How was the Thief on the Cross Saved?

[francisdesales]

Those who are "saved" are those who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ who died on the cross to shed His blood for the sins of the world.

What does that mean "place their faith in..."?

Is that an intellectual only belief? Believing that historically, a man named Jesus died and rose from the dead, etc? Or is it something drastically more?

Salvation is not of man, it is by the Grace of God.

I don't think ANYONE here has said otherwise.

Jesus paid it ALL. Salvation is offered to ALL of mankind, some will receive it, but unfortunately some will not.

Agree.

No man will spend eternity in Hell because of his sins, but because he has rejected God's plan of forgiveness and Salvation...

I am not willing to agree to that, since all people were not made aware of God's plan of salvation and forgiveness.

We ALL have free will, as did Adam and Eve. And they choose to sin. We have a choice to receive God's gift or reject it.

What is God's gift here that you speak of? And didn't you previously state that man doesn't spend time in hell because of sin? How does this make sense of what you now state in "they choose to sin"?

We cannot earn (through our own works) God's forgiveness and Salvation. Our good works are created by the Holy Spirit within us.

I agree that no one can earn God's forgiveness. It is already offered to all, even while we are still in sin. Our faith AND good works are both a result of the gifts of God's Spirit. Neither can exist without His Spirit working in us, moving our will and desire to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling".

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

So according to Ephesians, we are saved by grace--through the placement of our faith--and not by our own works---for it is a gift of God. What is the gift of God in this verse---The answer is, GRACE...

Grace is a gift that provides for BOTH faith and good works...

Faith is not something given to us that automatically produces works while God sits aside watching. Faith is just as much a gift of God as our works of love. What is God moving within us? Our will and desires. What we assent to intellectually. How we act towards others. Faith and works are entirely related and moved by the SAME Holy Spirit.

Faith is a not cause of works by itself. It is was, there would be no need to exhort Christians throughout practically every book of the NT to perservere and continue in loving their neighbor. They would be on "auto-pilot"...

Regards

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grace is a gift that provides for BOTH faith and good works...

Faith is not something given to us that automatically produces works while God sits aside watching. Faith is just as much a gift of God as our works of love. What is God moving within us? Our will and desires. What we assent to intellectually. How we act towards others. Faith and works are entirely related and moved by the SAME Holy Spirit.

Faith is a not cause of works by itself. It is was, there would be no need to exhort Christians throughout practically every book of the NT to perservere and continue in loving their neighbor. They would be on "auto-pilot"...

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Faith is something that God has created within EVERY man. Man in turn, chooses (by free will, also bestowed upon every man) to place his faith in whatever he chooses. That choice may be, Hinduism, Atheism, and any other, of many beliefs and philosophies. Yes, God has given us the ability to place our FAITH in His Salvation plan. And remember that, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;573930

Faith is something that God has created within EVERY man. Man in turn, chooses (by free will, also bestowed upon every man) to place his faith in whatever he chooses. That choice may be, Hinduism, Atheism, and any other, of many beliefs and philosophies. Yes, God has given us the ability to place our FAITH in His Salvation plan. And remember that, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...

I take issue with your reasoning in this statement. Respectfully, what a person believes to be true governs the will so a man cannot put his faith into whatever he chooses anymore than man can create God. He cannot decide to believe he can eat dirt and live for instance. There is knowledge and ignorance so there is Truth. Men do not have freewills to ignore the Truth and deem such ignorance freedom. Hence Francisdesales is correct in saying that Love is the cause and purpose of faith otherwise it is in reality unfaith.

 

[stovebolts]

The fruits of the Spirit do not save us. They are the result of our spiritual growth. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is what saves us.

Hello Patience,

The hard part about forums sometimes, is that often, what is said can be taken out of context. Please know that my comment regarding "fruits" was in reply to this.

BY YOUR FRUIT I KNOW YOU!!!

You have clearly taught that you DO NOT BELIEVE a dying man in his death bed who turns to Christ by faith for salvation can be saved! This proves you are a false teacher of a false gospel and you deny salvation by faith and grace alone!

This is a gross misrepresentation of my belief. (And a gross violation of the TOS to which one, without grace, would have suspended said user for)

But I degress, did I say that the fruits of the Spirit save us? This argument seems all too pedantic, and high brow for me

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I believe that the Holy Spirit guides us, and through the Spirit, we are able to 'work out our salvation". We can't do it alone, we need God's guidance and Spirit living within us. The fruits of the Spirit are not simply markers for a godly life that can be tallied up as the result of a Godly life, they are also expressions of a Godly life. It's what we can enjoy as Christians who walk in the light, the way God created us to live. We can experience these fruits to where we have life more abundantly, because we've got Jesus as our guide.

