car.

 

[Tenchi]

Then let’s stick with a study of the whole context of Jn 3:5 beginning in Jn 1 to Jn 4

You are doing this because the immediate context of John 3:5 clearly accords with my interpretation, not yours. Only because you want to distort Jesus' words are you having to move away from the immediate context of John 3:5 to make your interpretation of what he said to Nicodemus.

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John the Baptist's words in John 1:26 offer nothing in support of the idea that baptism was essential to salvation, to the "second birth" of which Jesus spoke to Nicodemus. In fact, a little farther along in the chapter John says:

John 1:32-33 (NASB)
32 John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'

What does "baptism in the Holy Spirit" look like? See Acts 2 when the very first born-again disciples were baptized by the Spirit into Christ. Water baptism had nothing at all to do with their spiritual baptism, which is what John prophesied would be the case:

Matthew 3:11 (NASB)
11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

See? No water baptism here, only "the Holy Spirit and fire," which is what is described in the instance in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit baptized the disciples of Jesus into him.

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

(Key verse! Actions speak louder than words: verse 22)

This is the fallacious tactic of Question Begging, Don.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

Yes, and? Where is there any "baptism is necessary to salvation" doctrine taught here? There isn't any. At all. This verse simply describes what Jesus did; but it prescribes nothing.

Notice you cannot enter the kingdom unless you are born again, by both water and the spirit

??? None of the verses you've offered communicate any such thing. Don, you are forcing your ideas into Scripture, not drawing them out of it.

There are many more verses we can get into to this truth!

Why would I want you to? So far, you've assumed what you think your proof-texts establish; none of them have actually justified your assumption, however. And, what's more, you've done nothing yet to rebut what I've put forward as an alternative reading of John 3:5. Are you so confined in your thinking that you can't hear or see beyond it? It seems so to me.

 

[jaybo]

So, are you saying we are not to read the Bible, but only allow a Priest to teach us and that anyone who is not Catholic are heretics as this is how it sounds to me unless I am not understanding you?

Jesus founded the first Christian Church (not the Roman Catholic Church) on the day of Pentecost starting with the Disciples that received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and were given the great commission to take the teachings (doctrines) of Christ out into the world teaching in all truths as the Holy Spirit working through them. Upon Peter's first sermon that day there were around 3000 that that were added to the church (body of Christ). Salvation does not come by the Priest or the Pastor or anyone else, as faith comes by hearing the word of God in what He had the Prophets and Apostles to write.

Salvation comes by the grace of God through faith that is Christ Jesus alone as only He is the way, the truth and the life and the only one who forgives our sins when we confess them to Him alone.

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 the same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 in him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

Great post! It should be read by all!

 

[for_his_glory]

Here are a few cross references for John 3:5 about what the word "water" means.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

[jaybo]

We either allow ourselves to be taught by man's doctrines, or the very doctrines of Christ for what He has already taught us.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit will teach you either one on one or by the anointing He has given to others who He equips to teach us. We need to hear what the Spirit of God is speaking to us.

1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Another great post! Thanks!

 

[jaybo]

Catholicism is an evil system, designed to fool people into believing they are saved. Of course, there are some Catholics that are saved, but, the very core of Catholicism is wicked, no better than the Pharisees of old. A modern Sanhedrin.

I basically agree with you but I think you're overstating the matter. I don't think that the core of Catholicism is wicked. I think that they have turned Christianity into a latter-day form of Old Testament Judaism: a separate priesthood, ornate buildings, vestments, and rituals, exclusion of those who don't subscribe to their rigid doctrine and their closed society, etc. One of the worst (visual) violations is their portrayal of the resurrected Christ as still hanging on the cross!
While I regard them as brothers and sisters in Christ, I feel sorry for them.

 

[donadams]

Yes, the Body of believers in Christ.

Does the church have a hierarchical nature?

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

I basically agree with you but I think you're overstating the matter. I don't think that the core of Catholicism is wicked. I think that they have turned Christianity into a latter-day form of Old Testament Judaism: a separate priesthood, ornate buildings, vestments, and rituals, exclusion of those who don't subscribe to their rigid doctrine and their closed society, etc. One of the worst (visual) violations is their portrayal of the resurrected Christ as still hanging on the cross!
While I regard them as brothers and sisters in Christ, I feel sorry for them.

