In Christianity, Is anybody ever wrong?

[christian1724]

Now you explain to me why these people get to have their own experience that is contrary to the word of God (which you said is truth) and I am supposed to just except that and move on.

Where have I told you that you "just have to accept" anything. The only forceful acceptance I've witnessed involving you is you telling people not to accept their own private experiences because they are are not in scripture.

Please show me in scripture where you personally were selected to question the leading, by the Spirit, of anyone.

 

[eddif]

What makes you think that you know that?

I'm drawn to understand that riddle. Aren't you?
Why did you not offer any explanation of that chapter. Didn't you indicate that all Truth has already been plainly set before us? Didn't you suggest that to ask for understanding is unnecessary, even as to invite the devil in? I hope you weren't raised in that manner.

Ezekiel 17. Explanation. Please.
Failing that, please quit implying that there is nothing else to for me to learn because it is obvious to me that there is, and Luke 11 instructs me on how I might gain that understanding.

I do not know your background but I have a hint at your spirit.
Romans 1:20 kjv
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, evenhis eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So I am supplying you with a plant growth link. All the tree information in Ezekiel 17 can be understood much better ( IMHO based on the little I know about apical dominance). This has to do with growth centers at branch ends and the tip top of a tree, and age stages. I just cut down a storm damaged red oak that had some of the characteristics listed in one part of 17.
No telling what comments will be from others.

https://bsapubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2307/2446149

I will try and stick with you on this.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

While supposed theology can be terribly warped, some lessons in plants and human anatomy can still be seen. However, GMO genetic work is rapidly confusing even that. Living where sunshine has to be piped in has its advantages. The OP cries out for creation help.

eddif

 

[Cnkw3]

Do you have a hard time with comprehension? I did not mock relying on the Bible, I lifted it up! And my point was that while Logos is the primary instructions for us, that there is a thing called Rhemas. Which I asked about and you totally dodged and act like you didn't read that.

It’s because I don’t know what you are trying to say about “rhemas”. That we can only learn from an audible spoken word? If so, I don’t agree.

So exactly what are you saying?
That satan kept me from being arrested that day?

I don’t know why the cops were chasing you but where i live that is generally a bad thing

That satan, since he is not a man, can pluck you out of the Lord God Almighty's hand?

The primary message from Jn 10-27,28 is that IF you are one of His sheep, you hear him AND follow him which mens to remain faithful then you are right, not even Satan can snatch them away. BUT, if you stop following then yes you can be snatched. There are many passages that support this teaching throughout the NT.

That satan is stronger than God?

No he isn’t.

That you can not recognize or trust the Lord's voice?

I do not trust little voices in my head. The only “lords voice” i trust is the one that comes off the pages of the Bible and ONLY the Bible.

That you wouldn't know the Lord if He walked up in your face?

I don’t know what he looks like. Neither do you.

That there is no way that I can truthfully know the Lord's voice when I hear it?

not if its little voices running through your head.

 

[Cnkw3]

So now you are saying that there is no Holy Spirit?

No. Never said that.

No indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us?
...and you're a Christian.

I do believe that the Spirit indwells the christian. I believe that today he does it through his word. I do not believe in a literal, bodily indwelling of the Spirit. I would appeal to passages like..
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Ephesians 5:18-19
then look at a parallel passage…
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Colossians 3:16
In one passage we are instructed to be filled with the Spirit. In the parallel passage we are instructed to let the word of Christ dwell in us. To be filled with the Spirit is to be filled with the word that Spirit has given us. What is the sword of the Spirit? The word of God.

 

[Cnkw3]

I guess you aren't going to answer my post to you?
Too many questions for you?
Too many good questions?
Answer me.

I have a job.

 

[Cnkw3]

I'll kindly do that if you will direct quote me where I stated that books needed to be included or excluded.

You said this….
“Did the mind of Christ canonize some books and then later remove them? Help me out here.”
I had said that we are to have the mind of Christ which can only be found in the Bible and then you made the strange statement above. I took this as you having doubts about the Bible we have which would leave us unable to have the mind of Christ. If you dont like that then don’t make vague, strange statements.

 

[christian1724]

I don't know about any other threads in the future, but I think my interpretation was right on target, thanks be to God.

Yes, I agree on the green and dry cedars/trees as being symbols for the house of Israel (which disappeared into Assyrian captivity many years before) and the remnant of Judah in Jerusalem. To add to that, I am persuaded that the tender twigs from the topmost portion of the one cedar ( Ezekiel 17:22 ) are representative of 'daughters of the king' who being accompanied/led by Jeremiah disappeared from history (to be replanted on the mountain height of Israel?). according to the directive assigned to Jeremiah before he was even formed in the womb.

