How many verses are required to prove a false doctrine?

[Hopeful 2]

Quit distorting what I wrote. Read it again, correct your error, then ask me anything you like. I will answer to what I did write.

I guess I just don't understand the basis of your line of thinking...sorry.

And by the way, Jesus does say anything about baptism in his address to the churches in Revelation 2-3.

I think you meant to say doesn't say...
Why would He need to ?
The second thing men are to do (after turning from sin), is baptism.
So if they are "in the church", they have already been baptized.

Again, if both are coessential to salvation, show me this.
Show me one verse in which baptism comes before repentance. One verse.

I know of several instances where baptized people shower their lack of repentance from sin...and a need to still repent.
Ananias and Sapphira, in Acts 5, and Simon of Acts 8.
But that isn't in line with your POV that repentance from sin is necessary before baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sin.
(A POV I agree with).

Exactly what doctrine do you find to be false, as per the OP ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hey All,
donadams, I have shown you that earlier that each of these verses (unless you snuck a new one in there) when read an understood in context of the passage, chapter, book, and/or whole Bible does not prove any of man's works are necessary for salvation. I am not not going through this again.

Yes, salvation is from faith through grace and faith alone, but that's part of the whole picture, there're two big ceveats:

First, although work is not necessary for salvation, it is necessary for God's blessing, including but not limited to "health and wealth". Prosperity gospel is fake because faith alone doesn't bring you prosperity, it only gives you hope and motivation to work. You can "name it" at the top of your lungs, but you ain't gonna "claim it" by doing nothing, you'll never hear this inconvenient part from Joel Osteen. God wants doers of his words, not hearers, to actually achieve prosperity, you gotta do it in God's way, you gotta put blood sweat and tears in it, you gotta walk the extra mile. God's blessings are earned through obedience, it's not a free gift like salvation, see Deut. 28:1-14.

Second, work bears witness of true salvation, in other words it proves you're saved. All saved persons are transformed inside, slowly but surely, and this progress is shown through works. If somebody is baptized, but he's still a lazy bum with a foul mouth and no sign of improvement, then he's probably not saved at all. You don't work to be saved, you work BECAUSE you're saved.

 

[Josef]

I guess I just don't understand the basis of your line of thinking...sorry.

I know of several instances where baptized people shower their lack of repentance from sin...and a need to still repent.
Ananias and Sapphira, in Acts 5, and Simon of Acts 8.
But that isn't in line with your POV that repentance from sin is necessary before baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sin.
(A POV I agree with).

Exactly what doctrine do you find to be false, as per the OP ?

Hey All,
I did make a mistake, which I went back and edited after I found it. So it should read as "doesn't" now.

Just as:
"I know of several instances where baptized people shower their lack of repentance from sin...and a need to still repent." Quote from Hopeful 2

I know you did not mean "shower."

I know of several instances where baptized people shower their lack of repentance from sin...and a need to still repent.
Ananias and Sapphira, in Acts 5, and Simon of Acts 8. Quote from Hopeful 2

Ananias and Sapphira - We are not told that they were baptized. You are making an assumption. I could counter your argument by saying they were not baptized. That is an assumption as well, and equally not proveable. Stalemate.
How ever, I actually counter with the truth as we do know it; that your position is unproven. I win the point, and you cannot prove yours to be true. Your argument is weakened.

Simon - Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

"Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, . . . "

Simon believed first, then was baptized. It is right there in the verse. You have weakened your argument so badly. I could accuse you of not reading the verse before trying to make it say the opposite of what it actually says. Based on Acts 8:13, you cannot prove me wrong.
This alone, in a debate, derails your whole argument.

"Exactly what doctrine do you find to be false, as per the OP ?" Quote from Hopeful 2

You argue that repentance is not enough for salvation (Ananias, Sapphira, and Simon) and now you don't know what you are arguing about? Go back and read the OP.

You know the truth hopeful 2. Your last question proves you know the truth.

The truth is you don't know what you are arguing about. To not know, but argue like you do know, is a lie. So much for sinless perfection.

