In Christianity, Is anybody ever wrong?

[Edward]

Now this I can agree with. This happens to me all the time. But this only happens because I have studied Gods word. The more I study the More this happens. This is in no way God, literally, talking directly to me. It is the same as I have stated this whole time.

Ok! You do know what Rhema's are because they do happen to you. And you're exactly right, the more you study, the more it happens!

But surely you jest that this is not literally God, because it is.
It is God the Holy Spirit.

John 16:7, 12-15
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you...

...12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.../


(It's really the entire chapter of John 16). The Holy Spirit is the Comforter. It is HS job to lead us into all truth (I bolded it). And I think His favorite way to work with us is through the Book of Truth, the Bible! You bring yourself into the Lord's presence when you read a Bible.

Think about it, we are saved. Born again. In Christ. Christ in us. The Holy Spirit's job is to lead us into "all" truth. So nothing should make us think that the Holy Spirit is not there when we reach for that Bible. Do you think He would miss an oppurtunity to guide you and teach you and speak to you? Not even likely!

In Christ, and Christ in us...and you think He wont find something good to interject?! Lol! He will and He does!

If God doesn't teach you when you read the scriptures, like you say, it is not literally God. Then what are all those Rhemas about that you get?

And if God don't talk to us through the scriptures, then how and when is the Holy Spirit suppossed to lead us into all truth?

 

[Edward]

Oh, I bolded some other lines in those scriptures. Jesus told them that He can't tell them everything now because they couldn't bear it, couldn't understand it.
Enter Holy Spirit...guide us into all truth. Thes are last days. He has poured out His Spirit on all flesh and knowledge has increased, so these things which the Apostles could not understand...are being revealed today.
Through Rhemas!
And he will shew you these things
He will shew you these things...(I bolded those too)

So new things are coming out and they are true, though they are not in scripture!

 

[christian1724]

Since you aren’t apart of the house of Israel some 2600 years ago; how will Ez 17 help you?

christian1724 said:
What makes you think that you know that?

so you are apart of the house of Israel 2600 years ago? Well ok then

You're deceptive, that's not what I highlighted. Cute, but childish. I think those sort of cheap shots are more suited for the comment sections on news sites or the maybe the politics section of this one.
Never the less, Let's say you are an American citizen, Does the events of America's past or the promises of it's future pertain to you? Even so, the history, prophecy, blessings and events of the house of Israel pertain to me. May be you as well only you just haven't realized it.

 

[Edward]

You have to be sensitive to hear the voice of the Lord. Sensitive to His presence. When you feel that slight twinge of the perception of the presence of God within you, you walk directly towards that inside of yourself.

And when you pray...remember! ...Prayer is not a Monologue!! Prayer is a Dialogue!! So don't just, brp brp Amen, and be done. Surely you asked for something, wisdom, healing, finances, whatever. But Pause and wait. And listen. He will answer you. Be still and know that He is God. And He will answer. Something will pop into your head.

Or He could appear in your car when you're driving and say Hi I'm here to teach you (Like one testimony I heard). But pray from the heart. From your Spirit. And give Him a chance to answer!

I wonder how many people have ever spent two hours praying? At first it may sort of seem like a game, but I kid you not it turns into a reguar conversation.
And none of it will ever disagree with any scripture. He seems to have a way of always saying just the right thing. He also seems to say stuff that I don't like to hear fairly regularly, lol. He keeps it real, what can I say?

 

[christian1724]

I feel you are playing games but ill play along for a while. The book of Ezekiel is during Israels period of captivity. In chapter 17 The eagle, which is the Babylonian King came to Lebanon (Jerusalem) and took its king and princes identified as top of tree and branches. That happened. Zedekiah was left in place in Jerusalem. The second Eagle which is the King of Egypt is brought into the picture because Zedekiah, instead of repenting and turning to God instead turned for help to the king of Egypt. Did it work? No. At the end of the chapter we find the most important part. God said he would set up his own lofty top or king and he would plant it on a high and lofty mountain in Israel. This I believe is a direct prophecy of Christ and his Church (kingdom) which saw its fulfillment on Pentecost in Acts 2. This prophecy is similar to Dan 2.

Thanks. That's a straight up answer. Wasn't that difficult was it?

