If You Commit Suicide, Can You Go To Heaven ?

[Vic C.]

Hey! Isn't it like past your bedtime?

 

[thessalonian]

No, you say that I misinterpret it because you superimpose your belief of once saved always saved over it and then tell me it says what you think. It does not. Paul is saying to judge him a wicked person (i.e. without) and caste him out, allowing God's chastisement to bring him to repentence.

"But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. "

The man is a fornicator at heart. He is saying subject him to the judgement of God. That is clear.

I don't expect you to override your RCC dogmatic beliefs to understand God's word, but the scriptures are clear. If one is a brother and such a one is caught up in fornication, covetousness, idolatry, railing, drunkedness, or extortion, do not keep company with such a one. Brethren do not judge those without, only those within.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1 Corinthians 5:11-12

I do expect you to consider that when the word therefore is used it means that the second part of the sentence draws a conclusion from the first. The first is talking about God as the judge and so THEREFORE Paul says to cast him out to the judge. That is pretty simple and clear. I am not quoting Catholic dogma to you at all. Just looking at the plain meaning of the text. The man is in a fallen state.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

I really hope this helps you to understand because living by your theology is dangerouse.

___

Only from your outsider perspective which has a distorted view of Catholic theology quite clearly. I will try get time to comment more on your post later.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Hey Judas killed himself and he will be in the Pearly Gates.

 

[thessalonian]

Hey Judas killed himself and he will be in the Pearly Gates.

It is funny that those who so often misuse the passage "judge not, least you be judged" say things like this as well. God is the judge, unto salvation as well as damnation (which I know you don't believe in but that belief will be hard to maintain when you die, not to judge where you are going). A glass of poisn is poison whether you believe it is water or poison.

 

[Soma-Sight]

It is funny that those who so often misuse the passage "judge not, least you be judged" say things like this as well. God is the judge, unto salvation as well as damnation (which I know you don't believe in but that belief will be hard to maintain when you die, not to judge where you are going). A glass of poisn is poison whether you believe it is water or poison.

I believe in hell.

Just not the sick twisted RCC version. :-?

Do some research on the actual Hebrew and Greek terms for everlasting.

Judas was a necesary player in the narrative of Christ. He was the betrayer but I believe a God of mercy will forgive even the one who personally set Him up for death.

 

[thessalonian]

Thessalonian

1:john 1:9
Here is what it means.
1:9 In order for us to walk day by day in fellowship with God and with our fellow believers, we must confess our sins: sins of commission, sins of omission, sins of thought, sins of act, secret sins, and public sins. We must drag them out into the open before God, call them by their names, take sides with God against them, and forsake them. Yes, true confession involves forsaking of sins: “He who covers his sins will not prosper: but whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy†(Prov. 28:13).
When we do that, we can claim the promise that God is faithful and just to forgive. He is faithful in the sense that He has promised to forgive and will abide by His promise. He is just to forgive because He has found a righteous basis for forgiveness in the substitutionary work of the Lord Jesus on the cross. And not only does He guarantee to forgive, but also to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Do I hear an amen to that. I fully agree that Christians are to confess our sins. That is why we in the Catholic Church have confession. I fully trust in Christ that when I confess my sin that I am cleansed of it. As I confess my sins, indicating my rejection of that which I struggle against (roman 7) I am given grace to overcome it. This is called sanctification, ie. growing in holiness. If I truly reject sin I should eventually win the battle against it as Christ wishes to free me from it.

The forgiveness John speaks about here is parental, not judicial. Judicial forgiveness means forgiveness from the penalty of sins, which the sinner receives when he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is called judicial because it is granted by God acting as Judge. But what about sins which a person commits after conversion? As far as the penalty is concerned, the price has already been paid by the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary.

This distinction you make between parental vs. judicial for me is simply a way to make your theology fit. Sin has a price whether we are a converted Christian or not. Our sin causes harm to others whether we are a converted Christian or not. Others suffer for our sin whether we are a converted Christian or not. We have less excuse to sin as a Christian because we are to know better and Jesus tells us we are judged more harshly in Luke 12.

47: And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
48: But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

Othere translations say that he is "treated with the unbeliever". It should be noted as well that two senarios are played out in this passage. First the servant spoken of is presented as a good and faithful servant. But in the second senario it says that the master delays and THAT (as in the same one) begins to do wrong.

But as far as fellowship in the family of God is concerned, the sinning saint needs parental forgiveness, that is, the forgiveness of His Father. He obtains it by confessing his sin. We need judicial forgiveness only once; that takes care of the penalty of all our sinsâ€â€past, present, and future. But we need parental forgiveness throughout our Christian life.
When we confess our sins, we must believe, on the authority of the word of God, that He forgives us. And if He forgives us, we must be willing to forgive ourselves.

