In Christianity, Is anybody ever wrong?

[Dorothy Mae]

Cnkw3 did answer your question about how he was saved at the end of his post #138. Maybe it wasn't the answer you were looking for, but I see that he answered sufficiently.

Actually I ask how God communicated to him that he was saved. He claims it’s God who decides. Since he obviously thinks he’s saved, I asked how God communicated this to him since He is the only one to make that determination. How was God’s decision communicated to Him, was my question. This I did not see.

You need to read my question again. It might not be the question you wanted asked.

 

[for_his_glory]

Actually I ask how God communicated to him that he was saved. He claims it’s God who decides. Since he obviously thinks he’s saved, I asked how God communicated this to him since He is the only one to make that determination. How was God’s decision communicated to Him, was my question. This I did not see.

You need to read my question again. It might not be the question you wanted asked.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

In order to be saved in the end we must first be one of Christ own by repenting and being baptized in Christ baptism of receiving the Holy Spirit, Mark 1:8; Acts 1:5 as this was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:1-4. It doesn't just stop there as we need to obey His commands as we learn of His ways, Colossians 3:1-4, in order to be obedient to God. This is working out our salvation in Christ.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

In order to be saved in the end we must first be one of Christ own by repenting and being baptized in Christ baptism of receiving the Holy Spirit, Mark 1:8; Acts 1:5 as this was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:1-4. It doesn't just stop there as we need to obey His commands as we learn of His ways, Colossians 3:1-4, in order to be obedient to God. This is working out our salvation in Christ.

I appreciate your trying to
help but I asked the poster how God communicated to him that he was saved. God. He said God didn’t promise anyone else what he was promised which lets out the scriptures which are promises to many. He says feelings don’t count. So I assume he didn’t feel
saved. How did he know that God had saved him since he believes God alone decides this? We have no decision in the matter, it seems.

 

[Edward]

Actually I ask how God communicated to him that he was saved. He claims it’s God who decides. Since he obviously thinks he’s saved, I asked how God communicated this to him since He is the only one to make that determination. How was God’s decision communicated to Him, was my question. This I did not see.

I can tell you how God communicated it to me. It is a quickening of the spirit. Always it is acoompanied by having peace in my spirit. It wasn't always like that, but it is now. That's all I know about that.

Also, according to my understanding, you can put your name in the place of scripture all over the place. I do it all the time with Psalm 91. Well, all except the last couple/few verses where it's obviously God talking about Himself. But yes, my name fits fine in John 3:16. It is not inappropriate to do this. That Bible is written to you speciffically. And to me speciffically. That's how it is. The Apostles used to pray scripture many times. God loves it when you pray His own word to Him, and even more when you see that it is personalized between you and Him..

And Him and me!

 

[God Is My Judge]

Yes. It was prophecy for Israel who was in captivity. The Lord promised to bring them out of captivity and back into their land.
Vs 24. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
This prophecy was fulfilled.

For their future. not yours.

Everything you just mentioned is in the OT not the new. So that is what I mean by ”sprinkling” not being a NT doctrine.


Again. Heb 9 was describing what took place under the old law. That law has been removed and replaced.

Nothing you just posted has anything to do with sprinkling as the NT mode of baptism. The baptism into Moses was an immersion. Walls of water on both side with clouds of water above. They were completely covered by water as they walked through the Red Sea on dry ground. That is the picture he is painting. All in the OT.
In the NT it is your heart that is sprinkled but your body is washed.
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Hebrews 10:22
Why is it pure water? Because it is connected with the blood of Jesus.

John the Baptist came baptizing and it was an immersion. He baptized where there was “much water”. Jesus went down into the water and came up out of it. He was immersed. The Eunuch in Acts 8 went down into the water with Philip. NT baptism is described in Rom 6 as being buried with Christ. Planted! Being raised with him. This is all describing an immersion. Not sprinkling.
This is what happens when people cling to the OT for their doctrine. But Hebrews specifically states…..
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Hebrews 10:9

Ok thanks for sharing.

 

[God Is My Judge]

For their future. not yours.

Two wrong assumptions here on your part. 1. You assume I am not Hebrew, 2. you assume God shows partiality.
Genesis 17:4-9 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

The MANY Nations are clearly displayed in Joseph's coat of many colors. Joseph as an architype of who was to come, shows the treatment Christ would receive from His own kin and how He would be honored among all the nations of the world. And the 12 Tribes are jealous of that honor the Father laid upon Christ concerning how wonderfully he has been honored among the gentile nations.
Romans 11:
The Ingrafting of the Gentiles
…13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?…
Romans 10:9
But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”
Acts 5:17
But the high priest rose up, along with all his associates (that is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy.
Acts 13:45
But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
Acts 17:5
But the Jews, becoming jealous and taking along some wicked men from the market place, formed a mob and set the city in an uproar; and attacking the house of Jason, they were seeking to bring them out to the people.

