I have decided...

[Sothenes]

I do urge you to test their truths through the authority of God however.

Of course klee shay, thanks. I still have strong hesitation about the Sabbath. SDA's Saturday Sabbath makes sense. It seems that Sunday worship comes from pagan sun worshipping. Protestants carrying around many Roman pagan baggages. We should never make light of Ten Commandments.

The Church held service on the first day of the week (Sunday).

This is an HTML link for an article written by Dr. Norman Geisler on the Sabbath for those of you who do not have a PDF viewer.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:yvXl ... an+Geisler)&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

Otherwise you would have to find it in this list:

http://www.ankerberg.org/Articles/archives-td.htm

 

[Imagican]

While many here that know my views on denominations realize that I am NOT an advocate of ANY, the JW's are certainly a devoted bunch. They are serious about their 'religion' and put up with little when it comes to those that are not willing to take their 'walk' seriously.

I have studied these and most other 'religions' and find that each falls short in one way or another, JW's require much of what is indicated that we are ALL to do as 'Christians'. The biggest flaw that I have found in the JW's is that their founder decided that the Bible wasn't to his liking and re-wrote it to change the parts that he disagreed with. One of the main things that he changed was 'eternal punishment' for those that reject God.

On the plus side, they are one of the ONLY major denominations that accept what God and Christ offered as far as the identity of Christ Himself. They believe that He IS the Son of God rather than God Himself. This, I believe, at least places their worship in a 'proper perspective' and pershaps allows the Spirit to dwell more fully among their ranks.

All this is personal opinion of course and I'm quite sure that there are those that will insist that JW's are nothing but a 'cult'. So be it. From my perspective, it's no different than the Baptist, Methodist, SDA, etc......... No better, no worse than the rest of these and CERTAINLY not as much of a 'cult' as the Catholic Church.

So, ginger, my suggestion would be NOT to join ANY cult. But if one MUST join an organized religion, I would offer that the JW's are no worse off than any of the rest. The more I study the nature of the 'first' Church, the more it becomes apparent that we were NOT meant to organize ourselves as we have been taught by the churches. The Church is NOT A church, but the BODY of those that are truly willing to pick up their crosses and follow Christ. I have yet to witness this in ANY church. They love to 'play the game' but are rarely willing to make the slightest efforts to 'follow Christ' in Spirit.

So, good luck to ya and God Bless you in whatever discision you make concerning an organization.

MEC

 

[gingercat]

Imagican,

thank you for your input :D

More I learn about them the more I believe they are the closest to the Bible, IMHO.

I am still learning about them, they want to make sure what I am getting into, and I sure believe that's how it should be as far as when they welcome into God's team. We should inform all new believers or members what it takes to follow Jesus.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

On the plus side, they are one of the ONLY major denominations that accept what God and Christ offered as far as the identity of Christ Himself. They believe that He IS the Son of God rather than God Himself. This, I believe, at least places their worship in a 'proper perspective' and pershaps allows the Spirit to dwell more fully among their ranks.

All this is personal opinion of course and I'm quite sure that there are those that will insist that JW's are nothing but a 'cult'. So be it. From my perspective, it's no different than the Baptist, Methodist, SDA, etc......... No better, no worse than the rest of these and CERTAINLY not as much of a 'cult' as the Catholic Church.

Well Imagican, state your opinions if you like but keep in mind you are not to promote doctrines contrary to the statement of faith of this site since doing so would be violating the TOS.

It is interesting you say you see no difference between Baptist, Methodist, SDA and Jehovah’s Witnesses. That is rather interesting because Jehovah’s witnesses are the only denomination, that you listed, that does not believe in the essential doctrines of Christianity. As you pointed out Jehovah’s witnesses deny the deity of Christ and do not see Him as God in the flesh (which of course goes against what John 1:1-18 points out). So of course I greatly disagree with your position that Jehovah’s Witnesses “worship in a ‘proper perspective’ and perhaps allows the Spirit to dwell more fully among their ranks.†The bottom line is they not only alter the Bible to suite their needs (New World Translation incorrectly translates certain key passages of Scripture) but they outright deny the deity of Christâ€â€making them a non-Christian denomination.

So again, no promotion of doctrines that clearly go against the statemen of faith of this siteâ€â€end of discussion.

 

[gingercat]

As you pointed out Jehovah’s witnesses deny the deity of Christ and do not see Him as God in the flesh (which of course goes against what John 1:1-18 points out).

I would like to put two cents in this statement.

JW interpret Jesus as Son of God and Savior of the world. Yes, they are denying that Jesus is not God himself. And I believe thay are correct in that iterpretation. When One can bring salvation isn't that divinity? :roll:

Christians' main focus is that we need Jesus for salvation. Why are you persecuting those who are faithfully evangelizing Jesus as Savior of the world?

 

[ArtGuy]

Jehovah's Witness, huh? Shame you'll most likely never be going to heaven, I guess.

