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Immaculate Conception

miamited said:
Hi wondering
It's just so hard to tell in this format when people are trying to be humorous or sarcastic. Unfortunately, one of the times it happened before, the person seemed a bit upset about it and accused me of not reading the poster information, which was true, but I now am a little gun shy about it and like I say, it's just so hard to tell without 'LOL"s or laugh emojis.


Thanks for the grace...I'm sure I'll need more.
Click to expand...

Yes.
And save some for me!
:)
 
Hi wondering
wondering said:
Come on Ted, you're too intelligent !
Click to expand...
Well, I can tell you that I'm too intelligent to believe what's trying to be taught here.

You're right, I'm too intelligent to believe what someone tells me is in the Scriptures, or is what the Scriptures mean to say with accompanying Scriptural support on the matter. There is no Scriptural support that Mary was any different, up until the day that the angel Gabriel visited her, than any other young woman living in all of Israel in that day.

God bless,
Ted
 
miamited said:
Hi wondering


I'm not sure that anyone's really too confused about 'when' it happened. I think the confusion is in 'how' it happened. As I've asked here, there could be some necessary (to God) reason that the embryo of Jesus was fully formed in heaven or by the 'hands' of the Holy Spirit and then that already fertilized zygot is attached to a woman's womb. Not a whole lot different than egg fertilization techniques outside of the womb today, but of course, without all the medical personnel and equipment.

If that's the case, then there is no sin nature in Jesus because he would have no human DNA or blood or anything that would genetically tie him to either his mother or father.

If, on the other hand, Mary was ovulating and the Holy Spirit used some God made sperm to fertilize the egg, then Mary's standing in sin might make a difference to some, although I don't think it does.

I remember the question coming up many years ago and I did some study on it and it seems that even if God fertilized one Mary's eggs, there is no blood passed from a pregnant woman to her fetus. The food and oxygen in the blood are transferred through the placenta. They seem to pass through the placenta without the two bloods ever mixing to withdraw the necessary oxygen and food for the fetus.

It's a really marvelous and wonderfully skillful and wise design that the two bloods would never mix. And why would that be of importance in the birth procedure?

God bless,
Ted
Click to expand...
I think IMHO, that you're thinking about this too much.
Does it matter HOW it happened?
God created the universe, can't He fertilize an egg however He would see fit?

It is, however, an interesting subject and I think that how a baby is formed is the biggest miracle of all.
We see it all the time and don't think of it as such.
 
The spiritual side of Mary would turn negate the fact that Jesus was of David as her father was the son of David and had to be her father ,the wife isn't listed in any genealogy of David as well that would be incestous .Mary was a cousin to Joseph but a second cousin irc ,and John the Baptist a cousin to them as well.

If you take out the father of Mary then the Davidic line is broken as God is the mother and father to Jesus in the flesh .
 
Mungo said:
My response was to wondering concerning what Catholic teaching is.
As such it does not require scripture.
Click to expand...
I'd like to say to miamited that mostly all doctrine of the CC is based on scripture.
We may not agree that any particular scripture is properly used, but the idea is there.
Also, teachings in the CCC are based on something...
many times it's the writings of the ECFs or even of a saint that received some kind of
revelation.

This could be disputed (but not today!)
however, just an explanation.

I've always disliked indulgences, ONLY THIS WEEK, I understood a reason why they might actually
work...Not getting into it. We all must make peace with what we hear and believe or do not believe.
 
Hi wondering
wondering said:
Does it mean anything to you that Mary was described as being full of grace?
Click to expand...

Mean? Like what? It means that Mary was full of God's grace...at the time the angel Gabriel came to visit her. In fact, depending on the translation, grace isn't even the word used “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

So in order for your 'speculation' to be accurate, you have to spend three whole paragraphs explaining how centuries of biblical theologians and scholars who have spend years poring over the Scriptures to translate them for the common man to read...were wrong!!!