I know I am being harsh with you. But you left me no choice. The debate is over.

Now I want to help you get back up. I don't leave a man down. ( Or a woman if that is the case.) Get up, let's put your armor back on, and you walk with me for a spell. Let's walk into glory together.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[donadams]

I am not going over this again and again.
Here is my challenge to you Mr. Adams.
Since both are necessary, according to you, the order they are expressed is irrelevant. For example if I rearranged the Ten Commandments, the rearrangement would not diminish the importance of each as a part of the whole.

That said, whether the Bible shows the order as repent then baptism, or baptism then repent, if they are equally necessary, the order should not matter.

Show me one verse in which baptism comes before repentance. One verse.

Also, why is baptism completely left out some calls to repentance? Look at the churches in Revelation 2-3. The church of Ephesus for example, is told to ". . . repent and do the first works . . . " Repent is separate from works.

Baptism is a work of obedience after repentance. Ideally one should know and understand why they are doing it. Then baptism has meaning to them. That can take time. In your ideology, a person that would do this is not saved.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Baptism the sacraments the church are irrelevant and meaningless let’s just decide on own authority to dismiss them!

 

[Corinth77777]

Quit distorting what I wrote. Read it again, correct your error, then ask me anything you like. I will answer to what I did write.

And by the way, Jesus doesn't say anything about baptism in his address to the churches in Revelation 2-3. If they were baptized (the first works) without repentance, Jesus is saying it did not count. He tells the church of Ephesus to do the first works. One of the first works is baptism. Only when they truly repent does the baptism mean what it is supposed to mean. Repentance gives baptism meaning.

Again, if both are equally essential to salvation, show me this.
Show me one verse in which baptism comes before repentance. One verse.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Yes sometimes if you find people don't come with the right attitude that you might just have to step away. Because you are making a good point.

One must come with the right attitude of a repented heart.
Recall this passage where John the Baptist tells people to bring forth fruit of repentance before He would even baptize them.
I
Bring for fruit of repentance that you have accepted His teachings- maybe by confessing their sins?

The water then is a way to identify the the word is the cleansing agent. That is why those who obeyed the words of Moses. Were baptized "delivered" into or by Moses. Under the authority, the community of God, Father, son, HolyGost
(MY THOUGHTS THAT CAME TO ME, WHICH MAY NOT BE MY THOUGHTS AT ALL) TEST THE spirit by the Spirit.

Sanctify them with the truth thy word is truth


Eph 5
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

Hebrews 10
19Therefore, brethren, having boldness[f] to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

And if we want to have a clear understanding go back to the symbols under the law that pointed to Jesus to understand this which I will hopefully later share.

 

[Corinth77777]

Baptism the sacraments the church are irrelevant and meaningless let’s just decide on own authority to dismiss them!

That's not true
You just intepret through your box. That's usually why you come to the wrong understanding.

You must repent, and come to believe who Jesus is and choose to follow Him.......

2 Timothy

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

And if you believe this, then pray and ask God to open up your heart.
Otherwise you may not be ready...

Let me add Good works come from a purified heart.
Thats why he tells the pharasees first make the inside of the cup clean...
Matthew 23
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also

 

[Corinth77777]

Where does it say you can read and make your own doctrine or faith?

Isn't that just what many Roman Catholics Heads have done which you are under. Thats why you need to be under the authorty of God and not man.

What He is saying is you can read for yourself. Or do you need your box to interpret 2 Peter 2
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
It doesn't say study to show yourself aproved before men, whom are a head of your church. BUT TO GOD who is the head of the church; Jesus the Risen

Christ established the church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! Matt 28:19

If so, then by men who have receiced the Spirit. Not those who are lifeless.

Matthew 22
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.


What may that look like above? outward ritual that do not have any meaning to the one that does them. Doing things outwardly but inwardly still dead.

Christians must be taught!

Lk 1:4
Matt 28:19
Lk 10:16
Jn 20:21
Acts 8:31
Titus 1:9
Titus 2:12
Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught…

 

[Corinth77777]

Yes, salvation is from faith through grace and faith alone, but that's part of the whole picture, there're two big ceveats:

Whose faith alone?