The Master above judged the servant for the sins he committed. Serious disobedience to the master does in fact bring about judgement. No not every little sin. Stealing a cookie won't bring about damnation but getting drunk and beating the other servants does apparently, unless you want to go dispensationist on me. That is the way some get around Luke 12. :-?
Paul says the man is to be cast out to the judgement of God. He is a wicked servant. He may have been a faithful one before. Pre-forgiven sin is illogical and unbiblical. One cannot heal a future cut by putting a bandaid on where they think the cut might occur.

I really hope this helps you to understand because living by your theology is dangerouse.

Perhaps you would care to elaborate.

 

[Bruchko]

So one of the key points that I get from the post is if you kill yourself then you go to hell because you weren't able to repent of the sin. I'm all about repenting. I do it first thing in the morning and I'd say I do it 80 percent of the time right after I've done something wrong. Since I think it's about 80 that probably means its closer to 60%. Anyways, what happens if I sin, turn around and get hit by a bus. Chances are I would have repented in a matter of seconds, but I didn't get the chance. Does that mean you think I'm going to hell?

 

[jgredline]

So one of the key points that I get from the post is if you kill yourself then you go to hell because you weren't able to repent of the sin. I'm all about repenting. I do it first thing in the morning and I'd say I do it 80 percent of the time right after I've done something wrong. Since I think it's about 80 that probably means its closer to 60%. Anyways, what happens if I sin, turn around and get hit by a bus. Chances are I would have repented in a matter of seconds, but I didn't get the chance. Does that mean you think I'm going to hell?

Brunchko
I would suggest that you go back and read my post.
In short, if your a born again christian and in a moment of haste or depression you commit suicide you would go to heaven. When Jesus went to the cross and he said it it finished, he means it is finished. He paid for your sins 2000 years ago. He paid for your sins ahead of time. This is not a ticket to sin because a Christian would not be compeled to sin, but in syaing that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. This is why we need a savoir.
In the RCC or CC they don't hold this view and its ok.
Anyway go back and read my post and you can see my argument.
Thanks jg

 

[Bruchko]

It wasn't directed towards your post. =87] I meant it as no attack at any one post. Just a theme I felt like I got from a few posters that I wanted clarification on their view. Thanks for clarifying yours!

 

[thessalonian]

In the RCC or CC they don't hold this view and its ok.

Hold what view?

 

[jgredline]

In the RCC or CC they don't hold this view and its ok.

Hold what view?

Thess
If I am not mistaken and I could be, Does not the CC teach that if you commit Scuicide the person goes to hell because there was no time to repent?

 

[thessalonian]

In the RCC or CC they don't hold this view and its ok.

Hold what view?

Thess
If I am not mistaken and I could be, Does not the CC teach that if you commit Scuicide the person goes to hell because there was no time to repent?

The Catholic Church teaches that if one committs suicide willfully and knowingly and dies immediately, having not even an instant to repent, they are in the fires of hell. This is not the same as what you have said. We do not know if they had no time to repent. We do not know if they had full knowledge of the seriousness of their actions or if it was a full act of will and so we make no final judgement on the matter. It is very grave but Christ alone knows the eternal outcome. We hope and pray that he was merciful and gave the grace to eternal salvation. My first post in this thread on pg. 1 I believe, gives further details.

 

[Solo]

It is interesting that some believe that their salvation is dependant upon what they WORK OUT, as opposed to what the Lord Jesus Christ WORKED OUT.

Did Jesus Christ die on the cross for all of the sins of those born again, or just the sins that those born again confess?

Did Jesus die on the cross after we confessed our sins or before we confessed our sins?

Why does the Bible teach that those that have believed in Jesus Christ are sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit jump in and out of believers at every sin and every confession?

I don't believe that the Bible teaches such a ridiculous understanding of salvation, but I believe man comes up with these things out of the sinful flesh.

 

[thessalonian]

It is interesting how many on this board present false dichotomies, misrepresenting the teachings of the Catholic faith.

It is interesting that some believe that their salvation is dependant upon what they WORK OUT, as opposed to what the Lord Jesus Christ WORKED OUT.

The grace of God working in us brings us to repentance. This cannot be separated from what our Lord Jesus Christ WORKED OUT as you do. God by his power works in and through us.

20: Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
21: to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.


If we repent it is because of him. If we do good it is because of him. ALL IS GRACE!

Did Jesus Christ die on the cross for all of the sins of those born again, or just the sins that those born again confess?

Can a gash be stiched before it is cut? Can a husband tell his wife, I am sorry for all the times I will cheat on you? Can grace be applied to a sin, not yet committed? Surely you see how nonsensical this is.

Did Jesus die on the cross after we confessed our sins or before we confessed our sins?