See post post #76

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

Does the church have a hierarchical nature?

Yes. Christ is the head.

 

[WIP]

Does the church have a hierarchical nature?

Did Jesus set up a hierarchy when He created His Church? I don't see anything specific in Scripture to indicate that He did.

Note, when I capitalize Church I am referring the the Body of believers and not a specific denomination.

 

[Hopeful]

These few scriptures below shows that John's baptism was for repentance only as a recognition of one's sin as a desire for spiritual cleansing in anticipation of the coming of Messiah.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

You make a good case, if you keep avoiding the scripture I provided.
Your scriptures are all true, but not all encompassing.
Mark 1:4..."John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."
I will add this from John's dad, (Zacharias),...
Luke 1:76-77..."And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

 

[eddif]

Did Jesus set up a hierarchy when He created His Church? I don't see anything specific in Scripture to indicate that He did.

Note, when I capitalize Church I am referring the the Body of believers and not a specific denomination.

You are doing a good job
This may help.
1 Corinthians 12:27 kjv
27. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Prophets existed in the OT
The Apostles started out as a rag tag group of disciples. It took the day of Pentecost to change them more.
Teachers have to be empowered, and helped - through discipline at times.

Let me go to tongues.

Those speaking in tongues are encouraged to pray to interpret ( talking to God). If a son or daughter arrives in a position they are encouraged to seek the higher offices and warned they can be removed from office. (which takes us back to other offices).

If God called individuals to hold offices, and worked with them; then there is a good chance God is still the source today.
Which you said.

If a gifted person needs help, the Godhead is the source. (Which you said).

eddif

 

[donadams]

???

1 Timothy 3:15 (NASB)
15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

How in the world is this passage made to contradict the doctrine of justification by faith that the Bible very clearly describes?

And if anyone is "slicing the word of God," donadams, it's you.



Merely asserting this doesn't prove the correctness of your assertion. One can make assertions about all sorts of things: I can assert that the moon is made of green cheese, or that Joe Biden is a lizard alien, but merely saying these things are so, by no means establishes that they are. I've given from the context of John 3:5 a textually-faithful interpretation of Jesus' words that you have done nothing to confound or rebut. And until you are able to do so, not just asserting what you think but showing why my interpretation isn't supported by the text, your assertions are, well, a lot of noise.



As I explained to for_his_glory, John 3:5 doesn't say everything that can be said about spiritual regeneration. But what it does say is best understood within its immediate context, not by leaping all about the Bible, ramming unrelated verses/passages into connection with it, and in so doing totally warping what the verse is actually saying.

Cos the Bible in 1 Tim 3:-5 upholds the authority of Christ in his apostles in holy church and that church in holy apostolic council condemned the proposition of “faith alone”!
“If anyone says a man can be justified by faith alone, let him be anathema “!

Now please let’s end this warring faction and work together for a biblical understanding, not our own pet doctrines, Christ is the prince of peace, us verses them is not peace, God is not the author of confusion, I’m not against you or oppose you but give thanks for all who believe

 

[donadams]

What is so spiritual about church government? | Reformation Scotland

www.reformationscotland.org

The power or authority of church government is a spiritual power being that of Christ's government for He alone has absolute and immediate power and authority over our very spirit and conscience ruling us by the invisible influence of His Spirit and grace as He pleases. John 3:8; Romans 8:14; Galatians 2:20

The power of church government is properly, purely, merely spiritual in its rule, foundation, matter, form, subject, object, end and all as the spiritual government of the church is set up by the Holy Spirit who sets up the order of the church, 1 Corinthians 12:27-28.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Christ and his church are one!
Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32
No spiritual ears without the apostles teaching us lk 10:16
Matt 18:17 hear the church
Christ is the light of the world Jn 8:12
The apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14
Christ is the truth Jn 14:6
Church the truth 1 Tim 3:15
Christ and his church are one!