KJ21
And the angel came in unto her and said, “Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.”
ASV
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.
AMP
And coming to her, the angel said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."


CSB
And the angel came to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you.”
CEB
When the angel came to her, he said, “Rejoice, favored one! The Lord is with you!”

CEV
The angel greeted Mary and said, “You are truly blessed! The Lord is with you.”
DARBY
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, [thou] favoured one! the Lord [is] with thee: [blessed art *thou* amongst women].
DLNT
And having come-in to her, he said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you”.
DRA
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
ERV
The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord is with you; you are very special to him.”
EHV
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.”
ESV
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”


GNV
And the Angel went in unto her, and said, Hail thou that art freely beloved: the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
GW
When the angel entered her home, he greeted her and said, “You are favored by the Lord! The Lord is with you.”
GNT
The angel came to her and said, “Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!”
HCSB
And the angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you.”
ICB
The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”
ISV
The angel came to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!”
PHILLIPS
Then, six months after Zacharias’ vision, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a Galilean town, Nazareth by name, to a young woman who was engaged to a man called Joseph. The girl’s name was Mary. The angel entered her room and said, “Greetings to you, Mary. O favoured one!—the Lord be with you!”
JUB
And the angel came in unto her and said, Hail, thou that art much graced, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.
KJV
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
AKJV
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
LEB
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
TLB
Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Congratulations, favored lady! The Lord is with you!”
MSG
In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to the Galilean village of Nazareth to a virgin engaged to be married to a man descended from David. His name was Joseph, and the virgin’s name, Mary. Upon entering, Gabriel greeted her: Good morning! You’re beautiful with God’s beauty, Beautiful inside and out! God be with you.
MEV
The angel came to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.”


NASB
And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
NASB1995
And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
NCB
The angel came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.”
NCV
The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”
NET
The angel came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one, the Lord is with you!”
NIRV
The angel greeted her and said, “The Lord has blessed you in a special way. He is with you.”
NIV
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

NKJV
And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
NLV
The angel came to her and said, “You are honored very much. You are a favored woman. The Lord is with you. *You are chosen from among many women.”
NLT
Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!”
NMB
And the angel went in to her and said, Hail, thou full of grace! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.

NRSVACE
And he came to her and said, ‘Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.’
NRSVCE
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
NRSVUE
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
NTE
‘Greetings, favoured one!’ said the angel when he arrived. ‘May the Lord be with you!’

RGT
And the angel went in to her, and said, “Hail, you who are freely beloved. The Lord is with you. You are blessed among women.”
RSV
And he came to her and said, “Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”




Nearly every english translation says 'highly favored' which Mary certainly was, and you and I were just discussing how we desired to be favored as God favored Mary. I have a problem that the consensus of bible translators over the centuries have been satisfied with highly favored, but the Catholic division of the faith has to make sure that it must say 'grace' because 'grace' means Mary was immaculately conceived. Really???? That's what grace means?

Is that intelligent enough for you?

God bless,
Ted
 
Hi wondering
wondering said:
I'd like to say to @miamited that mostly all doctrine of the CC is based on scripture.
Click to expand...
Listen, I get that you believe that. But the words of Scripture, by which the Catholic division of the faith justify 90% of their unbiblical doctrines is by quoting that, through the church, they have the authority to 'bind and loose' and to 'understand' the Scriptures as they see fit and that because they are the church, then they are always correct in this.

Naaaaaa!!!!!! That's what happened in Israel by the time Jesus got to the councils of the Jewish leadership and 'understanders' of God's word. They believed and told everyone that they had the authority to 'understand' God's

There's also no justification in God's word that any body of believers gets to determine what constitutes a valid marriage either. God said that there should be no man to tear asunder what God has joined together. But Catholic leadership believes that means that they get to determine 'who' God has joined together, as if there is a right way and a wrong way for two people to get married...in God's sight!