First, although work is not necessary for salvation,

Somewhat true
Salvation means deliverence but the one who saves is our deliverer
now if we are talking about being born again then you may be right.
but to continually being saved from present circumstances in this life one must remain in God's love, His teachings.
So having received His spirit, these are works that are in alignment with our faith.

Because we are given His Spirit to defeat the habbitual nature of sin that still is in our members.

so obedience is a work, but its not a work by which we merrit or earn anything; Because our faith, God's spirit, was a Gift to start with. Which means there is nothing we do without Him.

it is necessary for God's blessing, including but not limited to "health and wealth". Prosperity gospel is fake because faith alone doesn't bring you prosperity, it only gives you hope and motivation to work. You can "name it" at the top of your lungs, but you ain't gonna "claim it" by doing nothing, you'll never hear this inconvenient part from Joel Osteen. God wants doers of his words, not hearers, to actually achieve prosperity, you gotta do it in God's way, you gotta put blood sweat and tears in it, you gotta walk the extra mile. God's blessings are earned through obedience, it's not a free gift like salvation, see Deut. 28:1-14.

Second, work bears witness of true salvation,

true based on these scriptures:
1.make elect and call sure
2.work out your salvation
3. and I write these things so that you may know you have life.

in other words it proves you're saved. All saved persons are transformed inside, slowly but surely, and this progress is shown through works.

BY WORK YOU MEAN " OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH" REMAINING IN CHRIST?

If somebody is baptized, but he's still a lazy bum with a foul mouth and no sign of improvement, then he's probably not saved at all.

True. Because salvation is not just " being forgiven of sin and having heaven when you die" but everyday life we receive from God beinng caught up in what He is doing on earth.

You don't work to be saved, you work BECAUSE you're saved.

Yes, we do work because we have received His Spirit...been born from above with life.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
I did make a mistake, which I went back and edited after I found it. So it should read as "doesn't" now.

Just as:
"I know of several instances where baptized people shower their lack of repentance from sin...and a need to still repent." Quote from Hopeful 2
I know you did not mean "shower."

I know of several instances where baptized people shower their lack of repentance from sin...and a need to still repent.
Ananias and Sapphira, in Acts 5, and Simon of Acts 8. Quote from Hopeful 2
Ananias and Sapphira - We are not told that they were baptized. You are making an assumption.

Yes I am, based on the fact that they were included in Acts 4:32's "multitude of them that believed", doing as the multitude of believers did.
That and the fact that Peter knew him/them by name leads me to my conclusion.

I could counter your argument by saying they were not baptized. That is an assumption as well, and equally not proveable. Stalemate.
How ever, I actually counter with the truth as we do know it; that your position is unproven. I win the point, and you cannot prove yours to be true. Your argument is weakened.

If what I use as evidence can't convince you, I have no further evidence.
Then again, their sin shows that they had not repented of sin...because they were still committing sin !

Simon - Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
"Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, . . . "

Simon believed first, then was baptized. It is right there in the verse. You have weakened your argument so badly. I could accuse you of not reading the verse before trying to make it say the opposite of what it actually says. Based on Acts 8:13, you cannot prove me wrong.
This alone, in a debate, derails your whole argument.

If he was a believer, Peter wouldn't of had to read him the riot act.
Belief bears good fruit.
He may have been a believer, at first, but his acts betrayed him as a covetous man who was still walking in the flesh.

Exactly what doctrine do you find to be false, as per the OP ?" Quote from Hopeful 2
You argue that repentance is not enough for salvation (Ananias, Sapphira, and Simon) and now you don't know what you are arguing about? Go back and read the OP.

Wow.
I don't know how we got here, but I want to go back.
Real repentance from sin is the start of life without sin.
The sin of A, S, and S, shows they had yet to actually repent of sin.
Repentance alone, without water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sin, cannot last.
Water baptism without repentance from sin is just a bath.