I think that is fairly considered analysis, although I think there is more to it than that.
There's a story somewhere that speaks of a baby drinking the milk but afterwards it needs to be burped, but you have to give it time ... or something like that.
At any rate, I think there is more to that riddle than the milk, there's a hunk of meat in there somewhere that not all are ready to chew on.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Please direct quote me where I indicated that the Spirit is telling me something that is "different" to what the text says. (Also, your selection of words by which you misrepresent what others say is atrocious, is that intentional?)

If you say so.

No. An atheist is one who doesn’t believe in God. There are many who believe in God but are not born again Christians. I have a few in my family. They believe in God but they don’t care to obey the gospel.

Yes, you are right. I stand corrected.

Yes. The ONLY way you know you are one of the saved is to do the EXACT same thing that people in the early church did who were declared saved.

Who was declared saved?

You don’t get to decide if you are saved or not. It is God who does that. And he does that after you have done what he has commanded in his word. Acts 2:47
So, the person I described having the bedtime salvation experience isn’t saved because that is not what Jesus commanded them to do in order to be saved. He told the apostles to go preach the gospel to every creature; He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Was the person having their experience at night on the bed baptized? No. Then they are still in their sins. Not saved.

Well, have you considered that people had what we today call “a salvation experience” differently?

But let me ask you, how did God declare to you that you are saved?

 

[Cnkw3]

Ok! You do know what Rhema's are because they do happen to you. And you're exactly right, the more you study, the more it happens!

But surely you jest that this is not literally God, because it is.
It is God the Holy Spirit.

John 16:7, 12-15
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you...

...12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.../


(It's really the entire chapter of John 16). The Holy Spirit is the Comforter. It is HS job to lead us into all truth (I bolded it). And I think His favorite way to work with us is through the Book of Truth, the Bible! You bring yourself into the Lord's presence when you read a Bible.

Think about it, we are saved. Born again. In Christ. Christ in us. The Holy Spirit's job is to lead us into "all" truth. So nothing should make us think that the Holy Spirit is not there when we reach for that Bible. Do you think He would miss an oppurtunity to guide you and teach you and speak to you? Not even likely!

In Christ, and Christ in us...and you think He wont find something good to interject?! Lol! He will and He does!

If God doesn't teach you when you read the scriptures, like you say, it is not literally God. Then what are all those Rhemas about that you get?

And if God don't talk to us through the scriptures, then how and when is the Holy Spirit suppossed to lead us into all truth?

I dont disagree with any of this but let me clarify.
You say there is written word and spoken or “rhemas”. Right?
I don’t disagree but here is how that works. In the first century and early church there was no NT so Christian’s were given a measure of the Spirit by the laying on of an Apostles hands in order to help then spread the gospel and practice Christianity. The Spirit spoke DIRECTLY through certain individuals giving them new revelation.
Jesus spoke about this in Matt 10:19.
But those days have ceased. That too was prophesied in 1 Cor 13.
In Jn 12-16 we have Jesus at the final supper speaking DIRECTLY to the apostles. He was not speaking to you. Can we learn from what he said? Yes. For instance…
When he promise them the comforter would guide them into all truth; this was literal and miraculous. They didnt have all truth yet so it would be the Spirit DIRECTLY and miraculously working through them. That happened!
Today…..
We have “all truth”. Paul called it…”that which is perfect”, so we no longer need the DIRECT and miraculous work of the Spirit. We too can be “guided into all truth” when we read what the Spirit had them write and give to us. We ARE NOT guided into all truth with some new and miraculously revealed information that is not in the Bible. Voice in our head!
A person can learn and obey the gospel simply by reading the written word.
also
A person can learn and obey the gospel through the spoken (rhemas) word.
That happens when a preacher speaks by preaching book chapter and verse. He don’t get to make up new stuff like telling someone just say this sinners prayer and you will be saved. That’s made up and didnt come from the Spirit of God.
This is how “rhemas” work.

 

[Cnkw3]

Yes, you are right. I stand corrected.

Who was declared saved?

Well, have you considered that people had what we today call “a salvation experience” differently?

But let me ask you, how did God declare to you that you are saved?