 

[donadams]

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15

 

[Tenchi]

Cos the Bible in 1 Tim 3:-5 upholds the authority of Christ in his apostles in holy church and that church in holy apostolic council condemned the proposition of “faith alone”!

I think you've made a mistake in your Scripture reference. Anyway, nothing in 1 Timothy 3 "upholds the authority of Christ in his apostles in holy church" in the way that is typical of the Roman Catholic church, which is, it seems, the way you're talking about.

Do you see Paul's remarks about a bishop being the "husband of one wife" and "ruling his own household well" and "having his children under control"? How do celibate priests do this, exactly? How do they fulfill the requirements laid out by the apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 3? And where does Paul establish an apostolic chain of authority in his remarks to Timothy in chapter 3? He didn't make Timothy an apostle, only an Elder/Bishop over the Church.

And what is the Church? Paul describes it very clearly in his various letters:

1 Corinthians 1:2 (NASB)
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 (NASB)
27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
28 And God has appointed in the church...

Ephesians 4:15-16 (NASB)
15...we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

It is in Christ, not the Roman Catholic church, that the Body of Believers, the Church, exists. All those in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells (Romans 8:9; 1 John 4:13; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, etc.) are members of the Body of Christ, the Church. And anyone can be so indwelt entirely apart from priests, cardinals and popes.

1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

that church in holy apostolic council condemned the proposition of “faith alone”!
“If anyone says a man can be justified by faith alone, let him be anathema “!

Who cares what a bunch of power-hungry priests or pontiffs decided? After the apostles appointed by Christ himself died, the apostolic office, as they occupied it, ceased. No self-appointed "apostle" (or group of them appointing one another) has any genuine spiritual authority over the life of any born-again believer. That authority is given to Elder/Bishops/Pastors who are appointed to their positions by local communities of the Church and to which communities those Elder/Bishops/Pastors are accountable.

And I still don't know what, exactly, you mean by "justified by faith alone"?

Now please let’s end this warring faction and work together for a biblical understanding, not our own pet doctrines,

??? I've not offered you "pet doctrines" but the plain truth of God's word. You've got another "truth," given to you from the Roman Catholic organization, that is at war with God's word and there's not much I can do about that but continue to show you the actual truth of things as they are in Scripture, not as the RC institution has contorted them in service to itself.

I'm not against you, either, only the false ideas about the Christian faith you've taken up from fellows in robes and fancy hats.

 

[donadams]

Yes, the Body of believers in Christ.

How do we know what we are to believe?

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

Christ and his church are one!

Is His church the Catholic church? You've said before, "the one true church." Is that the Catholic church?

 

[for_his_glory]

Christ and his church are one!
Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32
No spiritual ears without the apostles teaching us lk 10:16
Matt 18:17 hear the church
Christ is the light of the world Jn 8:12
The apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14
Christ is the truth Jn 14:6
Church the truth 1 Tim 3:15
Christ and his church are one!

hear the church, now which church would that be?

 

[jaybo]

Is His church the Catholic church? You've said before, "the one true church." Is that the Catholic church?

There is no Catholic church. It is simply a denomination, one of many.

There is one true Biblical church: the Body of Christ. The word is also used to refer to a building, or to a subset of the body, e.g., the churches mentioned in the New Testament: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum.

The Catholics like to call themselves "the one true church" but that is just a delusion. There are other broad classifications, e.g., Orthodox, Protestant, Coptic, which are just as valid. Have a look here for an extensive list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

The Catholics also like to call themselves the original church, but that is also a delusion. The first church was entirely composed of Jews and the word "Catholic" isn't mentioned in the Bible. They also claim that Peter was the first Pope, but that isn't mentioned in the Bible either. They claim that because Jesus said to Peter “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" (Matthew 16:17-18) and that he is the true founder of the church, but they don't include what Jesus also said: "Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.” Matthew 16:23 He calls no other person "Satan" and calling him "a stumbling block" is in clear contrast to "on this rock I will build my church". I believe that the rock on which Jesus will build His church is the confession: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Peter was clearly a deeply flawed person, the supposed head of a deeply-flawed denomination.