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah 1:10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

Praise God for His Truth and His Leading.

 

[Cnkw3]

Is everyone drawn to hear and learn the Truth? Why not?

Yes. Those that come to God will do so through the word. This is why there is a commission to GO and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved and he that believes not shall be damned. How does anyone learn how to obey the gospel without learning the word.
Paul said…
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Romans 10:13-16
Nobody can ”call on the name of the Lord” (therefore no salvation) outside of this divinely established pattern. There is teaching hearing believing and then calling. (Which isn’t prayer). You need one before the other.

What gives a person the ability to hear and learn?

preaching and a will to do so.

What causes a person to be drawn to that which needs to be heard and learned?

it could be many things. Family, friends, TV, radio, a curiosity about spiritual things, tired of their sin, etc

Can a person receive that drawing who doesn't already have it?

Dont quite understand this one. The passage says…
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
John 6:45
Anybody that wants to come to the father MUST come through hearing and learning first.

Can a person lose that drawing?

Dont know i like the way this is phrased but I would reply with….read the parable of the sower. The seed (which is the word of God) is sown and depending on what kind of heart it landed on determines if it bore fruit or not. Some took it in and fruit started to grow but was then choked out because of the cares of this world. So yes people can hear and learn, be drawn to God but then later on be overtaken with the world.

 

[christian1724]

You said this….
“Did the mind of Christ canonize some books and then later remove them? Help me out here.”
I had said that we are to have the mind of Christ which can only be found in the Bible and then you made the strange statement above. I took this as you having doubts about the Bible we have which would leave us unable to have the mind of Christ. If you dont like that then don’t make vague, strange statements.

"I took this as..." is not a direct quote from me. I respectfully asked you for a direct quote from me. In fact it's proof that you just filled in the blanks without thoughtful consideration. That's alright, I forgive that since I have probably been guilty of that myself. What you 'take as meaning' is beyond my control. You could just as easy asked me if that was what I meant, rather than just assuming you know what I think and believe. You seem to have developed a habit of that.

 

[Cnkw3]

I have seen people be as divinely inspired as Paul was. That is, the Spirit spoke to them the same as He spoke to Paul. The question for believers isn’t if but what must I do to be one of these God speaks to.

If you say so.

Before one becomes a believers they’re an atheist (unbeliever.)

No. An atheist is one who doesn’t believe in God. There are many who believe in God but are not born again Christians. I have a few in my family. They believe in God but they don’t care to obey the gospel.

So you think you can read words on a page and then say you are saved based on those words with no real inner action on your part like a law book? The testimonies of everyone who is clearly among the saved in the Bible had inner responses.

Yes. The ONLY way you know you are one of the saved is to do the EXACT same thing that people in the early church did who were declared saved. You don’t get to decide if you are saved or not. It is God who does that. And he does that after you have done what he has commanded in his word. Acts 2:47
So, the person I described having the bedtime salvation experience isn’t saved because that is not what Jesus commanded them to do in order to be saved. He told the apostles to go preach the gospel to every creature; He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Was the person having their experience at night on the bed baptized? No. Then they are still in their sins. Not saved.

 

[Cnkw3]

What makes you think that you know that?

so you are apart of the house of Israel 2600 years ago? Well ok then

I'm drawn to understand that riddle. Aren't you?
Why did you not offer any explanation of that chapter.

I feel you are playing games but ill play along for a while. The book of Ezekiel is during Israels period of captivity. In chapter 17 The eagle, which is the Babylonian King came to Lebanon (Jerusalem) and took its king and princes identified as top of tree and branches. That happened. Zedekiah was left in place in Jerusalem. The second Eagle which is the King of Egypt is brought into the picture because Zedekiah, instead of repenting and turning to God instead turned for help to the king of Egypt. Did it work? No. At the end of the chapter we find the most important part. God said he would set up his own lofty top or king and he would plant it on a high and lofty mountain in Israel. This I believe is a direct prophecy of Christ and his Church (kingdom) which saw its fulfillment on Pentecost in Acts 2. This prophecy is similar to Dan 2.

Didn't you indicate that all Truth has already been plainly set before us? Didn't you suggest that to ask for understanding is unnecessary, even as to invite the devil in? I hope you weren't raised in that manner.