Well then I guess we don't need to get born again since his dying before means that sins were forgiven before. If our sins are already forgiven because he died before them then repentence is never neccessary. Then of course the question arises, why isn't everyone going to heaven. Why doesn't he allow this grace to forgive all men's sins. Does it depend on them repenting? Surely not you seem to say. Does it depend on them submitting their lives to him in obedience? Surely not you say. I like my all is grace theory better.

Why does the Bible teach that those that have believed in Jesus Christ are sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit jump in and out of believers at every sin and every confession?

Stealing a cookie isn't quite the same as going on a shooting rampage. If you were Catholic you wouldn't have these questions. But since you refuse to listen to the explanations that have been given time and time again I see no point in goiong through the same circle. Your position still allows for a man going on a shooting rampage and not having to repent to go to heaven. That is what is illogical, i.e. ridiculous.

 

[Solo]

It is interesting how many on this board present false dichotomies, misrepresenting the teachings of the Catholic faith.

It is interesting that some believe that their salvation is dependant upon what they WORK OUT, as opposed to what the Lord Jesus Christ WORKED OUT.

The grace of God working in us brings us to repentance. This cannot be separated from what our Lord Jesus Christ WORKED OUT as you do. God by his power works in and through us.

20: Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
21: to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.


If we repent it is because of him. If we do good it is because of him. ALL IS GRACE!

Do we then jump in and out of salvation, or is it a one time gift of the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[thessalonian]

It is interesting how many on this board present false dichotomies, misrepresenting the teachings of the Catholic faith.

It is interesting that some believe that their salvation is dependant upon what they WORK OUT, as opposed to what the Lord Jesus Christ WORKED OUT.

The grace of God working in us brings us to repentance. This cannot be separated from what our Lord Jesus Christ WORKED OUT as you do. God by his power works in and through us.

20: Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
21: to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.


If we repent it is because of him. If we do good it is because of him. ALL IS GRACE!

Do we then jump in and out of salvation, or is it a one time gift of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Wrong question. Salvation is continuing in grace. Now one can be in grace but not predestined to salvation. Paul makes that clear in Gals 5 when he says "you have fallen from grace. You are severed from Christ". Now do tell how this statement makes any sense in your framework of salvation? Can a man be said to have fallen from a tree he was never in? Can a branch be severed from a tree it was never attached to? Your man made doctrines render Paul's words ridiculous. Of coruse some will obvuscate them as to the Hebrews. But then they must deal with Romans 11 and jesus words on being cut off from the vine. More obvuscations will arise of course. Grace leads us down the path of salvation by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is freely given but we can reject it and fall off the path. This by our free will which God never violates. He is not a rapist.

So how about it. Can you go on a shooting rampage tommorow and still go to heaven because your born again? You may say, oh well a born again believer would never do that. So then I say, well do born again believers steal cookies. I think you would say yes. So where is the cut off of sins that a born again believer would never committ as evidence of his born againness? Oh wait, you say there is no mortal or venial sin. All sin is the same. Conundrum again. Stealing a cookie is akin to murder so a born again Christian should do neither as a sign of his born againness. Don't get me wrong. I believe that one must be born of water and spirit. I just don't see your version of it where it's a free ticket to heaven regardless of sins, as a viable explanation of what the Bible says.

 

[thessalonian]

More problem passages:

Heb 1,2

14: Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?
1: Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.
2: For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,
3: how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him,

Hmmm. Why doesn't Paul say "you will drift away from it" and "how shall you escape", knowing that he is already saved? Isn't Paul a part of we? Yet for some odd reason he inserts himself in to the text as well as those whom he is speaking to (psst. that's you and I solo". We obtain salvation. We are saved and so if we die this instant we go to heaven but we must persevere in salvation or we make Paul's words ridiculous.

 

[Solo]

So we can sin some sins and be alright, but we have to subscribe to someone's notion of what sins those are that Jesus died for that doesn't require confession, and what sins Jesus did not die for that are not confessed such as suicide.

What does this verse mean:

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:4-5

And what does it mean that believers are sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit?

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:12-14

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

 

[thessalonian]

So we can sin some sins and be alright, but we have to subscribe to someone's notion of what sins those are that Jesus died for that doesn't require confession, and what sins Jesus did not die for that are not confessed such as suicide.

You pose questions without understanding the many things I have told you along the way. Or do you simply ignore what I have said. No sin is alright and all sin is forgiven by the grace of Christ. No, it is not someone's notion of what is sin. You think they cause me conundrums when they do not. Are you ever going to answer the conundrums that are obvios in your framework that I have asked?

A well formed conscience guided by the Holy Spirit convicts a man of his sins, for God's laws are written on his heart. As I have said, partaking in the Eucharist, which IS THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST AND IS DIRECTLY TIED TO HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS FOR THE FORIGENESS OF SINS forgives venial sin (i.e. stealing a cookie). Sins of a grave and willful nature need to be confessed.