This is a great post! These are great questions and I will answer them but this needs more time than I have. I promise, good Lord willing I will get to this later but right now I must go work. Thanks

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I dont disagree with any of this but let me clarify.
You say there is written word and spoken or “rhemas”. Right?
I don’t disagree but here is how that works. In the first century and early church there was no NT so Christian’s were given a measure of the Spirit by the laying on of an Apostles hands in order to help then spread the gospel and practice Christianity. The Spirit spoke DIRECTLY through certain individuals giving them new revelation.
Jesus spoke about this in Matt 10:19.
But those days have ceased. That too was prophesied in 1 Cor 13.
In Jn 12-16 we have Jesus at the final supper speaking DIRECTLY to the apostles. He was not speaking to you. Can we learn from what he said? Yes. For instance…
When he promise them the comforter would guide them into all truth; this was literal and miraculous. They didnt have all truth yet so it would be the Spirit DIRECTLY and miraculously working through them. That happened!
Today…..
We have “all truth”. Paul called it…”that which is perfect”, so we no longer need the DIRECT and miraculous work of the Spirit. We too can be “guided into all truth” when we read what the Spirit had them write and give to us. We ARE NOT guided into all truth with some new and miraculously revealed information that is not in the Bible. Voice in our head!
A person can learn and obey the gospel simply by reading the written word.
also
A person can learn and obey the gospel through the spoken (rhemas) word.
That happens when a preacher speaks by preaching book chapter and verse. He don’t get to make up new stuff like telling someone just say this sinners prayer and you will be saved. That’s made up and didnt come from the Spirit of God.
This is how “rhemas” work.

Then the thrill of God speaking directly to you is still before you. I don’t use Greek or Latin or Hebrew terms, btw. They aren’t languages I know and speak do they are meaningless.

I don’t see that God has ceased speaking to people who want Him to speak to them. It’s a part of any relationship, communication. Takes considerable effort to learn to know his voice and it is easier to just decide He doesn’t speak at all, I can understand.

There is also little teaching on this and most, for example, don’t know that if a person claims God spoke to them, we are required to actually judge the veracity. As I said, there’s a poster here who claims to hear from God but what he says is so off, I think he’s hearing his own (flattering) voice.

I started to know God was speaking to me in childhood before someone told me He doesn’t speak any more. It was anything but flattering. I’d already begun to hear his voice when I hear the theology that He ceased speaking. Too late.

 

[stovebolts]

When you write I am “needing to be open” that is attacking me personally, not my argument. That’s a direct attack on my character.

for_his_glory said,

I am not attacking your character, but the doctrines of man that preterist teach, or any of the various religious doctrines of man that are out there that comes against scripture. You have the right to believe what you want, but be opened to oppositions when they arise in disagreeing with you.

She is not attacking your character, nor inferring you are closed to being open.

Do you agree that we each have the right to believe what we want? Yes or no?
Do you agree or disagree with her statement that we should be open to oppositions when they arise? Yes or no?

 

[Edward]

In Jn 12-16 we have Jesus at the final supper speaking DIRECTLY to the apostles. He was not speaking to you.

Yes He was. He is speaking directly to you and to me.

Is there or is there not...one body, one head, one Spirit, one faith? So How can He not be talking to us too?

You are suggesting that Jesus wrote someing into scripture for all time that all will read, that has zero signicance or meaning to them, EH, just someing I was talking to the Apostles about, but it doesn't concern you. Yeah let's put it in the book!

No sir. You'll learn better one day.

 

[Edward]

Today…..
We have “all truth”. Paul called it…”that which is perfect”, so we no longer need the DIRECT and miraculous work of the Spirit. We too can be “guided into all truth” when we read what the Spirit had them write and give to us. We ARE NOT guided into all truth with some new and miraculously revealed information that is not in the Bible. Voice in our head!

With all due respect, you could not be further from the truth. You think we do not need the Spirit of God today?! That's laughable friend. We are not guided into truth by the Holy Spirit? We are not Spirit led? You are not Spirit led?
Wow. Just, wow.

Look Brother, Jesus said, My sheep know my voice. You say no, that evil spirit will come and deceive you by posing as God.

