How will the world explain the rapture?

[Alabaster]

So the Church is not God's elect then?

and they shall gather together his elect

Thats the 'rapture'. And it comes Immediately after the tribulation

Yes, the Church is the elect of God. So is Israel. When Jesus comes, there will be many who have accepted Christ during the Tribulation who will have survived, but they will be few.

This event comes immediately after the Tribulation, as the text reveals quite plainly.

 

[Strangelove]

Yes, the Church is the elect of God. So is Israel. When Jesus comes, there will be many who have accepted Christ during the Tribulation who will have survived, but they will be few.

This event comes immediately after the Tribulation, as the text reveals quite plainly.

So lemme get this straight.

In you're theology you have:

1) 2 active covenants (unbiblical)
2) 2 sets of saints (unbiblical)
3) 2 seperate raptures of the elect (unbiblical)

Whats next? 2 gods?

 

[Sissy]

The rapture of the faithful (saints) is the gathering together of the dead faithful & living faithful.

1 Thessalonians 4
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together (the gathering / harvest) with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
​

The subject of the above is the concern of whether the faithful who have died (sleep) are included in the rapture (gathering / harvest).
The faithful dead will be gathered WITH the faithful living.

1 Corinthians 15
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Matthew 24
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
​

To determine when this event happens, all one has to do is determine when God will raise the faithful dead incorruptible, for that is the time the faithful living will be gathered with them.


There are already several clues in the above passages. But there are several specific passages that say when the faithful dead are raised incorruptible --- the last day.

John 6
(39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
(40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6
(44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6
(54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11
(24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
​

Now, there is only one raising / gathering / harvest of the faithful --- the last day.
So, is the last day before or after the tribulation?

 

[farouk]

In my understanding the rapture of the church (which is distinct from Israel) as seen in 1 Thess. 4, etc., does not have to wait until other prophetic events have to occur.

The point is surely to be ready for it, through faith in Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

So lemme get this straight.

In you're theology you have:

1) 2 active covenants (unbiblical)
2) 2 sets of saints (unbiblical)
3) 2 seperate raptures of the elect (unbiblical)

Whats next? 2 gods?

sl what does this verse mean to you.john 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

if the lord is only reaching the gentiles and jews together, why then did he say this?

he is gathering both the jews and the gentiles. but the jews then would find that offensive that if you look at hoshea and the idea that God is calling the gentiles now to provoke the jew jeaslously so that he will repent. that idea of alabaster makes perfect sense

you really need to understand what the ot says fully before you can grasp revalation fully.

the idea of that tree that paul speaks about is the faith that abraham had and that the gentiles are grafted in and nowhere does paul say that the gentiles replace isreal, only that they are grafted into the seed of abraham.

both the jew and the gentile must believe on the lord to be saved.

 

[watchman F]

In my understanding the rapture of the church (which is distinct from Israel) as seen in 1 Thess. 4, etc., does not have to wait until other prophetic events have to occur.

The point is surely to be ready for it, through faith in Christ.

The event you call the rapture from 1st Thessalonians 4 occurs at the coming of Christ which is per Matthew 24, Mark 13 and more is after the Tribulation, not before it.

 

[watchman F]

So lemme get this straight.

In you're theology you have:

1) 2 active covenants (unbiblical)
2) 2 sets of saints (unbiblical)
3) 2 seperate raptures of the elect (unbiblical)

Whats next? 2 gods?

Yes you are right Strangelove the pretrib doctrine is indeed unbiblical.

 

[watchman F]

That is the second coming, which comes with many signs beforehand. Everyone shall see Him then (note: no one is rejoicing, only mourning).

The rapture takes place at the 2nd coming per 1st Thess 4:15-17

It is not the rapture of the Church, which takes place in a twinkling of an eye, previously.

The ''rapture'' that takes place in a twinkling of an eye takes place at the last trump, not before the Tribulation, per the verse you partially quote 1st Corinthians 15:51-53

 

[Strangelove]

sl what does this verse mean to you.john 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

if the lord is only reaching the gentiles and jews together, why then did he say this?

he is gathering both the jews and the gentiles. but the jews then would find that offensive that if you look at hoshea and the idea that God is calling the gentiles now to provoke the jew jeaslously so that he will repent. that idea of alabaster makes perfect sense

you really need to understand what the ot says fully before you can grasp revalation fully.

the idea of that tree that paul speaks about is the faith that abraham had and that the gentiles are grafted in and nowhere does paul say that the gentiles replace isreal, only that they are grafted into the seed of abraham.

both the jew and the gentile must believe on the lord to be saved.