Dont think i said that In that way. But yes ALL TRUTH is found in the Bible. Jn 17:17.
It is necessary to ask for understanding and wisdom. But you will only know you are getting it through confirmation in the Bible and not some random voice in your head telling you things contrary to sound doctrine.

Ezekiel 17. Explanation. Please.
Failing that, please quit implying that there is nothing else to for me to learn because it is obvious to me that there is, and Luke 11 instructs me on how I might gain that understanding.

I would NEVER tell anyone there is nothing else to learn. It is a life long pursuit. No body has all the answers and understanding of the Bible. There are many hard passages to understand, but some of them especially the ones pertaining to becoming a Christian are extremely easy to understand.

 

[Cnkw3]

Thank You! I consider that a thoughtful (considered) comment. I don't necessarily agree with your assessment but I appreciate it.

Do you differentiate between between "Jews" and "Israelites" then?

No. They are all from Israel. it is my understanding that “Jew” was a term to describe someone from the tribe of Judah and then through time it just came to symbolize everyone from the nation of Israel.

 

[Cnkw3]

Once again I would to make clear that in no way am I disparaging the written Word of God. My point is that there are Rhemas also! You do not seem to put much stock in Rhemas. They probably happen to you and you don't even know it!Tell me, have you ever been reading the Bible, and a verse or a passage just speaks to your heart and your situation so clearly that it's like you have an ephiphiny? That's God talking to your heart. That is receiving a Rhema.

Now this I can agree with. This happens to me all the time. But this only happens because I have studied Gods word. The more I study the More this happens. This is in no way God, literally, talking directly to me. It is the same as I have stated this whole time. The Spirit dwells in us through his word. And it dont come to me directly in some miraculous way. The apostles were told that they would receive the Spirit and they would have miraculous memory of the word. I don’t have it and neither do you.

The voices I hear told me that He desires for all of us to be able to hear His still small voice, and instantly obey. (direct quote).

Do you think that your imagination, your intuition, and your conscience are imaginary things to be dismissed??
These things are some of your spiritual senses my friend. Ponder that one. (I know, you wanna call BS, but how do you really know?-You don't) So it could be true. I think it is. Your conscience always tells you the right thing to do. Listen to him.

Your conscience is only as good as the information you have supplied it.
Paul said…
Acts 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
This would include the entire time he was persecuting Christians. His conscience told him it was ok for him to do this. Was it right? NO! Why? Because he was following bad information given to him by religious people. Just because you receive info from a “pastor” “preacher” ”man of God” Doesn’t mean it is true and can be relied upon.

 

[Edward]

It’s because I don’t know what you are trying to say about “rhemas”. That we can only learn from an audible spoken word? If so, I don’t agree.

I need you to understand that I am in no way saying that we can "only" learn from an audible source.

I need you to understand that I have nothing against the Written Word! The Written word, our scriptures are absolutely (almost) everything to us. The scriptures are God's primary way to teach us and to talk to us through. It is our instruction manual to life here on this planet.

I need you to understand that I do not seek to put any limitations whatsoever upon the scriptures!

I am saying...that with all of the written scriptures excellance to us in teaching us about God (through His Holy Spirit), that there is even more goodness beyond that in the fact that our Almighty Lord...has a voice.

It's not that that He doesn't talk to you, it's that, you can not hear Him. Because you've never tried.

Has the Lord ever spoken to you through the scriptures?
Have you ever had a question in mind and picked up the bible with the thought of perhaps looking it up to see what scripture says about it...and the Bible opens to the exact page where your answer is? (That is the Lord talking to you!). I've had that happen several times.

One time I hadn't read in awhile and I had been praying about a question to the Lord, and for about two weeks and He was just silent about it. He wouldn't say anything. So I just keep praying. And one day, I'm like, hmm I should read for a bit and I opened the Bible...and it flipped open to the exact page and my eyes were drawn right to the exact verses which answered my question that I had been praying about for so long, there it was. (That's a Rhema from God. I received my Rhema. I received a word from God.)

Question:
Do you pay any attention to the voices in your head?
Are there different voices that you hear? (I think I have identified three!)

I know this sounds weird, hearing voices and all but it's not. Think about it. Can you "hear" your thinking voice? I can. That's my carnal mind. He doubts everything and is a cocky little cuss.

Then there's #2, my conscience. (Which I *think* is probably my spirit) Because our spirit has the Holy Spirit bear witness to our spirit and talks with him. Our spirit is in direct contact with God, so he always knows what the right thing to do is, and he sounds like my conscience and says, man don't do that...Right? Doesn't your conscience work that way too?

