Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Free]

You are mixing up the "works" of the law with the work of obedience; the obedience of faith.

Again, no one in the bible was justified by disobedience.

People are only saved by obedience; Obeying the Gospel.
People are only justified by obedience.

After we are saved, then we must be led by the Spirit, which is another way of saying obeying the Spirit rather than obeying the sinful desires of our flesh.

Again:

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

No work justify, whether works of the law or good works. To say that good works justify is to say that Paul wrong in the numerous times he called salvation and justification a free gift from God. As he says, if something is merited—if it is owed because of works—then it isn’t a gift.

To say that obedience justifies is works salvation, which is completely contradictory to the gospel and undermined Christ’s work.

Please provide the definition(s) of justification.

 

[Free]

Sinners are people who commit sin.
Sinners are people who walk in darkness.

And those who claim to believers and have no sin are self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn’t have his truth in them.

I’m not addressing your sinless perfectionism heresy here as it’s not the topic of this thread.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And those who claim to believers and have no sin are self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn’t have his truth in them.

Those who are justified, walk in the light-God.

I’m not addressing your sinless perfectionism heresy here as it’s not the topic of this thread.

You said..."Those who are justified obey."
If that is true, (it is), then it is the unjustified who disobey.

Do you really think that nobody is justified ?

 

[JLB]

not because of works done by us in righteousness,

As I said before it's not works of righteousness, not the works of the law, not works that earn a wage...

It is the "work" or action of obedience; the obedience of faith.

If you don't understand what this is, then just say so and I will continue to show all the scriptures that pertain to this principle, or law of faith.

Please don't keep quoting scriptures where Paul is saying "not by works of righteousness" or "not by the works of the law" or "not by works that earn" because I wholeheartedly agree.

However, it shows you simply don't understand what the law of faith is or how it functions.

When God spoke to Abraham, or Noah or anyone else, they received faith, however the faith they received was dormant or dead, until they obeyed what God said to them.

Noah moved with godly fear and built the ark in obedience to what God said...

Abraham obeyed and left his fathers house and went out...

Abraham obeyed and took his son Isaac up on the mountain to sacrifice in obedience to God's word of faith...

The woman with the issue of blood moved through the crowd, and disregarded the culture of the day and touched the hem of His garment, is response to the word of faith in her heart.

This is called the obedience of faith, which is the corresponding action or "work" that faith requires.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

The obedience of faith is the contextual theme of the entire book of Romans, as it begins and ends with this phrase.

Being led by the Spirit, obeying the truth, and obeying the Gospel are just other ways of saying the obedience of faith.






JLB

 

[Free]

As I said before it's not works of righteousness, not the works of the law, not works that earn a wage...

It is the "work" or action of obedience; the obedience of faith.

If you don't understand what this is, then just say so and I will continue to show all the scriptures that pertain to this principle, or law of faith.

Please don't keep quoting scriptures where Paul is saying "not by works of righteousness" or "not by the works of the law" or "not by works that earn" because I wholeheartedly agree.

However, it shows you simply don't understand what the law of faith is or how it functions.

When God spoke to Abraham, or Noah or anyone else, they received faith, however the faith they received was dormant or dead, until they obeyed what God said to them.

Noah moved with godly fear and built the ark in obedience to what God said...

Abraham obeyed and left his fathers house and went out...

Abraham obeyed and took his son Isaac up on the mountain to sacrifice in obedience to God's word of faith...

The woman with the issue of blood moved through the crowd, and disregarded the culture of the day and touched the hem of His garment, is response to the word of faith in her heart.

This is called the obedience of faith, which is the corresponding action or "work" that faith requires.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

The obedience of faith is the contextual theme of the entire book of Romans, as it begins and ends with this phrase.

Being led by the Spirit, obeying the truth, and obeying the Gospel are just other ways of saying the obedience of faith.

You're going off track here a bit. The discussion is about justification and what it means. Paul and James are clear that no one is justified by any sort of works. The way you're speaking of obedience, "the obedience of faith," as needed for justification, turns that into salvation by works, no different than works of the law or works of righteous.

Again, you need to study the meaning(s) of justification in order to have a proper understanding of what Paul and James mean, otherwise you end up preaching another gospel.

 

[RBDERRICK]

What does any of this have to do with the fact that the Bible teaches we are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone?

Why do you need to explain the work accomplished by Jesus Christ on the cross, if we must believe in that work to be justified by confession of faith in Christ?

When you preached faith in that work accomplished by Christ on the cross, as being the only faith alone that justifies the soul, then you're no longer preaching any justification by faith alone in Christ alone, but now it's justification by faith alone in Christ and His finished work alone.

You have made a clear separation from any justification by faith alone, that is not faith in the work He accomplished on the cross. There are Christians that preach justification by faith alone, which I of course disagree with, but they do not preach it is necessary to believe in His work accomplished on the cross.