So much Catholic doctrine is highly disputable by people who are really very, very solid and firm in the teachings of the Scriptures. I'm one of them.

God bless,
Ted
 
miamited said:
Hi wondering

me too!

Fine! I'm all ears. What Scriptural support can you offer that she was really more special to God than any of these others? More importantly, what Scripture can you provide to prove that she was immaculately conceived, herself?


Well, only if the sin nature is only passed through the father as I propose, but I'm trying to get some understanding that this entire issue, beyond what God's word says about it, is pure speculation. Just like I responded to Mungo:

There's no Scriptural support that God formed Mary without any stain of sin. It just can't be supported by the Scriptures. That idea can only be supported if we trust that some group of folks who have studied God's word are actually understanding it correctly, but that's all speculation, too. We know that David tells us that we are all formed by God in our mother's womb, but that applies to all of us. That in the case of the forming of Mary that God somehow made here specially sinless, is pure speculation.

Right! And I suppose you just have a sample of God's DNA in your back pocket with which to compare? I'm saying, that if the implantation of the zygot is as I have proposed, then even if we had Mary and Joseph's DNA, it would not match either of them.


Well, you may see it that way, and certainly I do tend to be fussy when it's concerning God's word and the claims that people make about what it actually says over what somebody sitting on the toilet ruminating over it, says that it says. Look read it for yourself. Show me!! That's all I'm asking. Show me where the Scriptures say that "God formed Mary without original sin"! Show me that and I'm in.

God bless,
Ted
Click to expand...
I believe I answered the above in a post I just typed.
 
miamited said:
Hi wondering

Well, I can tell you that I'm too intelligent to believe what's trying to be taught here.

You're right, I'm too intelligent to believe what someone tells me is in the Scriptures, or is what the Scriptures mean to say with accompanying Scriptural support on the matter. There is no Scriptural support that Mary was any different, up until the day that the angel Gabriel visited her, than any other young woman living in all of Israel in that day.

God bless,
Ted
Click to expand...
I respect you for that.
I think when we wander from the scriptures, we tend to get lost.
However, it's the church that put the NT together.
At least we should hear what's to be said,
we can take it or leave it - it's not a soteriological matter.
We're just talking here...
It's an interesting conversation and it makes me think.
 
miamited said:
Hi wondering


Mean? Like what? It means that Mary was full of God's grace...at the time the angel Gabriel came to visit her. In fact, depending on the translation, grace isn't even the word used “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

So in order for your 'speculation' to be accurate, you have to spend three whole paragraphs explaining how centuries of biblical theologians and scholars who have spend years poring over the Scriptures to translate them for the common man to read...were wrong!!!

KJ21
And the angel came in unto her and said, “Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.”
ASV
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.
AMP
And coming to her, the angel said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."


CSB
And the angel came to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you.”
CEB
When the angel came to her, he said, “Rejoice, favored one! The Lord is with you!”
Click to expand...
EDIT
miamited said:
Nearly every english translation says 'highly favored' which Mary certainly was, and you and I were just discussing how we desired to be favored as God favored Mary. I have a problem that the consensus of bible translators over the centuries have been satisfied with highly favored, but the Catholic division of the faith has to make sure that it must say 'grace' because 'grace' means Mary was immaculately conceived. Really???? That's what grace means?

Is that intelligent enough for you?

God bless,
Ted
Click to expand...
Whoa!

But I already knew the above...
I read somewhere, sometime, that this is not correct,
however, in keeping with my general beliefs, I'd have to say that we should
trust the biblical scholars.
 
jasonc said:
Why not ?

Lol
Click to expand...
Hey, YOU live over there, not me!
Don't you know what's going on in colleges?
Transgender persons are demanding to be called THEY...
even if it's one person only.

I don't understand this...so don't ask me too much.
 
wondering said:
Hey, YOU live over there, not me!
Don't you know what's going on in colleges?
Transgender persons are demanding to be called THEY...
even if it's one person only.