And I think the 3rd voice within me is the Lord Himself. Holy Spirit maybe, I dunno. All I know is it seems like He likes to talk more and more lately.
The Lord has a certain way of speaking that...I do not. He is mor eeloquent than I am by far. I don't even think in that vocabulary!

I didn't start trying to differentiate the different voices in my head until awhile ago now, and it was a little confusing at first and my carnal mind kept wanting to say, all of it is your own thoughts boy don't be stupid! But I kept trying anyway. And I started noticing things. Slight differences in speech patterns and stuff.

Bottom line is probably that we should pay attention to the spiritual realm like scripture instructs us to and listen to your conscience or your spirit and do what they say always. Then they make the decisions and not the carnal flesh mind. I guess you would call that...being led by the spirit.

 

[Cnkw3]

That is an interesting one and I've chased interests in it before.

You say "The one we should be the most interested in is this one…".
Well, if what you say is true then why didn't Jacob just say, "Look, I'm gonna skip the blessings for all you other kids and just get to the interesting one. Judah is a lions..."?
No sir, I find it all interesting.
Your suggestion(?) that I should just forget Joseph and move on to the important stuff only serves to devalue those parts of scripture that don't currently interest you personally. Why did he devote a whole chapter (Genesis 48) to passing the birthright on to Joseph (along with an eye-opening sight into the future of his children Genesis 49:22 ). Which brings me to an interesting note in your comment, namely this one - " ... if he wasn’t inspired of God." Wasn't he inspired when he wrote about Joseph's future? Maybe it was just you who wasn't inspired (yet)?

I think I said that Jacob was inspired of God. That is how he came to prophesy of the coming Messiah through Judah.
I said….”THE MOST interested in”. At no time did I say…forget the rest. If I did then you can show it to me and I will apologize. But a lot of those details, while interesting have no bearing on our standing with God today.

 

[Cnkw3]

Good heavens, is somebody asleep at the wheel here? I'm going to ask you to quote where I said that was my experience.

I used the words IF. That means it may or may not have happened like this. All you have to say is….that’s not me.

 

[Edward]

I don’t know why the cops were chasing you but where i live that is generally a bad thing

It's a bad thing where I'm from also, Brother.
It's kind of a long story but the gist of it is that, Yes 3 cop cars were looking for me, and if they would have found me, I would have been arrested. That would have been huge for me! I've never done any time, lol. I worked my entire life. I own some handcuffs, but I don't wear them! Lol. I was hurt so prolly didn't step outside a 6 or 8 block radius from my house. And they was searching for me for close to an hour.
(It was So Cool! I walked right through through their midst. I was hid under the feathers of God's wings and they couldn't see me!!! Praise the Lord!!!! After 45 minutes or an hour the voice said, ok it's safe to go back home now....!! So I did!.

 

[Cnkw3]

Where have I told you that you "just have to accept" anything. The only forceful acceptance I've witnessed involving you is you telling people not to accept their own private experiences because they are are not in scripture.

Yes. I am just trying to help them follow truth and not feelings. Feelings don’t validate anything. Let’s go back to the Joseph story you really like. When the brothers soaked his coat in blood and gave it to their father and told him that Joseph was dead; how did he react? He was devastated, heartbroken, had a very strong emotional experience because he felt like his beloved son was dead. Was his feelings right? NO! Why? Because his feelings weren’t based on truth. If someone has that strong saved feeling on their bed; does it make it right? NO! Why? Because its not based on truth.

Please show me in scripture where you personally were selected to question the leading, by the Spirit, of anyone.

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:21

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1

 

[Edward]

Your conscience is only as good as the information you have supplied it.

Generally speaking.
Reminds me of that Cherokee Proverb of the two wolves.
We all have two wolves within us, a good wolf and a bad wolf, and they constantly fight. Wich one wins Grandpa?
The one you feed more.

Philippians 4:8
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.../

2 Corinthians 10:5
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;.../

Scripture tells us exactly what to do. Think good thoughts and about heavenly things and good things, and to take evil thoughts captive to the obediance of Christ, and cast those thoughts out of your mind.

He gave us these instructions because He knows that what we think about is what we dwell on, and what we dwell on we connect with, and what we connect with manifests to us as reality.

So my dad was right, get yur mind out of the gutter and look up. Look up, for our redemption draweth nigh!