Sounds like that architype- Joseph's experience, transcends time as is the mode of architype.

Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same, My name shall be great among the Gentiles. And in every place incense shall be offered unto My name, and a pure offering; for My name shall be great among the heathen,” saith the Lord of hosts.

Gentile means heathen and before receiving the Messiah it was right to call them that. This will lead to the mystery concerning Abraham who was the first to be called -Hebrew. Before that what was he? Hence , Hebrew means- Traversed One. Meaning one who comes from one side of things to the other. Abraham traversed the Jordan ( which means to descend). As the Word from God descended upon Abram he was changed being called a father by God . Another architectonic statement concerning his delivery of a covenant which would not only be for the Hebrew but for all nations . For there is but One God and He created all.
Moving forward: Romans 9:
The Calling of the Gentiles
…25As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,” 26and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” 27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.…

So there you go concerning the Gentile and only a remnant of the 12 Tribes of Israel will be saved to boot!
A Gentile who has come from one side of things to the other is no longer a Gentile but a Hebrew . Grafting in means you receive the same fruits and nourishment from the to roots an original Tree. Maybe you know a little something about gardening? I know this could end up an endless roller coaster of pretexting Context and going back and forth tit-for-tat when the obvious is clear.

Titus 3:
Heirs of Grace

1Remind the believers to submit to rulers and authorities, to be obedient and ready for every good work, 2to malign no one, and to be peaceable and gentle, showing full consideration to everyone.

3For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, misled, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures—living in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life. 8This saying is trustworthy. And I want you to emphasize these things, so that those who have believed God will take care to devote themselves to good deeds. These things are excellent and profitable for the people.

Avoid Divisions

9But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the law, because these things are pointless and worthless.

10Reject a divisive man after a first and second admonition, 11knowing that such a man is corrupt and sinful; he is self-condemned.

I have no desire to go against this. Peace.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I can tell you how God communicated it to me. It is a quickening of the spirit. Always it is acoompanied by having peace in my spirit. It wasn't always like that, but it is now. That's all I know about that.

Also, according to my understanding, you can put your name in the place of scripture all over the place. I do it all the time with Psalm 91. Well, all except the last couple/few verses where it's obviously God talking about Himself. But yes, my name fits fine in John 3:16. It is not inappropriate to do this. That Bible is written to you speciffically. And to me speciffically. That's how it is. The Apostles used to pray scripture many times. God loves it when you pray His own word to Him, and even more when you see that it is personalized between you and Him..

And Him and me!

Cnkw3 said those feelings don’t count. That’s why I asked him that question.

You can certainly insert your name into any verse you like, a kind of buffet selecting the verses you like. You can probably comfort yourself too.

Don’t kid yourself that any author of the Bible did this though. They didn’t insert their names into scriptures they liked.

That is also likely to be presumption, assuming you can decide what God promises you personally.

I don’t suppose anyone inserts their name into “depart from me, xxxx, I never knew you” though.

When all is said and done I’ll ask
how it went. Did God jump through the scriptural hoops set up for Him as demanded? I know that’s negatively worded but it could be so described unless you want to defend the practice.

 

[for_his_glory]

I appreciate your trying to
help but I asked the poster how God communicated to him that he was saved. God. He said God didn’t promise anyone else what he was promised which lets out the scriptures which are promises to many. He says feelings don’t count. So I assume he didn’t feel
saved. How did he know that God had saved him since he believes God alone decides this? We have no decision in the matter, it seems.

These are opened discussions and even if a questioned is asked to another, anyone can still reply to it, but to keep the peace with you I will bow out of your question.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

These are opened discussions and even if a questioned is asked to another, anyone can still reply to it, but to keep the peace with you I will bow out of your question.

You’re not answering the question. I asked how He knew. So thanks.

 

[Edward]

Cnkw3 said those feelings don’t count. That’s why I asked him that question.

You can certainly insert your name into any verse you like, a kind of buffet selecting the verses you like. You can probably comfort yourself too.

Don’t kid yourself that any author of the Bible did this though. They didn’t insert their names into scriptures they liked.

That is also likely to be presumption, assuming you can decide what God promises you personally.

I don’t suppose anyone inserts their name into “depart from me, xxxx, I never knew you” though.