Therefore, int he gospel of justification you prezch, any demand to know exactly what that work is, is not only reasonable but necessary. How else can anyone be justified by that faith alone in His finished work?

Rom 10:14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And so, in the gospel of justification by faith alone in Christ and His accomplished work alone, what work are we to believe Christ accomplished on the cross and finished by His death? All our sins are paid for by His death alone? All our sins are paid for at the cross when He died? All our sins are already paid for and forgiven? Or, all our sins are paid for, but only forgiven with confession of faith? Or, only forgiven by faith with repentance? When all our sins are paid for and forgiven, does that include past, present, and future sins?

We may not need to understand how such things can be, but we surely must know for certain what we are to believe from the heart, in order to be justified by Christ.

Luk 1:3It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

 

[RBDERRICK]

There is no justification without the application of the justifying blood of Christ.

Of course not. Nor is there any application of the justifying blood of the Lamb, without repentance to obey Him.

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I have been trying to bring the conversation around to the importance of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ in regards to justification.

And I've agreed there is no justification for any disobedience to any commandment of the Lord. The only problem is with them that preach there is no justification by faith without water baptism, including before being baptized with water.

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

We are justified by repentance and conversion to Jesus' faith, which certainly is before water baptism, or any other obedience to the law of Christ.

Gal 2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Any law that says we are not justified by faith in Jesus Christ, without first doing that work, is a gospel of justification by works of the law:

Gal 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Like the promise of God, the faith of Jesus Christ is disanulled and made of none effect, without first doing works of the law. Justification is by works, not only by works. Jusitification is by faith with works, noy by faith only with works.

Preaching justification of water baptism as obedience to Christ, is the commandment to be water baptised. But preaching no justification by faith until water batpism, is preaching justification by works of the law, and not by the Spirit through faith from the heart.

In James 2, the faith alone that is dead to God, and does not justify the believer, is only when the faith is with transgression (respect of persons), and with disobedience to the faith (not doing the good at hand).

James 2 is not saying we are not justified by faith, until we do good works.

 

[JLB]

You're going off track here a bit. The discussion is about justification and what it means. Paul and James are clear that no one is justified by any sort of works.

No one is justified by works of righteousness.
No one is justified by works that earn.
No one is justified by the works of the law of Moses.


We are only justified by the work of obedience, the obedience of faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

The "work" Abraham did was to obey the word of the LORD to sacrifice His Son on the altar.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Of course not. Nor is there any application of the justifying blood of the Lamb, without repentance to obey Him.

I do hope that you mean "repentance from sin", when you say "repentance to obey Him".

And I've agreed there is no justification for any disobedience to any commandment of the Lord.

Right.

The only problem is with them that preach there is no justification by faith without water baptism, including before being baptized with water.

There is no justification, sanctification, or washing by the blood of Christ, without water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

Any law that says we are not justified by faith in Jesus Christ, without first doing that work, is a gospel of justification by works of the law:

What Mosaic Law commands water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ?

Like the promise of God, the faith of Jesus Christ is disanulled and made of none effect, without first doing works of the law. Justification is by works, not only by works. Jusitification is by faith with works, noy by faith only with works.

The only "works" ever spoken against in the NT are of the Law...ie., circumcision, dietary rules, tithing, sabbath keeping and feast keeping.
If you want to include baptism in that list, show where in the Law baptism is commanded.

Preaching justification of water baptism as obedience to Christ, is the commandment to be water baptised.

Do you mean justification OF water baptism ?
Or the justification BY baptism ?
Jesus did command it, and so did Peter and Paul.

But preaching no justification by faith until water batpism, is preaching justification by works of the law, and not by the Spirit through faith from the heart.

Where else but at our "immersion" into Christ death will the sanctifying, justifying blood of Christ be applied to us ?

In James 2, the faith alone that is dead to God, and does not justify the believer, is only when the faith is with transgression (respect of persons), and with disobedience to the faith (not doing the good at hand).

Oddly worded, but correct.
When did we start talking about James ?

James 2 is not saying we are not justified by faith, until we do good works.

Isn't it ?
Faith is dead, without the manifestation of that faith.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And those who claim to believers and have no sin are self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn’t have his truth in them.

It is written..."But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7)

I’m not addressing your sinless perfectionism heresy here as it’s not the topic of this thread.

(Why keep bringing up the doctrine which is according to Godliness ?)

 

[Free]

No one is justified by works of righteousness.
No one is justified by works that earn.
No one is justified by the works of the law of Moses.


We are only justified by the work of obedience, the obedience of faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

The "work" Abraham did was to obey the word of the LORD to sacrifice His Son on the altar.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

Provide just one verse that shows one person was justified by "the work of obedience."