 

[francisdesales]

Faith is something that God has created within EVERY man. Man in turn, chooses (by free will, also bestowed upon every man) to place his faith in whatever he chooses.

I am not so sure that this so neatly explains the synergy involved in how we come to believe in something. Certainly, we have the ability to come to rationale conclusions on Who the Divine is and ascertain (correctly or incorrectly) His Attributes. When you say "faith is created in every man", I would qualify that, since all men are not given access to the Christian faith - perhaps only at a "pre-Christian" level at best - such as the universal desire of beauty and goodness or the experience of the "golden rule". These are preparatory for the Christian faith as we know it. But to state that all men are given faith, meaning Christian faith in God, I think that might go a bit too far.

That choice may be, Hinduism, Atheism, and any other, of many beliefs and philosophies. Yes, God has given us the ability to place our FAITH in His Salvation plan. And remember that, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...

Everyone does not hear the Salvation Plan, which was my point. Would you agree that the people of the New World were totally unaware of Jesus of Nazareth before the Spaniards landed in the 15th century? In addition, it is quite feasible that the Message is blocked out by externals that prevent the Gospel from reaching someone. We cannot blame this entirely on the person, when he hears a truncated or false message.

Regards

 

[WIP]

NOTE an important issue. The thief did NOT produce any good works, yet he was saved! His last works were THEFT, yet Jesus still promised him Paradise. So we have to conclude..that salvation is based on FAITH ALONE, NOT WORKS!

Is it possible his last works was evangelism?

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:39-43 KJV

 

[francisdesales]

Hence Francisdesales is correct in saying that Love is the cause and purpose of faith otherwise it is in reality unfaith.

That's a very good twist to the "faith must come first before love" statements by naming God "Love"! A good point.

Regards

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I take issue with your reasoning in this statement. Respectfully, what a person believes to be true governs the will so a man cannot put his faith into whatever he chooses anymore than man can create God. He cannot decide to believe he can eat dirt and live for instance. There is knowledge and ignorance so there is Truth. Men do not have freewills to ignore the Truth and deem such ignorance freedom. Hence Francisdesales is correct in saying that Love is the cause and purpose of faith otherwise it is in reality unfaith.

I respectfully disagree. A person places their faith in all kinds of situations. For instance, you put your faith in your Doctor that, he/she will know how to treat an illness you have contracted. Another example would be, trusting a particular person to babysit your child or putting your faith in someone who does your taxes. There are any number of things we put are faith in during the course of even a single day. By putting our faith in Christ, we are trusting in His Atonement on the cross, the shedding of His blood to cover our sins (pay the price for) We're also trusting (faith) God's Grace towards us (who believe) and entrusting our eternal destination in Him.

Being "Born again" is a Spiritual process by which we are, indwelt/sealed by the Holy Spirit and placed into a"Spiritual new birth." In other words, we are born physically by way of our Mother's womb, in order to enter the presence of God (in Heaven) we must be, "Born again Spiritually." This process is engineered through the work of the Holy Spirit."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I am not so sure that this so neatly explains the synergy involved in how we come to believe in something. Certainly, we have the ability to come to rationale conclusions on Who the Divine is and ascertain (correctly or incorrectly) His Attributes. When you say "faith is created in every man", I would qualify that, since all men are not given access to the Christian faith - perhaps only at a "pre-Christian" level at best - such as the universal desire of beauty and goodness or the experience of the "golden rule". These are preparatory for the Christian faith as we know it. But to state that all men are given faith, meaning Christian faith in God, I think that might go a bit too far.



Everyone does not hear the Salvation Plan, which was my point. Would you agree that the people of the New World were totally unaware of Jesus of Nazareth before the Spaniards landed in the 15th century? In addition, it is quite feasible that the Message is blocked out by externals that prevent the Gospel from reaching someone. We cannot blame this entirely on the person, when he hears a truncated or false message.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What I mean is, that God has created man with the free will ability to choose what he (man) shall believe in. All men choose to believe in something, even if he chooses to believe in atheism. God created ALL of us that way. (the ability to choose)

Your correct when you say, that some people in the world don't hear about the Bible and God's Grace. In those cases I can only speculate on how God will deal with those folks. I don't believe we can assume one way or the other and come up with the truth. That will have to be left up to the mercy of God...

 

[francisdesales]

What I mean is, that God has created man with the free will ability to choose what he (man) shall believe in. All men choose to believe in something, even if he chooses to believe in atheism. God created ALL of us that way. (the ability to choose)

Your correct when you say, that some people in the world don't hear about the Bible and God's Grace. In those cases I can only speculate on how God will deal with those folks. I don't believe we can assume one way or the other and come up with the truth. That will have to be left up to the mercy of God...

I think we are on the same wave length here... ;)

Regards

 

[patience7]

Hello Patience,

The hard part about forums sometimes, is that often, what is said can be taken out of context. Please know that my comment regarding "fruits" was in reply to this.