When all is said and done I’ll ask
how it went. Did God jump through the scriptural hoops set up for Him as demanded? I know that’s negatively worded but it could be so described unless you want to defend the practice.

Scriptural hoops that we set up? He wrote the book, not me!

It's not a feeling. It is many times described as a feeling, something that stirs us inside. But it's not like feelings, it's more of a perception a perceiving that...something is there. But you are right, it's not a feeling. It's different. It's spiritual in nature.

 

[Cnkw3]

“Who was declared saved” means what scripture says xzy is now saved. Is there a single scripture that says anyone is already saved? That was my obvious question. I wasn’t asking what scriptures PROMISE salvation in the future if you do XYZ which is known by all Christians.

When Jesus gave the great commission he had to make a promise, his NT doctrine had not been taught yet so there is no way he could say…..so and so is “already saved”. His NT gospel had not been preached yet. But after Acts 2 we find many people that followed his prescribed pattern which means they are saved.

That is known by all Christians,

obviously not

but none of that is what I asked for. I didn’t ask for promises of FUTURE salvation.

you asked….”who” was declared saved. And I told you. I quoted the first part of MK 16:16. He (insert name) that believes and is baptized shall be saved. But now I need to quote the second part. He (insert name) that doesn’t believe will be damned. You fall under that second part. Everything about you right now highlights what it means to “not believe” which, according to the promise (i know you don’t like promises) of Jesus leads to only one end.

No, I am asking if anyone in the whole of the New Testament had your theology in mind.

first of all, its not my theology. I only showed what Jesus commanded and promised. If i made something up you are free to show it to me. But you know you wont. The answer is, as you read the book of acts….ALL preached and taught the “theology” of Jesus. The same gospel was taught through out which means what? They were saved.

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Acts 15:7-11
This is Peter telling how gentiles heard the gospel and at the end he called them “saved”. What did Cornelius do to be considered “saved” by Peter? He was told to send for a preacher. He had an experience on his bed! Was he declared saved at that point? NO! A preacher came and preached the gospel. Mk 16:15. He then believed and was baptized in water (Mk 16:16) which means??????? Yes! HE WAS SAVED! As confirmed by Peter in Acts 15.

It’s a kind of legal read the scripture where you fill in your name as you like and all the attached promises are yours in a legal kind of manner.

You are the first “christian” i have come across that does not believe they can add their name to Jn 3:16. For God so loved the world (Just not Dorothy) that he gave his only begotten son.

Did anyone writing the NT say that if themselves or another that they fulfilled those requirements and are therefore saved?

Yes. Cornelius. i just showed it above. I guess you didnt like my example of the Jailor in Acts 16. That’s right the text said…that he had “believed” with all his household. It didnt use the word saved so I guess under the theology of Dorothy he was not saved. That promise of Paul in vs 31 meant nothing.
This principle can be used in other areas too.
Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.
Acts 27:31
This is a promise of physical salvation in a shipwreck. Since promises hold no weight I guess we can conclude they must have all perished? I take the position that IF they met the conditions of the above promise these people would be saved from death. Guess what? When you read further you find they all survived! What do you know…Meeting the conditions of a promise resulted in the promise being fulfilled.
Dorothy. The ball is in your court. It is up to you to show me ONE person that was EVER declared saved under the new covenant (either by promise or by name) who “prayed” for salvation or had some “experience” and then declared saved or “promised” to be saved. You cant even find a “promise“ of salvation for the doctrine you are promoting right now.

 

[Cnkw3]

You’re not answering the question. I asked how He knew. So thanks.

I told you. I did what Jesus prescribed and I believe in his promise of salvation when his conditions are met. It must be a lonely existence to not believe in and feel that you can rely on the promises of God? OOpps! I used the word ”feel”. How could I have made such a mistake. The fact is and I believe I told you this in our private message that I don’t discount feelings. The only feelings that matter are the ones based in truth. These salvation bed and car experiences are not based in truth so therefore they mean nothing.

 

[Cnkw3]

Actually I ask how God communicated to him that he was saved. He claims it’s God who decides. Since he obviously thinks he’s saved, I asked how God communicated this to him since He is the only one to make that determination. How was God’s decision communicated to Him, was my question. This I did not see.

You need to read my question again. It might not be the question you wanted asked.