You know the truth hopeful 2. Your last question proves you know the truth.
The truth is you don't know what you are arguing about. To not know, but argue like you do know, is a lie. So much for sinless perfection.

It seems like we are arguing about two different things.
I have told no lies.

I know I am being harsh with you. But you left me no choice. The debate is over
Now I want to help you get back up. I don't leave a man down. ( Or a woman if that is the case.) Get up, let's put your armor back on, and you walk with me for a spell. Let's walk into glory together.

See ya around.

 

[donadams]

That's not true
You just intepret through your box. That's usually why you come to the wrong understanding.

You must repent, and come to believe who Jesus is and choose to follow Him.......

2 Timothy

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

And if you believe this, then pray and ask God to open up your heart.
Otherwise you may not be ready...

Let me add Good works come from a purified heart.
Thats why he tells the pharasees first make the inside of the cup clean...
Matthew 23
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also

Purified by the grace of God received in baptism

 

[donadams]

Where does say it’s only a public confession or faith or an obedience?

 

[donadams]

Isn't that just what many Roman Catholics Heads have done which you are under. Thats why you need to be under the authorty of God and not man.

What He is saying is you can read for yourself. Or do you need your box to interpret 2 Peter 2
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
It doesn't say study to show yourself aproved before men, whom are a head of your church. BUT TO GOD who is the head of the church; Jesus the Risen


If so, then by men who have receiced the Spirit. Not those who are lifeless.

Matthew 22
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.


What may that look like above? outward ritual that do not have any meaning to the one that does them. Doing things outwardly but inwardly still dead.

The “workman” is an apostle not you or me!

Not man made but God revealed

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13) one faith (eph 4:5) the faith delivered to the apostles (Jude 1:3)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

BY WORK YOU MEAN " OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH" REMAINING IN CHRIST?

Nope, I mean any work that multiplies our talents and brings glory to God. Mankind has one job, described in Gen. 1:28. Also, it’s about bearing spiritual fruits, bring humble and kind, developing a closer relationship with God through Christ.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

“Faith alone”!

How many verses are required to prove a false doctrine?

Two or three witnesses. Paul even alludes to his epistles to the Corinthian congregation of teaching them twice before about professing to be a follower of Jesus and openly living an immoral life,

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. I told you before and foretell you as if I were present the second time and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned and to all other, that if I come again I will not spare:
2Cor.13:1-2 KJV

In 1Corinthians, Paul was shocked by a report of condoned adultery within the congregation. It's funny how when you read what Paul said to them about it, he sounds very angry., like a man scolding a bad child. But Paul said,

For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. 2Cor.2:4 KJV

Paul was grieved because Gods' people are called away from adultery, so Paul told the elders of Corinth if that sin wasn't repented of then excommunicate the unrepentant. He said this with sadness in hopes of restoring the sinner to fellowship and it did,


Now I rejoice not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2Cor.7:9 KJV

So when Paul says two or three witnesses, he's citing what Moses' law says is necessary to have someone put to death.

So what is Paul saying? He's saying tell new congrgation members what God expects of them, because Paul didn't want to ever testify of their unfaithfulness again.

being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned and to all other, that if I come again I will not spare:

A living sinner can be restored to the Church, but their is no forgivness for unrepentance,

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 1Jn.5:16 KJV

 

[Corinth77777]

The “workman” is an apostle not you or me!

Not man made but God revealed

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13) one faith (eph 4:5) the faith delivered to the apostles (Jude 1:3)

Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true

They were called Noble, they weren't condemn for examining the scriptures to see if what Paul said was true.

According to the evidence in scripture on this site TIMOTHY was not an apostle.

And who says your people are apostles? ? ? YOUR MISS UNDERSTANDING OF ONE PASSAGE- ABOUT THE ROCK...

Were Others, Apart from the Twelve, Called Apostles? by Don Stewart

Don Stewart :: Were Others, Apart from the Twelve, Called Apostles?

www.blueletterbible.org

""Today, we do not need people, such as apostles, to lead us. We find that even they failed. This is illustrated with the failing of Peter at Antioch. Paul wrote.