I don't understand this...so don't ask me too much.
Click to expand...
Oh ,I know more then you think .

Let's just say I will be shifting retirement funds over wokeness .
 
miamited said:
Hi wondering

Listen, I get that you believe that. But the words of Scripture, by which the Catholic division of the faith justify 90% of their unbiblical doctrines is by quoting that, through the church, they have the authority to 'bind and loose' and to 'understand' the Scriptures as they see fit and that because they are the church, then they are always correct in this.

Naaaaaa!!!!!! That's what happened in Israel by the time Jesus got to the councils of the Jewish leadership and 'understanders' of God's word. They believed and told everyone that they had the authority to 'understand' God's

There's also no justification in God's word that any body of believers gets to determine what constitutes a valid marriage either. God said that there should be no man to tear asunder what God has joined together. But Catholic leadership believes that means that they get to determine 'who' God has joined together, as if there is a right way and a wrong way for two people to get married...in God's sight!

So much Catholic doctrine is highly disputable by people who are really very, very solid and firm in the teachings of the Scriptures. I'm one of them.

God bless,
Ted
Click to expand...
I have catholic friends over here.
Some of them are saved, and some - I do not beleive - are not. But who am I to say?

I also know some Catholic priests personally...more a few years ago, I'm feeling a little out of the loop right now.
They don't all believe what is in the CCC like they're supposed to.

But I'll tell you one thing, they basically agree on important doctrine and we Protestants are in a mess, as far as I'm concerned.

We should all have the same SOF, instead we have different churches, different movements, it's getting a little crazy.
And these independent churches...what happens when the Pastor gets sick or dies? They finish. Unless the last name is Osteen, of course. Or maybe Swaggart.

We can't even agree on OSAS and that's a very important topic.
I can say that the CC is more in line with biblical teaching that the Word of Faith Movement
or the Grace Movement or Faith Only Movement, to say nothing of the reformed, who insist on changing the nature of God.

Some of their doctrine is disputable.
Agreed.
But maybe we could start to treat them like brothers in Christ?
I've been on both sides - I tend to see the problems with both.
And the pluses...
 
Hi wondering

wondering said:
Does it mean anything to you that Mary was described as being full of grace? (Luke 1:30)
Click to expand...
You mean that? That's your Scriptural proof that Mary's mother was impregnated by the Holy Spirit as Jesus was?
wondering said:
Elizabeth called Mary blessed amount women. Luke 1:42
Click to expand...
or that? Your entire argument is based on the fact that there are references to Mary as being 'blessed and highly favored', or as you insist it must be read in order to support your doctrine on this, 'grace'? (I'm sorry, maybe it was Mungo that spent three paragraphs trying to show me how the translators for the last 2,000 years haven't been particularly careful in their translating work and that's why we don't understand that Mary's mom was impregnated byh the Holy Spirit.

Moses had a sinful nature. Yes he did. As does everyone born of woman through man. Even Mary!
wondering said:
Surely we don't believe all the occupants of the Hall of Faith were born miraculously?
Click to expand...
I don't think I inferred that all the occupants of the Hall of Faith were born miraculously, but the proof you're using that Mary was would apply to most of them. John the Baptist was to be filled with God's Holy Spirit from birth. Now there's one of the faithful servants of God that we know, yes the bible tells us so, that he was born with the Holy Spirit. But even that doesn't mean that his mother was born of a virgin.

Anyway, look, I don't want to tear down anyone's faith unless it's based on untrue things about God and His word. In this matter, I believe that to be the case.

Now the facts are out there. The explanation has been made. Let's get out the Scriptures, not the bulls and Didaches and hymns and other such extrabiblical writings and see if God's word, through His Holy Spirit does his job.
wondering said:
There is none righteous, no not one.
Click to expand...
Right! So not even Mary is not righteous. She is after all included in the 'none', right?

God bless,
Ted
 
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