Well consider this then. When satan first fell he took 1/3 of the Angels with him, right? So he was outnumbered two to one right off the bat. If you believe that evil spirits come to those who don't want them around and put thoughts in their head...Then there's twice as many more Good spirits also, who aren't exactly incompetant! You don't mess with Angels. One time a single Angel killed 187,000 Assyrian soldiers in one night by himself. So good luck blocking him from receiving your prayer and taking up to the Lord!

Brother...a Spirit filled Christian is the last thing that an evil spirit wants to encounter.

 

[T. E. Smith]

With all due respect, you could not be further from the truth. You think we do not need the Spirit of God today?! That's laughable friend. We are not guided into truth by the Holy Spirit? We are not Spirit led? You are not Spirit led?
Wow. Just, wow.

Look Brother, Jesus said, My sheep know my voice. You say no, that evil spirit will come and deceive you by posing as God.

Well consider this then. When satan first fell he took 1/3 of the Angels with him, right? So he was outnumbered two to one right off the bat. If you believe that evil spirits come to those who don't want them around and put thoughts in their head...Then there's twice as many more Good spirits also, who aren't exactly incompetant! You don't mess with Angels. One time a single Angel killed 187,000 Assyrian soldiers in one night by himself. So good luck blocking him from receiving your prayer and taking up to the Lord!

Brother...a Spirit filled Christian is the last thing that an evil spirit wants to encounter.

You are misrepresenting him. He said, "DIRECT and miraculous work of the Spirit". He is speaking of divine revelation like what was given to the biblical authors.

 

[eddif]

In Jn 12-16 we have Jesus at the final supper speaking DIRECTLY to the apostles. He was not speaking to you. Can we learn from what he said? Yes. For instance…
When he promise them the comforter would guide them into all truth; this was literal and miraculous. They didnt have all truth yet so it would be the Spirit DIRECTLY and miraculously working through them.

John 12:16 kjv
16. These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.


Jesus seems to be speaking to disciples. Disciples who were to become Apostles. IMHO they became Apostles later. The text says glorified ( ?) when he returned to heaven where his glory had been. Being glorified he could send the Holy Spirit were they empowered to be witnesses.

At the Gentile inclusion similar empowerment came.

eddif

 

[Edward]

Jesus seems to be speaking to disciples. Disciples who were to become Apostles. IMHO they became Apostles later. The text says glorified ( ?) when he returned to heaven where his glory had been. Being glorified he could send the Holy Spirit were they empowered to be witnesses.

Pentecost wasn't just, something that happened to the Apostles. Something happened (the Comforter arrived!) and the Apostles were merely the first to receive Him. Now He indwells every believer.

 

[Free]

In the first century and early church there was no NT so Christian’s were given a measure of the Spirit by the laying on of an Apostles hands in order to help then spread the gospel and practice Christianity.

What we see in Scripture is the apostles going out, planting churches, staying with them and teaching them, and putting in place appropriate leadership to continue leading and teaching. Some of the letters were written fairly early on, and some containing even earlier sayings, and were passed around from church to church.

The Spirit spoke DIRECTLY through certain individuals giving them new revelation.

Which "certain individuals"?

Jesus spoke about this in Matt 10:19.

In the context of persecution, yes.

In Jn 12-16 we have Jesus at the final supper speaking DIRECTLY to the apostles. He was not speaking to you. Can we learn from what he said? Yes. For instance…
When he promise them the comforter would guide them into all truth; this was literal and miraculous. They didnt have all truth yet so it would be the Spirit DIRECTLY and miraculously working through them. That happened!
Today…..

In Matthew 28:19 Jesus was also speaking directly to the apostles. By your reasoning then, he was not speaking to us. Do you agree?

We have “all truth”. Paul called it…”that which is perfect”, so we no longer need the DIRECT and miraculous work of the Spirit.

Do you believe that "perfect" refers to the the NT?

 

[christian1724]

I do not know your background but I have a hint at your spirit.
Romans 1:20 kjv
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, evenhis eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So I am supplying you with a plant growth link. All the tree information in Ezekiel 17 can be understood much better ( IMHO based on the little I know about apical dominance). This has to do with growth centers at branch ends and the tip top of a tree, and age stages. I just cut down a storm damaged red oak that had some of the characteristics listed in one part of 17.
No telling what comments will be from others.

https://bsapubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2307/2446149

I will try and stick with you on this.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Thanks eddif.