I asked you previously to please provide the definition(s) of justification. So, I ask again. And, as I stated, it will all make sense once you study what justification means and how it is used.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Provide just one verse that shows one person was justified by "the work of obedience."

Isn't that phrase sort of ambiguous ?
Wasn't the ruler of the synagogue justified for his obedience ? (Mark 5:35-36)
Wasn't Cornelius justified for his obedience ? (Acts 10)

I asked you previously to please provide the definition(s) of justification. So, I ask again. And, as I stated, it will all make sense once you study what justification means and how it is used.

Vindicated.
Shown to be right.

 

[JLB]

Provide just one verse that shows one person was justified by "the work of obedience."

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Abraham obeyed the word from God to offer his son Issaac on the altar.

again, the first time Abraham was justified is when he obeyed God to go out from his fathers house to a land the LORD would show him. By this obedience of faith he was justified and foreshadowed how the Gentiles would be justified by faith.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

This is that same account from Paul -

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9

 

[Free]

Isn't that phrase sort of ambiguous ?

No.

Wasn't the ruler of the synagogue justified for his obedience ? (Mark 5:35-36)
Wasn't Cornelius justified for his obedience ? (Acts 10)

It depends on what meaning of "justified" you're using. There are two meanings that are relevant to this discussion which the two detractors are, so far, unwilling to study for themselves.

Vindicated.
Shown to be right.

That is one meaning, the one that applies to James 2:21, but that isn't the meaning that is related to salvation and the biblical teaching that justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. That is the meaning Paul most often uses and is especially important in this discussion as he also talks about Abraham in Romans 4. Same OT quote that James uses, but they both are using two different meanings of justification.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No.
It depends on what meaning of "justified" you're using. There are two meanings that are relevant to this discussion which the two detractors are, so far, unwilling to study for themselves.
That is one meaning, the one that applies to James 2:21, but that isn't the meaning that is related to salvation and the biblical teaching that justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. That is the meaning Paul most often uses and is especially important in this discussion as he also talks about Abraham in Romans 4. Same OT quote that James uses, but they both are using two different meanings of justification.

See ?
Ambiguous !
What definition do you use ?

 

[Free]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Abraham obeyed the word from God to offer his son Issaac on the altar.

again, the first time Abraham was justified is when he obeyed God to go out from his fathers house to a land the LORD would show him. By this obedience of faith he was justified and foreshadowed how the Gentiles would be justified by faith.

Again, the definition of justification really matters:

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, (ESV)

Paul is clearly saying that Abraham was not justified by works, but by believing in God. You have Paul and James in total contradiction because you haven't done your due diligence in studying the meanings of justification.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

This is that same account from Paul -

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9

Yes, exactly. Everyone is justified by faith, not "by the work of obedience, the obedience of faith," just faith.

 

[Free]

See ?
Ambiguous !
What definition do you use ?

What is ambiguous? Justification has more than one meaning, which is my point. Most words have multiple meanings which depend on context.

The most common meaning of justification that Paul uses is "to be declared righteous," which happens at the moment of salvation, when Christ's righteousness is imputed to a believer, by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

 

[JLB]

Again, the definition of justification really matters:

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, (ESV)

We have been over this, and I plainly stated that the work is not:

Works of righteousness.
Work that earns a wage - Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
The works of the law

Here you quoted a verse whose context is work that earns. No one can work to earn righteousness.


The righteousness of faith is demonstrated as follows -

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

God spoke to Noah and warned him.

Noah obeyed and built the Ark.

This is how the righteousness of faith works.


God spoke to Abraham to offer his son Isaac on the altar, and Abraham obeyed and was justified.

 

[Hopeful 2]

What is ambiguous? Justification has more than one meaning, which is my point. Most words have multiple meanings which depend on context.

That is what I mean by ambiguous.
Without a precise citing of the word's use, its definition is unknown.

The most common meaning of justification that Paul uses is "to be declared righteous,"

I agree with that, when used in its proper context.

which happens at the moment of salvation,

As salvation won't be granted until the day of judgement, I must disagree with that.
Do you have a verse to cite for your thought ?

when Christ's righteousness is imputed to a believer, by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Three alones, huh.
Christ's righteousness is imputed when the man is made righteous.
The unrighteous have nothing imputed to them.

 

[JLB]

As salvation won't be granted until the day of judgement, I must disagree with that.

What do you call being born again, and joined to Christ as one spirit with Him, if not salvation?

Now in this life we have salvation through faith.

Paul explains -

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

Paul is explaining salvation through faith and using the language of faith in his teaching. Hope and not seen.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen; (not yet realized; not yet obtained)

So in that regard if we still have faith in Christ for salvation, by default we are still hoping for the salvation we have not yet seen; not yet obtained.

Everything in this life is the hope of salvation, the hope of eternal life, because we have yet to be resurrected from the dead, which occurs at His coming.



JLB