Answered many times now and explained thoroughly.
Here’s Paul…
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18
I’m sorry you don’t like the preaching that I have presented so far, I can tell you think it is foolishness. But Paul just declared, past tense, that he and the church at Corinth are SAVED. My guess is….since he thinks he and Corinth are saved he must have done what the Lord prescribed? How does he know he’s saved? Let’s look.
What did Paul do? He heard, believed, repented, confessed, and was baptized in water. This = saved
What did the Corinthians do?
And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Acts 18:8
They HEARD, BELIEVED and were BAPTIZED! Must mean they are “saved”. Why? Because Jesus promised…..
He that believes and is baptized shall be SAVED! That is how Paul can, past tense, declare them SAVED! It is based on truth and not “feelings” and ”experience”.
Its amazing how all of these conversions follow the same pattern. But patterns and promises don’t matter do they?

 

[Edward]

I don't understand why people would think that anyone needs to be declared saved by God? Scripture doesn't say this. Remember the gentile woman who came to Jesus and said, help me Lord and heal my daughter...and Jesus told her, I came for the lost sheep of Israel, not for the dog gentiles (Basically)?? The promise to the gentiles had not been declared yet!

So the woman says, yeah but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the table...!!

That was a great faith, Jesus said, so he did as she desired to be done and healed her daughter. I doubt this woman was even saved before she did that! She reached into the future and grabbed the coming promise to the gentiles...

So it is by faith that we are saved and not by declaration.

Matthew 15:
21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

23 But He answered her not a word.

And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”

24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”

27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.../

 

[Cnkw3]

How did he know that God had saved him since he believes God alone decides this? We have no decision in the matter, it seems.

You are correct! We have no decision in the matter on HOW one is saved. We dont get to decide…I will do this or that and I will be saved. NO! God is the only one that decides what man must do to be saved. And we MUST meet his conditions and ONLY his in order to be saved. It doesn’t matter what any preacher like Billy Graham or anyone else tells you. If it doesn’t match word for word what God has prescribed then you can know it wont save. There is no “sinners prayer” in the NT. Therefore I know that doctrine wont save anybody.

 

[Cnkw3]

Don’t kid yourself that any author of the Bible did this though. They didn’t insert their names into scriptures they liked.

John did.
We love him, because he first loved us.
1 John 4:19
What’s this “us” business. Does John think that….For God so loved (john) that he gave his only begotten son. How could he be so bold as to insert his name in that passage? I wish you would have been around 2000 years ago to set him straight.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Answered many times now and explained thoroughly.
Here’s Paul…
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18
I’m sorry you don’t like the preaching that I have presented so far, I can tell you think it is foolishness. But Paul just declared, past tense, that he and the church at Corinth are SAVED. My guess is….since he thinks he and Corinth are saved he must have done what the Lord prescribed? How does he know he’s saved? Let’s look.
What did Paul do? He heard, believed, repented, confessed, and was baptized in water. This = saved
What did the Corinthians do?
And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Acts 18:8
They HEARD, BELIEVED and were BAPTIZED! Must mean they are “saved”. Why? Because Jesus promised…..
He that believes and is baptized shall be SAVED! That is how Paul can, past tense, declare them SAVED! It is based on truth and not “feelings” and ”experience”.
Its amazing how all of these conversions follow the same pattern. But patterns and promises don’t matter do they?

Let’s move on. I asked for persons who believe as you do in the NT and you give me the “rules” as you see them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

John did.
We love him, because he first loved us.
1 John 4:19
What’s this “us” business. Does John think that….For God so loved (john) that he gave his only begotten son. How could he be so bold as to insert his name in that passage? I wish you would have been around 2000 years ago to set him straight.

John didn’t write “me” so your point is not proven.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I told you. I did what Jesus prescribed and I believe in his promise of salvation when his conditions are met. It must be a lonely existence to not believe in and feel that you can rely on the promises of God? OOpps! I used the word ”feel”. How could I have made such a mistake. The fact is and I believe I told you this in our private message that I don’t discount feelings. The only feelings that matter are the ones based in truth. These salvation bed and car experiences are not based in truth so therefore they mean nothing.

I have to admit, you’re the first person I’ve ever met who followed a procedure and then declared themselves saved. That is new.

 

[Cnkw3]

I don’t suppose anyone inserts their name into “depart from me, xxxx, I never knew you” though.

Haha. This is a good one..
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:23
You might not add your name there but I can promise you one day….God will add peoples name there.
And who will it be….
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:22
Who will it be? All the people that ‘FELT” like they were saved. They did a bunch of stuff they thought was right but in the end their feelings will lead to damnation.
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Proverbs 14:12
What does “seemeth“ mean? It means you ”felt” like you were right. But God says….That way leads to death.
Do you still want to argue for ”feelings” and “experience” as a way to confirm salvation? Good luck with that!