I'm afraid you've incredibly/massively over estimated my ability to digest that kind of material. Every sentence was excruciatingly complex for me. Sorry brother, I didn't make it past the first paragraphs. Thanks for the try though, but I don't think I would be able to keep up with that.

 

[Cnkw3]

Who was declared saved?

This answer is really pretty easy but then I could write for an hour on it. The easy answer is found in the great commission. When Jesus gave the great commission he told the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel; he that believes AND is baptized shall be saved.
So, who did Jesus declare the saved were going to be?
Those that heard the gospel, believed it and were baptized. He said this I didnt. Now you can believe it or not. If what he said was correct we should see evidence of it. And, to no surprise…..We do!
The first gospel sermon in acts just a few days later we see the gospel preached, people believed it and were then told to repent, be baptized in order to remove sins (be saved). Then at the end of the chapter we find this…
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 2:47
The Lord does the adding, we don’t. Who was he adding? The saved. Who did he declare saved? Those who had believed and were Baptized Just as he promised. And not before baptism but after. 2:41
He was adding them to the church which is his body. Eph 1:22,23
There is only one body. Eph 4:4
It is the body/church of Christ. Eph 4:12
He is the savior of the Body. Eph 5:23
He redeemed/purchased the body/church with his own blood. Ac 20:28
How does one get into Christ or into his body/church? Baptism. Rom 6:2,3; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27
When we look at the conversions in acts they all follow this same pattern. It is what Jesus commanded and promised.
So, show me someone under the New covenant that was declared saved riding down the road saying some prayer? Saul would be the closest but even he was not saved on the road.
Or laying on there bed praying. The closest there would probably be Cornelius, but he wasn’t saved on his bed. It’s not there.

Well, have you considered that people had what we today call “a salvation experience” differently?

Your feelings or experience doesn’t validate salvation. You can “feel’ saved but it doesn’t mean you are. God declares who the saved will be and we all have to meet his conditions and I just showed you what he has prescribed. Now you can believe it or not. That is called “faith”. Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the word of God. Everything I have presented today is from book chapter and verse and does not contradict clear NT teaching. If it does you or anyone else is free to show me.

But let me ask you, how did God declare to you that you are saved?

I bet you can now guess the answer to that one. I did what he prescribed in his plan. i heard the gospel preached, I believed it, repented of my past sins and was baptized in order to be saved. He is the one who has promised to add me to his church/body if I comply with those conditions (But not before). He has made no such promise to anyone else. People will always bring up the easy passages like Jn 3:16. But those passages don’t contradict clear teaching elsewhere. The fact is….Those that “Believe” will be saved. Why? Because true Bible believers will follow through in obedience to the conditions Jesus has prescribed. Most don’t though.
We see true believers in acts 2:37. They were cut to heart (belief) and asked….what shall we do.
Most think their little mental belief exercise and prayer will save them but Jesus NEVER SAID IT WOULD under his new will and Testament.
I think you for your questions.

 

[eddif]

And if God don't talk to us through the scriptures, then how and when is the Holy Spirit suppossed to lead us into all truth?

I am not putting down the scriptures.

The prophecy and reality of the spiritual gifts.
Matthew 9:6 kjv
6. But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Not just the scriptures but the word become flesh and active. They had scripture and the miracles.
Creation itself shows a genetic book of revelation. Seeds

eddif

 

[Cnkw3]

Yes He was. He is speaking directly to you and to me.

Is there or is there not...one body, one head, one Spirit, one faith? So How can He not be talking to us too?

You are suggesting that Jesus wrote someing into scripture for all time that all will read, that has zero signicance or meaning to them, EH, just someing I was talking to the Apostles about, but it doesn't concern you. Yeah let's put it in the book!

No sir. You'll learn better one day.

God told Noah to build an ark. Are you currently building one like God instructed? I mean…how can God put something in his book for all to read if its not specifically directed to everyone? He told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Was that for you? He told Saul to go into Damascus and wait for further instructions. Are you on your way to Damascus. He told the apostles in Acts 1 to wait in Jerusalem for the Spirit. Is that for you? We are instructed to “rightly divide the word of truth”. It appears you don’t do that.