Hello - My response about the fruit of the Spirit was in response to the following post which was in reply to mine - It sure seems like it was to me but if I am mistaken, I apologize.

Originally Posted by patience7
The one thief condemned - And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

There is his faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I would place what you have stated above, more in line with confession and pronouncing what is true through repentance. What this man did, was good, not evil and as such, spoke the truth boldly, but also in humility.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

The above sounds more like hope.

Patience,
My point was more about discernment as our fruits are known by not only what we say, but what we do. It would be easy to compare and contrast both thieves against Galatians 5 to see where their fruits originated from.

Honestly, I fear that we are becoming a society filled with dogma where doctrines are outweighing the totality of Scripture and we are loosing our ability to discern.

Hebrews 5:14 (NIV) But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

 

[childeye]

I respectfully disagree. A person places their faith in all kinds of situations. For instance, you put your faith in your Doctor that, he/she will know how to treat an illness you have contracted. Another example would be, trusting a particular person to babysit your child or putting your faith in someone who does your taxes. There are any number of things we put are faith in during the course of even a single day. By putting our faith in Christ, we are trusting in His Atonement on the cross, the shedding of His blood to cover our sins (pay the price for) We're also trusting (faith) God's Grace towards us (who believe) and entrusting our eternal destination in Him.

Being "Born again" is a Spiritual process by which we are, indwelt/sealed by the Holy Spirit and placed into a"Spiritual new birth." In other words, we are born physically by way of our Mother's womb, in order to enter the presence of God (in Heaven) we must be, "Born again Spiritually." This process is engineered through the work of the Holy Spirit."

Yes I understand what you mean and also understand why you disagree. We must put our faith in something is what you are saying I don't disagree with that. You said we choose freely however what we trust in. This is an amoral view of faith. For God being an absolute Truth we are come to the point that defines the terms so that any belief that distrusts the absolute Truth is properly termed unbelief. Please excuse the semantics as do I. Moreover, the decision of what we put our faith in is first premised upon knowledge and ignorance of that Truth and so is subject or limited accordingly. There also is the flesh which has it's own will that hinders our service to God apart from mans volition for it to be so.

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;573972



What I mean is, that God has created man with the free will ability to choose what he (man) shall believe in. All men choose to believe in something, even if he chooses to believe in atheism. God created ALL of us that way. (the ability to choose)

Here is where we have some disconnect. You state God gave us a freewill to distrust Him, when it seems to me a false image of God was sown into mankind through subtlty not volition and hence God has sent His son the True image to remedy that. For scripture says we traded in the Holy Image of God for a corrupt image. We became vain in our imaginations and so I take issue that God has been diminished to a prerogative of man's discretion as Satan has taught the same from the beginning. So where did God ever give man the choice to disobey Him and live? Certainly Satan said we could do so, but he is a liar.

So there are those who believe in the Christ as the son of God and this is preceded in the believer by the Word of God in his heart that recognizes the Truth come in the flesh and without this Love of God in ones heart no one can choose to believe in the Christ.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Here are some questions to ponder:

Where does the Bible say the thief was saved from anything?
If the thief was in fact saved, what was he saved from?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes I understand what you mean and also understand why you disagree. We must put our faith in something is what you are saying I don't disagree with that. You said we choose freely however what we trust in. This is an amoral view of faith. For God being an absolute Truth we are come to the point that defines the terms so that any belief that distrusts the absolute Truth is properly termed unbelief. Please excuse the semantics as do I. Moreover, the decision of what we put our faith in is first premised upon knowledge and ignorance of that Truth and so is subject or limited accordingly. There also is the flesh which has it's own will that hinders our service to God apart from mans volition for it to be so.

Yes indeed. Any philosophy, doctrine, hypothesis, church affiliation, etc., that contradicts the Word of God (Bible) would be considered,"unbelief in the truth," due to the fact that, there is only ONE true belief, all others are not of the truth. If you do not except truth, then you WILL except a lie. That's the way we humans roll...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I think we are on the same wave length here... ;)

Regards

Great we have a point of agreement. That's a good thing...

 

[childeye]

Yes indeed. Any philosophy, doctrine, hypothesis, church affiliation, etc., that contradicts the Word of God (Bible) would be considered,"unbelief in the truth," due to the fact that, there is only ONE true belief, all others are not of the truth. If you do not except truth, then you WILL except a lie. That's the way we humans roll...

So would one who is deceived into believing he has a freewill to deny God and live, under a lie?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

So would one who is deceived into believing he has a freewill to deny God and live, under a lie?

Could you rephrase the question, I didn't quite get it???

 

[childeye]

Could you rephrase the question, I didn't quite get it???

If one believes he can deny God and live and counts this a "freewill", are they under a lie?