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood self-condemned (Galatians 2:11 NRSV).

As Peter himself stated, what we need to today is the certain prophetic Word – that will never let us down. We read.

So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed. You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts (2 Peter 1:19 NRSV).

Believers need to read and obey what God has already revealed – they do not need to listen to fallible human beings to get their direction.

Thus, there are obvious contrasts between the present age and the age of the apostles. While the gospel has not changed, God’s methods have changed. Consequently, the office of apostle is no longer with us.

Colossians 3
Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. ""

Were Others, Apart from the Twelve, Called Apostles? by Don Stewart

Don Stewart :: Were Others, Apart from the Twelve, Called Apostles?

www.blueletterbible.org

Purified by the grace of God received in baptism

Identification with Christ shows one is baptized
But how can you Identify with Christ when He obeyed God.
And we who believe do the will (obey) of God who believe on His son.

But you believe as from your statement above that only the apostles have the right to interpret scripture. Well even Peter was corrected. AND I BET YOU ANYTHING THOSE BREANS WOULD HAVE REJECTED PAUL IF HE WAS NOT SPEAKING TRUTH found in the word.

You're showing that you obey men rather than God. And Sorry the church is not built off people you call apostles in your church. Those apostle in the early church already layed the foundation.

Anyway as said before you are not ready to receive the truth.
So no point in discussing when we can't agree to go to the word as the final authority. And when I take you to a passage
You interpret through your box..

Even the Spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets.


32The spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace—as in all the churches of the...

Well I must dust off my pants...and leave you to your own beliefs. Peace

 

[Corinth77777]

Where does say it’s only a public confession or faith or an obedience?

I gave, an interpretation of confess with mouth and believe with the heart passage. AND I DONT TAKE ON THE VIEW YOU THINK MOST OF US DO.

But honestly none of this MATTERS BECAUSE YOU ARE TRYING TO ARGUE FROM THE MEAT WHEN YOU HAVE NEVER GOTTON THE MILK.

FOR CAN'T SAY FROM SCRIPTURE THAT YOU HAVE BELIEVED IN YOUR HEART JESUS IS THE CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD - THE EFFECT THERE CAN BE SHOWN AS YOU CALLING UPON HIM IN BAPTISM- HOWEVER YOU SEEM TO WORSHIP (call on) MEN RATHER THAN GOD.

REPENT THEREFORE AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.

Like I said before dusting off my pants. And will not be back to argue with you anymore...Peace

 

[Corinth77777]

in other words it proves you're saved. All saved persons are transformed inside, slowly but surely, and this progress is shown through works.

BY WORK YOU MEAN " OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH" REMAINING IN CHRIST?

Nope, I mean any work that multiplies our talents and brings glory to God. Mankind has one job, described in Gen. 1:28. Also, it’s about bearing spiritual fruits, bring humble and kind, developing a closer relationship with God through Christ.

And so you are saying you don't have to remain in Christ for this? Or be obedient to the faith, belief in God?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And so you are saying you don't have to remain in Christ for this? Or be obedient to the faith, belief in God?

Nobody can have any of these without remaining in Christ, the devil will lur you away.

 

[Corinth77777]

in other words it proves you're saved. All saved persons are transformed inside, slowly but surely, and this progress is shown through works.

BY WORK YOU MEAN " OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH" REMAINING IN CHRIST?

Nope, I mean any work that multiplies our talents and brings glory to God. Mankind has one job, described in Gen. 1:28. Also, it’s about bearing spiritual fruits, bring humble and kind, developing a closer relationship with God through Christ.

And so you are saying you don't have to remain in Christ for this? Or be obedient to the faith, belief in God?

Nobody can have any of these without remaining in Christ, the devil will lur you away.

@ REMAINING IN Christ.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

BY WORK YOU MEAN " OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH" REMAINING IN CHRIST?

And so you are saying you don't have to remain in Christ for this? Or be obedient to the faith, belief in God?


@ REMAINING IN Christ.

Yep. Gotta keep the oil replenished and the fire burning.