 

[gingercat]

Jehovah's Witness, huh? Shame you'll most likely never be going to heaven, I guess.

we have to see artguy. :wink:

 

[destiny]

If I had to go get one likeminded christian to come over or meet me in the park for fellowship and bible study it would be better than being tossed around by every wind of doctrine.
The only perfect person to ever grace the earth was Jesus, you will find the same human imperfections everywhere you go, just in different forms.
Another thing is Satan isn't divided against himself, if you think the JW's have it together maybe it's because satan doesn't bother what already belongs to him.

 

[gingercat]

If I had to go get one likeminded christian to come over or meet me in the park for fellowship and bible study it would be better than being tossed around by every wind of doctrine.
The only perfect person to ever grace the earth was Jesus, you will find the same human imperfections everywhere you go, just in different forms.
Another thing is Satan isn't divided against himself, if you think the JW's have it together maybe it's because satan doesn't bother what already belongs to him.

I believe you are persecuting faithful Christians. We have to wait and see.

 

[Johny]

Gingercat, this is what Doug Batchelor actually believes about who Jesus is. I took it from his website.

http://www.amazingfacts.org/about_us/we_believe.asp

We believe that Jesus is the eternal, self-existent God and is not a created being. Even though He is fully God, He took upon Himself the form of a man to live and die for our sins.

He believes Jesus is God, contrary to what you said.

*Could someone please quote my post?

 

[gingercat]

We believe that Jesus is the eternal, self-existent God and is not a created being. Even though He is fully God, He took upon Himself the form of a man to live and die for our sins.

He believes Jesus is God, contrary to what you said.

You are right Johny. Thank you for your correction. I misremembered. I apologize to every one.

 

[Johny]

Have you taken me off ignore Gingercat? If so I apologize if some of my previous posts seemed harrassing too you. I'm used to writing argumentative/ critical essays at school. That's why my writing seems bold or aggressive sometimes. :D

Once again, I'm sorry.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

JW interpret Jesus as Son of God and Savior of the world. Yes, they are denying that Jesus is not God himself. And I believe thay are correct in that iterpretation. When One can bring salvation isn't that divinity? :roll:

Christians' main focus is that we need Jesus for salvation. Why are you persecuting those who are faithfully evangelizing Jesus as Savior of the world?

If a particular denomination evangelizes a Jesus that is not of the Bible then that is wrong. The Bible is pretty clear on that. So I’m not persecuting Christians at all, I’m simply speaking against so-called Christians who proclaim a different Jesus then is found in the Bible.

As for the SDA not believing that Jesus was in fact God in the flesh well then explain this:

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

If you look at the SDA’s official site you will find that you are mistaken. They not only believe Jesus was God in the flesh they also believe in the Trinity.

The bottom line is no one is to promote a religion that is contrary to the statement of faith of this website.

 

[gingercat]

If you look at the SDA’s official site you will find that you are mistaken. They not only believe Jesus was God in the flesh they also believe in the Trinity.

You are right. I was mixed up because they believe archangel Michael is Jesus. I already apologized about it.

The bottom line is no one is to promote a religion that is contrary to the statement of faith of this website.

Why believing Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world is not good enough? Who can save the world without being divine? The doctrine that Jesus is God the Father Himself is not clear at all.

 

[Free]

The doctrine that Jesus is God the Father Himself is not clear at all.

That is not a Christian belief and is not at all what NPX is arguing; that is not trinitarianism.

 

[gingercat]

Why believing Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world is not good enough? Who can save the world without being divine?

 

[Imagican]

Noc,

I am by NO MEANS promoting ANY denomination. I thought I made that perfectly clear in my post. And I didn't mean that there are literally no differences between the denominations, what I meant was that I have yet to find a specific denomination that was any 'better' than any other. They all fall short in my opinion and therefore if anyone were to ask my opinion I would suggest that they shun ANY denomination in favor of THE CHURCH. Names such as Baptist, Methodist, etc..... do nothing but separate rather than bind those that truly seek the Lord.

JW's ARE devoted, I stated NOTHING derogatory or untrue. I pointed out that Russell decided to write his OWN Bible eliminating those parts that he disagreed with. Trust me, I promote NO such religion. I simply feel that this one is NO MORE, NO LESS a 'cult' than any other.

Let me 'back up' here for just a second. Through my studies, I would say that the Baptist 'doctrine' is the closest thing to Christianity to be found in the major denominations. This one too however has strayed from it's original statement of faith and bowed it's knees to the masses instead of 'standing up' for what it supposedly stood for. They have opted for their video screens, rock bands, and lax fellowship to the point that they are little different than any others. Just a 'sign of the times' though, so it comes as no surprise to me that all must eventually join into ONE.