So you're just supporting my point with all that.

There is:

1) 1 active covenant (faith in Christ)
2) 1 group of saints (those who believe)
3) 1 gathering at the last day.

So why still this fixation with seperating the Jews and Gentiles? There is no flesh where spiritual matters are concerned.

 

[Strangelove]

That is the second coming, which comes with many signs beforehand. Everyone shall see Him then (note: no one is rejoicing, only mourning).

It is not the rapture of the Church, which takes place in a twinkling of an eye, previously.

Are you saying the 'rapture' of the church happens before Jesus comes?

 

[Alabaster]

So lemme get this straight.

In you're theology you have:

1) 2 active covenants (unbiblical)
2) 2 sets of saints (unbiblical)
3) 2 seperate raptures of the elect (unbiblical)

Whats next? 2 gods?

No, you don't have it straight....there is one covenant, the blood covenant of Jesus Christ. All who receive the Messiah, Jesus Christ are known as saints. Only one catching away of the Church will occur.

 

[Alabaster]

Are you saying the 'rapture' of the church happens before Jesus comes?

Of course.

 

[Strangelove]

No, you don't have it straight....there is one covenant, the blood covenant of Jesus Christ. All who receive the Messiah, Jesus Christ are known as saints. Only one catching away of the Church will occur.

But you say there will be 2 seperate raptures of the elect. One before the trib (the Church) and one after the trib (Matt 24: 29-31).

Correct?

 

[Strangelove]

Of course.

Ok so show me you're pre-trib rapture event in scripture and let's see if Christ is no-where to be seen.

 

[farouk]

Seems that in the New Testament the coming of the Lord Jesus for the church (referred to as the Rapture, often, because the church will be 'caught up' to be with Him) and the coming of the Lord Jesus in power and glory with His saints, are two distinct phases.

 

[Fembot]

The rapture of the faithful (saints) is the gathering together of the dead faithful & living faithful.

1 Thessalonians 4
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together (the gathering / harvest) with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
​

The subject of the above is the concern of whether the faithful who have died (sleep) are included in the rapture (gathering / harvest).
The faithful dead will be gathered WITH the faithful living.

1 Corinthians 15
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Matthew 24
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
​

To determine when this event happens, all one has to do is determine when God will raise the faithful dead incorruptible, for that is the time the faithful living will be gathered with them.


There are already several clues in the above passages. But there are several specific passages that say when the faithful dead are raised incorruptible --- the last day.

John 6
(39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
(40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6
(44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6
(54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11
(24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
​

Now, there is only one raising / gathering / harvest of the faithful --- the last day.
So, is the last day before or after the tribulation?

Thank God for you Sissy! Whew...

 

[Alabaster]

But you say there will be 2 seperate raptures of the elect. One before the trib (the Church) and one after the trib (Matt 24: 29-31).

Correct?

The Church is going to be removed in what we call the rapture before the time of Jacob's Trouble sets in. When Jesus comes, those few who have comer to faith in Jesus will be gathered to Him, but they are still going to be here. He is coming here! Everyone shall see Him, even the wicked who will be in terror and those who hate Him will be in arms, as He comes with His Church to vanquish His enemies. That is no rapture.

 

[farouk]

It seems that the Rapture, properly speaking, refers to the church, as spoken of in John 14 by the Lord Jesus, and by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 (rather than God's dealings with Israel, which relate more to what the Old Testament calls the Day of the Lord.).

 

[Strangelove]

The Church is going to be removed in what we call the rapture before the time of Jacob's Trouble sets in. When Jesus comes, those few who have comer to faith in Jesus will be gathered to Him, but they are still going to be here. He is coming here! Everyone shall see Him, even the wicked who will be in terror and those who hate Him will be in arms, as He comes with His Church to vanquish His enemies. That is no rapture.

Are the passages below describing the Church 'rapture' or the second gathering of those that come to Christ after the tribulation that you say will be gathered to Him?

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Rapture of the Church pre-trib or post trib gathering?

 

[farouk]

Are the passages below describing the Church 'rapture' or the second gathering of those that come to Christ after the tribulation that you say will be gathered to Him?

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Rapture of the Church pre-trib or post trib gathering?

s:

These verses in 1 Thess. seem to refer to a pre-Trib rapture of the church. Before God re-commences His direct dealings with Israel.