stranger said:
brakelite2 wrote:
But what irks me more than any other argument or interpretation or understanding (or misunderstanding) is this. That anyone, whether they regard themselves as a scholar or not, can serious;y and honestly and sincerely suggest that the God Who gave us His only Son to die on our behalf, Who loves us with an eternal love that forms the basis of His very nature and is the fount and source of everything He does, is the same God they claim deliberately and with foresight and determination will, throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity, work daily miracles on behalf of billions of lost souls to keep them alive for the express and sole purpose of ensuring they suffer pain and agony as retributive and punitive judgment against a short lifetime of sin.
Of all the most evil and wicked doctrines that assassinate the true character of our Creator God, eternal torment is it.
Hi brakelite2,
Certainly what you feel and think is a very human response - but God is not like one of us!
br
G'day mate. What you say above, that God is not like us, is so very true. And that is the crux of my whole argument. We humans are a despicable lot who
do invent some evil and wicked ways to keep men alive as long as possible while torturing them . This has been turned into an art form with modern day chemicals, but during the dark ages was practiced by the medieval church on racks and such like all in the name of God. And with the doctrine of eternal torment, we paint God as one of us. That my fine Aussie cuz is shameful.
Joe 67, you have done exactly what I said so many would do. Claim that Jesus' words in Mathew 25 regarding 'everlasting fire' somehow completely contradicts what Jesus said in the most quoted verse in the entire Bible. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever beleiveth in Him should not
perish, but have everlasting life."
Perish in this context is set by our Saviour in direct juxtaposition to eternal life. In other words, the perishing is a state also that is eternal. Death, destruction, without hope, without a resurrection, without life.
Ezek 28:18,19 is a prophecy against Satan, in the figure of the King of Tyre. It teaches that Satan will in the end be destroyed. One thing to remember is that immortality is given to the righteous at the resurrection. Until then we are mortal beings, subject to death. Nowhere does the scripture state that the unrighteous receive immortality, which they would need to live forever in hell. It is a gift to those who have accepted Christ as Saviour. And it is for them
only.
I think the justice of God is the key issue. Does not the scripture say that Jesus died for the ungodly, the just for the unjust? What was the punishment Jesus suffered? Was it not death? Not eternal torment? The wages of sin is death. The wicked are not given eternal life, that is a gift for the redeemed.To claim that the wicked are forever tormented is to claim that they, like the redeemed, are immortal. Death is the scriptural and just punishment for rebellion. Even human laws allow for capital punishment for treason, but who would dare suggest torturing them till they die. Are we more just than God?
Many non-believers cite the doctrine of eternal torment as the reason for not accepting Christianity. They claim that such a God as who would torture anyone for all eternity for the sins of a short life here is not a God worth believing in.
Let us take for example a hypothetical 15 year old of the second century ad. Through the ministry of the early church he hears the gospel message, but the seed does not take root, and the cares of this world and the pleasures of life crowd out the truth and the young man moves on like so many of our day.He is not a bad boy as such, your typical young teen discovering life and looking forward to a rosy future.
He commited no crime; regarded his parents with honour; respected his neighbours, and was generally regarded as a likeable young man. But like all men, was a sinner and was in need of a Saviour.
Unfortunately he lived in an area frequented by warring Germanic barbarians and was killed when his village was overun. Because of his rejection of the gospel, it is contended by the majority of todays believers that such a one would now be suffering in hell, subjected unceasingly to the pain of hell-fire and having no hope of it ever coming to an end.
Fast forward to our day. A despotic ruler, be it a Stalin, Hitler, Amin, or whoever, tramples upon the lives of anyone and everyone to gain power, and once there murders thousands more to keep it. Not only so, but is not afraid to torture any one for information regarding enemies who may be a threat to his rule. Family members are not excepted from his tyranny, for brothers and sisters alike suffer equally with the common people.
His son rises up and assasinates him in his own bed, frees the people from his murderous ways, and establishes democracy. Both father and son, neither having accepted the gospel of Christ, are now dead and are suffering equally for all eternity.
Yet the young man refered to above suffers, according to the modern doctrine of hell, for 2000 years more than the those who die today, and are guilty of far greater crimes, not only against humanity, but contrary to the laws of God Himself.
Not only so, but the son of the dictator suffers equally with the father.
Is this a true reflection of the justice of God?
It seems to me that the character and nature of God is at stake here. And if there be some who are rejecting the gospel because of this supposed aspect of God's nature, then it would pay us to be careful of taking a position where we might actually be working against the gospel rather than for it.
I say nature of God, because quite simply, we rightly villify such a one as the dictator above who murdered and tortured his way in life, yet that pails into insignificance compared to what we attribute to God Himself regarding the final destiny of the wicked. Is the character of God then of such a state that sanctifies an act when done by Himself, but is an abomination when done by anyone else?
Eternity is a long time. It's forever!!! Without end. The first zillion years are just the first moment. Our lives here are but a moment in comparison. And that's a full adult life. Many are much less. The Bible teaches that God, amongst other things, is just. He's fair. What we sow
we reap. Nothing more, nothing less.
We know in our hearts what is right . We know when injustice and corruption takes root in a mans soul and we rightly cringe and demand fairness and justice to be, as the saying goes, not to be done only, but to be seen to be done. This we demand and expect from our human lawmakers. But as Job says, shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his Maker? (Job 4:17)
Yet we attribute to God a character that passes a sentence that so out- weighs the crime commited that if suggested by human judge it would be laughed out of court. Even the worst of dictators never dreamt of such an end to his enemies.
Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Gen 18:25
