Avoidance is a good think in this case.And how can a person do that?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Bible Study How Many Judgments Are There?
- Thread starter KevinK
- Start date
KevinK
Member
I'm open to suggestions, Kathi.
TimothyW
Member
Is the question "How can one avoid being tortured alive forever in Hell"?
Is there any proof that anyone will ever be tortured alive forever in Hell?
Revelation 20:10: NIV
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".
Are not the beast and false prophet human?
Revelation 20:14: NIV
"Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death".
Are not the lake of burning sulfur and the lake of fire one and the same?
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".
Are not the beast and false prophet human?
Revelation 20:14: NIV
"Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death".
Are not the lake of burning sulfur and the lake of fire one and the same?
TimothyW
Member
I don't believe that the false prophet is an actual person. I believe that the false prophet in John of Patmos's vision refers to the false church.
As for the beast being human, well...He is a beast, not a human!
The beast in John's vision probably refers to corrupt government.
This is not very solid proof that everyone who ever sinned will be tortured alive forever in hell.
Do you have any proof that doesn't come from one man's vision?
You may be right Tim, but it must make sense.
Some kind of sense.
Does it make sense that a corrupt government will be tortured day and night forever and ever?
If not one person, then many.
KevinK
Member
Don't know. That's one of the questions I'd like answers to. (Allenwynne gave some pretty good references, thank you).
I suppose technically one could say as long as you're not going to Hell in the first place, it doesn't matter to you whether the torment is endless or not. Well, one, I'm not sure my name is in the Book of Life. Two, if anyone I know goes there, I'd just like to know what their final fate was. No reason, just nosy. Or maybe I can use the information as a deterrent.
What I'd really like to hear is that the current Hell (Sheol, a.k.a. Hades) is not permanent; that on Judgment Day, everone who is in there suffering now will (gladly) go into a bigger lake of fire (Gehenna) and be annihilated from consciousness. Satan, the Anti, demons, and sinners alike. The problem is, as "elegant" and humanistic as this notion is, I don't believe there is any kind of Scriptural support for this arrangement.
TimothyW
Member
The symbols in the Book of Revelation, including the symbols for the false church and the false government are symbolic.
In the 2000 years since John of Patmos first penned his apocalypse, no two Christians have agreed on what he meant in his vision. This is not the most solid ground to be standing on.
TimothyW
Member
According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell. Those who reject the Son of God will perish and will not have eternal life.
See Romans 6:26 and John 3:16 for a starter.
Matthew 25:41: NIV
"Then he will say to those on his left, depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
There's that word eternal again.
"Then he will say to those on his left, depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
There's that word eternal again.
Proof?The Bible.I guess if someone does not want to believe in the words of the Bible it would be to find out for themself.
TimothyW
Member
Thanks, I will accept the words of the Bible as proof.
Where in the Bible does it say that the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever while they are dead?
I see where the Bible says that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and I see where the Bible says that whoever doesn't believe will perish and will not have eternal life (John 3:16).
But I've been reading the Bible for 30 years, and I've never seen a verse that says "The lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever while they are dead".
TimothyW
Member
Yes, but does it say that the lost have eternal life in the eternal fire? I don't see that.
If something goes into fire, it burns up. This is better proof that the cursed are burnt up by fire than it is proof that they are unharmed, but tortured by the fire.
Where does it say our bodies are thrown into the fire?
I think the torment is knowing that you are in eternal darkness separated from God.
TimothyW
Member
Matthew 25:41: NIV
"Then he will say to those on his left, depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
You said it. Matthew 25:41. Is it eternal darkness or is it eternal fire? Is it eternal separation from God? How does that work, since God is omnipresent? The Bible even says that God is in hell. (Psalm 139:8)
What about all of the passages that say that the lost will be destroyed, that they will perish, and they will be consumed by the fire?
Mark 9:43; NIV
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out".
Matthew 25:46; NIV
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life".
Jude 1:13; NIV
"They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever".
James 3:6; NIV
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell".
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out".
Matthew 25:46; NIV
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life".
Jude 1:13; NIV
"They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever".
James 3:6; NIV
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell".
TimothyW
Member
Thanks. Do you think that "Enter life" could actually mean "Enter life"? I do. And this verse also says that the fire never goes out in hell. That's pretty firm evidence that the lost are burnt up in the fire when they enter hell. That is what fire does. And don't forget that Jesus said "Fear the one who is able to DESTROY both body and soul in hell". The fire never goes out, but it always consumes whoever goes into it.
Exactly. You and I agree that the lost go away to eternal punishment, but it seems that we disagree on what the punishment consists of. This verse doesn't say that the lost go away to eternal torment. It says eternal punishment. Since I believe what the Bible says, I believe that the punishment is destruction, and this punishment lasts forever, so it is eternal. Those who have been destroyed are not conscious after they have been destroyed. The righteous go to eternal life, the unrighteous do not go to eternal life.
Interesting. This verse doesn't even say that the lost are tormented alive forever.
Read the context:
But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error and perished in Korah’s rebellion. These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
This verse as well says nothing about eternal conscious torment.
I just believe what the Bible says
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world,i that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
1 John 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
th1b.taylor
Member
AW, Kathi,
With Tim you are beating your heads against the bricks. In the past I tried to get hinm to download a free copy of the e-Sword and to then, under Downloads in the Tool Bar to select and install a free copy of the Nave's and to do the study on Judgement and the one on Hell but he does not wantto be taught. He has opinions and he wants to ive by those no matter what God teaches. Sad that, but!
With Tim you are beating your heads against the bricks. In the past I tried to get hinm to download a free copy of the e-Sword and to then, under Downloads in the Tool Bar to select and install a free copy of the Nave's and to do the study on Judgement and the one on Hell but he does not wantto be taught. He has opinions and he wants to ive by those no matter what God teaches. Sad that, but!
When people go against what scripture plainly says you have to back out.It is their choice.