And let me state once more for the record; I DO NOT promote the acceptance of or joining in JW's. Any more than I would suggest or promote ANY denomination. I would not want to be responsible for leading ANY ONE into ANY denomination. Pay attention to my words and you will see that the ONLY thing that I promote is a personal relationship with the Father through His Son. That IS enough and ALL that matters for those that understand the need for Salvation. All the rest of this 'stuff' is man deciding that God or Christ are NOT enough. Accept the simplicity that IS Jesus Christ and the rest you could ignore as if it NEVER existed.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Imagican,

I understand now what you were saying, however; before this post it was not quite clear.

As for this:

Let me 'back up' here for just a second. Through my studies, I would say that the Baptist 'doctrine' is the closest thing to Christianity to be found in the major denominations. This one too however has strayed from it's original statement of faith and bowed it's knees to the masses instead of 'standing up' for what it supposedly stood for. They have opted for their video screens, rock bands, and lax fellowship to the point that they are little different than any others. Just a 'sign of the times' though, so it comes as no surprise to me that all must eventually join into ONE.

I agree that lax fellowship is no doubt a bad thing but I don’t understand how video screens and rock bands necessarily always equals a bad thing. If a church decides to have a video screen (or monitor) up in a sanctuary with the expressed purpose of showing Scripture and lyrics for the hymns (or praise songs), how is such a thing wrong? How does such a thing dishonor God? Now I understand you having a problem with such things if the majority of the church budget is focused on these things instead of evangelism and missions efforts, but you don’t know if that is the case. Of course such things ultimately are a mute point next to the kinds of things that the preacher is preaching. If the preacher is not preaching sound doctrine and not declaring the gospel then that truly is a terrible thing.

Pay attention to my words and you will see that the ONLY thing that I promote is a personal relationship with the Father through His Son. That IS enough and ALL that matters for those that understand the need for Salvation. All the rest of this 'stuff' is man deciding that God or Christ are NOT enough. Accept the simplicity that IS Jesus Christ and the rest you could ignore as if it NEVER existed.

Well, I don’t quite understand what you mean by “other stuff.†If you are talking about how a church service is run or something along those lines then fine…I can agree that that is not important. However, if the “other stuff†has to do with the doctrines preached concern the nature of Christ, his deityâ€â€being not only fully man and but fully God as well, Jesus’ relationship to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and so on then I have to strongly disagree. Such things are not man made, they are truths found in God’s Word and therefore God made and are very important.

In any event, I now somewhat understand you. I understand you enough to know that you are not trying to promote doctrines contrary to the statement of faith of this website

 

[Imagican]

Noc,

The reason that I mention the 'video screens and rock bands' is that ALL the churches seem to be taking on this 'generic' 'feel'. It's like they have become clones. As if 'someone' did a 'poll' of some sort and decided that this is the 'new' format that will be practiced in churches, ALL OF THEM. I find this extremely dangerous.

knowing that there comes a time in our 'not too distant future' when the anti-Christ will be worshiped on this Earth as Christ Himself, it becomes obvious that things MUST change in order to usher in this possibility. I believe that this 'cloning' of the churches is but a small step in this direction.

All the other 'stuff' that I refered to is the 'man-made' tradition that the churches participate in. Left over baggage from what they tried to separate themselves from but were unable to recognize in full. Sunday worship when we were told specifically what day the Sabbath IS. 'Trinity' which is totally unscriptural in nature, (yes, scripture CAN be used to back it up, but it is NOT scriptural by NATURE). And just the general fact that the churches have been turned into idols of worship rather than simple gathering places.

It has taken a couple of thousand years to bring about these changes and the churches have often been working over-time to insure that their followers be 'satisfied' with them. So much so that there will be those that refute what I offer and defend themselves and the churches which they attend. Not surprising.

Guys and Gals, as we watch Thess defend his faith and sit back shaking our heads wondering, 'why doesn't he get it'?, I feel the same for the rest. Each one of us that is a 'part' of a specific denomination will defend that denomination like it's the ONLY true WAY on the planet. Sorry folks, couldn't be further from the truth. There is ONLY ONE WAY. EVERYTHING else is 'something different'.

Now, for the proof in the pudding, I ask WHICH denomination is the TRUTH? Which church is THE CHURCH. WHO should I follow; the Baptists? The Methodists?, The Pentacostals? The Non-Denominationals? Who is it that has it Right? See what I mean?

 

[Sothenes]

Now, for the proof in the pudding, I ask WHICH denomination is the TRUTH? Which church is THE CHURCH. WHO should I follow; the Baptists? The Methodists?, The Pentacostals? The Non-Denominationals? Who is it that has it Right? See what I mean?

They all share essential doctrine of the historic Christian faith and if I pulled out "The Creeds of Christiandom" by Phillip Schaff, I can prove they all believe the same thing but they sometimes call it different things. I looked at the Westminster Confession of Faith and concluded that they believed many of the essentials of the faith but sometimes it is called something different. We have this commonality and we are brothers in Christ.