thessalonian said:
jgredline said:
thessalonian said:
In the RCC or CC they don't hold this view and its ok.
Hold what view?
Thess
If I am not mistaken and I could be, Does not the CC teach that if you commit Scuicide the person goes to hell because there was no time to repent?
The Catholic Church teaches that if one committs suicide willfully and knowingly and dies immediately, having not even an instant to repent, they are in the fires of hell. This is not the same as what you have said. We do not know if they had no time to repent. We do not know if they had full knowledge of the seriousness of their actions or if it was a full act of will and so we make no final judgement on the matter. It is very grave but Christ alone knows the eternal outcome. We hope and pray that he was merciful and gave the grace to eternal salvation. My first post in this thread on pg. 1 I believe, gives further details.
Thess
What you said above is what I thought the CC or RC church taught and I believe it to be faulty teaching. It goes against Scripture. What the RC or CC church is teaching that if anybody commits any sin and does not have a chance to repent they will burn in hell. A sin is a sin afterall. I don't often disagree with your points of view but on this one I will debate to the end of time. When Christ said it was finished, he meant it was finished. Not I am almost finished or I have done my part now you do yours. No it was finished.
Hebrews 9:11 to Hebrews 10:18 (This is one of those cases where the chapter break was placed in the wrong spot.)
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,2 then through the greater and more perfect tent (inot made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with othe blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies3 for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works uto serve the living God.
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that wthose who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.†21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 or was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared monce for all nat the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sin? 3 But yin these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
“ Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’ â€Â
8 When he said above, “You have neither desired or taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings†(these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.†He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands hdaily at his service, ioffering repeatedly the same sacrifices, jwhich can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ2 had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he ksat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time luntil his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering mhe has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 “ This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,â€Â
17 then he adds,
“ I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.â€Â
18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Heb 9:11-10:18). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
This part of scripture is pretty self explanitory.
When Christ went to the Cross he was a suffeciant Sacrifice once and for all and he remembers our sins no more.
There is only one sin thats unforgivable and virtually impossible to commit.
That sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I should be at work / working right now but I can't let this go. Here will break it down a little more.
The above scripture was taken using the ESV for a litteral easy to read translation and the commentary below I used the NKJV to get a better feel for what the writer of Hebrews was saying.
9:12 Unlike the sacrifice of the high priest, who repeatedly entered the Most Holy Place with blood once a year, Jesus’ sacrifice was complete and did not need to be repeated. The work of atonement is done; it cannot be undone.
9:14 The blood of Christ is clearly the price involved in the atonement. The atonement of Christ is one of the themes of the Book of Hebrews and the pivotal doctrine of the entire Bible. The sacrifices of the O.T. were forerunners of this work of Christ. The incarnation of Jesus was for the purpose of His suffering death in behalf of mankind. Atonement is a multifaceted concept which includes reconciliationâ€â€the restoration of man to fellowship with God (Rom. 5:10; 2 Cor. 5:19,); propitiationâ€â€the satisfying of the just demands of God’s holiness for the punishment of sin (Rom. 3:25,); and redemptionâ€â€the purchasing of the enslaved sinner to make him free (Col. 1:13, 14). The atonement of Christ made it possible for God to justify men and to be just in so doing (Rom. 3:26). No passage could be any more lucid than Lev. 17:11, which declares that “the life of the flesh is in the blood.†This life poured out in substitutionary sacrifice makes atonement for the soul. Nor is there any other possible approach to God. “Without shedding of blood there is no remission†(9:22). Christ’s death on Golgotha was substitutionary (in our place). It is the act of Christ which makes possible man’s forgiveness in that it satisfies the just and holy wrath of God.
9:15 The “Mediator†is the One who stands between men and God to bring them together.
9:16 Here the more restricted sense of “testament†as a “will†or a “covenant†is required. The testator had to die before the benefits of this covenant could be fully realized by those for whom they were intended. Again the objective necessity of the Lord’s death is affirmed.
9:19 “Goats†are not specifically mentioned in Ex. 24, but they could be used for burnt offerings (Lev. 1:10; 4:23). Neither is the phrase “water, scarlet wool, and hyssop†found in Exodus, but those items are used in the ceremony of the red heifer (Num. 19:6, 7, where the word “scarlet†appears without the word “woolâ€Â), which has already been mentioned in v. 13. Exodus does not tell about the sprinkling of the book itself, but it is implied.
9:21 Exodus 40:9 speaks of the anointing of the tabernacle, and everything in it, with oil but does not mention blood. Numbers 7:1 indicates, however, that Moses “anointed it and consecrated itâ€Â; this sanctification of the tabernacle would involve the sprinkling of blood.
9:26–28 Christ’s atonement conquered sin. Only one such atonement was necessary. The continuing significance of that one act of God in Christ may be observed in v. 28, in which the atonement is linked to the return of Christ, to consummating the salvation which was purchased on the cross.
10:2 The meaning is not that those under the Law had no forgiveness of any kind ( Lev. 4:20, 26, 31, 35) but rather that final cleansing was not possible. The consciousness of guilt was not removed. Only Christ provides that.
10:5–7 Psalm 40:6–8 is understood to be typological, referring to Christ’s incarnation. Part of the psalm (i.e., v. 12) would not apply to Christ because it speaks of the psalmist’s sins.
10:5 Instead of “a body You have prepared for Me,†the Hebrew text of Ps. 40:6 reads “My ears You have opened.†The LXX reads “a body You prepared for Me,†which paraphrases the Hebrew. God forms the ears of the psalmist for the purpose of hearing and responding. The LXX understands that the body is fashioned to hear and to do the will of God.
10:12 “Forever†in the Greek text could be understood as either one sacrifice for sins forever (vv. 10, 14; 7:27; 9:12, 25–28) or that He forever sat down, His “sitting†being contrasted with the “standing†of the Levitical priests (v. 11), thus indicating the completion of the atonement.
10:18 The blood of sacrificial animals effected a temporary atonement, but the sacrificial system in itself could not take away sin and its consequent debt (which required forgiveness), slavery (which called for redemption), or alienation (which demanded reconciliation). Christ through His death made the perfect atonement with everlasting efficacy. The key contrast is between “remission†(aphesis, Gk.) and “offering†(prosphora, Gk.). The O.T. sacrifices were merely an “offering,†a divinely appointed temporary means to bring man to God; Christ’s redemptive work, “remission,†was the perfect completion of atonement.
If Jesus who is GOD is your lord and saviour then your sins have been dealt with. A universalist believes that all roads lead to heaven. There is only one way and as Jesus said. I am the way the truth and the life.
I have just spent one and a half hour on this when I should be working but I could not sit back while people try and steal Jesus Gloria by saying his work on the cross was not sufficiant. I suggest that if you feel this way you need to get an understanding of the cross and grace. I thank God all mighty Jesus Christ that I was born on this side of the cross under Grace and not under the Law.
Further more to say that unless you ask for forgiveness of sin before you die means your doomed for all eternity is simply bad theology.
Suppose Billy Grahm was hit by a BUS and he said oh s_ _ _ and died instantly, would this mean Billy Grahm went to hell? Lets be real people.
I have great respect for most of the RCC or CC but this theology very much sounds like them and its flat wrong. I don't want to offend my CC brothers and sisters but Jesus who is GOD , his glory is more important to me than offending some people.
When Jesus went to the Cross he said '' it is finished''
Jg
