How will the world explain the rapture?

[Strangelove]

s:

These verses in 1 Thess. seem to refer to a pre-Trib rapture of the church. Before God re-commences His direct dealings with Israel.

Interesting.

Duckie >>>> What say you?

 

[jasoncran]

So you're just supporting my point with all that.

There is:

1) 1 active covenant (faith in Christ)
2) 1 group of saints (those who believe)
3) 1 gathering at the last day.

So why still this fixation with seperating the Jews and Gentiles? There is no flesh where spiritual matters are concerned.

explain the 144,000 and why its listed by tribes and men only? and also why does 4 and 20 elders are 2 from each tribe in heaven?

that has to mean something.

 

[Strangelove]

explain the 144,000 and why its listed by tribes and men only? and also why does 4 and 20 elders are 2 from each tribe in heaven?

that has to mean something.

What do you think it means?

 

[jasoncran]

What do you think it means?

god has set jews aside that he knows who will believe and appoints them an office in heaven.

he has a job for the national jews who believe when the lord returns to reign. its called by the light of the world. the lord will reigh from jerusalem in the flesh and will also have us and the jews as fellow judges.

the gentiles with the jews will judge those that dont follow the law given by christ.

paul spoke of the saints judging the world in corinthians i think.

 

[Strangelove]

god has set jews aside that he knows who will believe and appoints them an office in heaven.

he has a job for the national jews who believe when the lord returns to reign. its called by the light of the world. the lord will reigh from jerusalem in the flesh and will also have us and the jews as fellow judges.

the gentiles with the jews will judge those that dont follow the law given by christ.

paul spoke of the saints judging the world in corinthians i think.

So if the 144k are racial hebrews...why does that have any effect whatsoever on this topic, or for that matter any other?

 

[watchman F]

Originally Posted by Strangelove
Are the passages below describing the Church 'rapture' or the second gathering of those that come to Christ after the tribulation that you say will be gathered to Him?

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rapture of the Church pre-trib or post trib gathering?

s:

These verses in 1 Thess. seem to refer to a pre-Trib rapture of the church. Before God re-commences His direct dealings with Israel.

Yet verse 15 tells us exactly when the event you call the rapture takes place.

1st Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

We know the coming the Lord is after the Tribulation. Why do you think the event you call the rapture happen 7 years prior to when the bible says it will take place?????????

 

[watchman F]

Originally Posted by Strangelove
Are you saying the 'rapture' of the church happens before Jesus comes?

Of course.

That is not what scripture teaches us. See post above

 

[Vic C.]

Well that would exclude you.

C'mon man. I know what you believe and I'm also convicted to believe something other than pretribulation. But we all should reason with another brother or sister with scripture and refrain from personal insults and such.

That goes for everyone! :yes

I'm going to "rapture" some of you out of this End Times forum of you don't act civil. :D

 

[Alabaster]

Are the passages below describing the Church 'rapture' or the second gathering of those that come to Christ after the tribulation that you say will be gathered to Him?

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Rapture of the Church pre-trib or post trib gathering?

They refer to the pre-Tribulational rapture of the Bride.

 

[farouk]

I reckon it's all a question of relating the passages of Scripture to whether a particular passage is speaking of Israel or the church.

Because the aspects/stages of the Lord's coming have particular emphasis, whether to the church or Israel.

 

[Strangelove]

Of course.

They refer to the pre-Tribulational rapture of the Bride.

You've stated that the pre-trib rapture happens BEFORE Jesus comes. Yet these verses which you claim to be the pre-trib rapture clearly state that the catching up comes AFTER He descends from heaven with a shout.

Please explain.

 

[Alabaster]

You've stated that the pre-trib rapture happens BEFORE Jesus comes. Yet these verses which you claim to be the pre-trib rapture clearly state that the catching up comes AFTER He descends from heaven with a shout.

Please explain.

Does it say He comes to earth? No, He descends to the firmament where we meet Him. that is not His triumphant second coming. He is taking His Bride first. Then He comes with her to establish His earthly throne...seven years later.

 

[Snowcat]

The Rapture as propagated by Lindsey, Van Impe and the like is a total lie of the natural mind.
Is it possible that there might be a spiritual interpretation to I Thessalonians 4:16-18?

:yes

 

[Strangelove]

Does it say He comes to earth? No, He descends to the firmament where we meet Him. that is not His triumphant second coming. He is taking His Bride first. Then He comes with her to establish His earthly throne...seven years later.

Is there ANY scripture that shows Jesus descending down to Earth? NO!

We've got plenty of scripture describing Jesus as COMING in the clouds though.

Show me any verses describing His 'triumphant second coming' that doesn't involve Him being in the sky please.

Where does scripture say that He comes from the sky and lands on Earth?

Honestly...Jesus coming in the clouds is not His second coming???????

 

[Sinthesis]

C'mon man. I know what you believe and I'm also convicted to believe something other than pretribulation. But we all should reason with another brother or sister with scripture and refrain from personal insults and such.

That goes for everyone! :yes

I'm going to "rapture" some of you out of this End Times forum of you don't act civil. :D

That would be a "post-post rapture".:rolling
I suppose those of us left behind to dwell on the forum would be a lot less tormented.:D

It's fascinating that a thread about how the unbelieving world might explain a rapture ironically exposes the fact that even believers can't satisfactorily explain a rapture amongst themselves.:bicker :shocked

 

[Alabaster]

The Rapture as propagated by Lindsey, Van Impe and the like is a total lie of the natural mind.

False.

Is it possible that there might be a spiritual interpretation to I Thessalonians 4:16-18?

:yes

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.



Yes, look up, for your redemption draws hear.

 

[farouk]

False.



1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.



Yes, look up, for your redemption draws hear.

Alabaster:

Great passage!

Our response:

"Even so, come Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22).

 

[Sissy]

The "rapture" IS the second coming of Christ when He gathers all His elect together.

1 Thessalonians 4
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
​

That’s the ‘raptureâ€, the second coming of Christ.
When the faithful dead and living are gathered together and given incorruptible bodies.

1 Corinthians 15
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
​

Same Event.
The faithful dead and living are gathered together and given incorruptible bodies.


***continued in next post***

 

[Sissy]

The gathering is likened to a harvest.
Christ gives us a parable about the harvest, and explains it.


The parable:

Matthew 13
(24) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
(25)But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
(26)But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
(27)So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
(28)He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
(29)But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
(30)Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
​

Take note that the wheat (faithful) and the tares (unfaithful) will be together UNTIL the harvest when they are gathered according to their respective judgment.


So, when is the harvest?
Christ tells us in His explanation of the parable.


***continued in next post***

 

[Sissy]

The explanation:

Matthew 13
(37) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
(38)The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wickedone;
(39)The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
(40)As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
(41)The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
(42)And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(43)Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
​

Mark expounds on this:

Mark 4
(28)For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
(29)But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.
​

***continued in next post***