Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Free]

But only believe?



Which record of Jesus Christ is only found in Scripture.

So, justification is not by only believing, but only by believing the record of Jesus Christ in Scripture, is true?

1Jo 5:10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

By believing the record of Jesus Christ in Scripture is true, we are imputed righteousness, justified, and given eternal life?

And faith alone in Christ alone, is to only believe in Jesus Christ's record of Scripture, and not in any other christ recorded on earth, such as Buddha, Mohammed, or other Jewish messiahs?

Mark 13:22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.



Confessing trust in the Scriptural record as true, is confessing trust in the true Christ?



That faith alone in the only true record on earth, of the true Christ of God, is the only instument that justifies the soul with Christ?

The instument of our salvation and justification with God by Jesus Christ, is faith in the true record of His works on the cross?

The record of Jesus Christ in Scripture is true, whether anyone believes it or not, but only them that believe His record is true, is justified with God? Who gives record of His dear Son in the Scripture of truth...

Jhn 19:35And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

The work accomplished by Jesus Christ on the cross, was to have His work recorded in Scripture of truth forever, that if any might believe that true record, they would be justified with God and have eternal life with Christ forever?

Is this what you would preach, or is something missing, or needs be added, to be justified by faith alone in Christ alone?

I have no idea why you keep repeating things such as "the only true record." You are making this far more confusing than it needs to be.

We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Justification, which means to be declared righteous by God, is when pardon for sin is made and Christ's righteousness is imputed. It is a one-time event made possible by Christ's work on the cross and is entirely an act of God's grace. A person is justified when they confess their faith in Christ; it is to receive, by faith, his righteousness as offered in the Gospel. That a person has been justified, that they have a true saving faith, will be shown by good works.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I feel it is a major mistake to divorce 'water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins' from 'belief'.

If anyone preaches separation of water baptism from faith in Jesus Christ, then that can easily be rebuked:

Col 2:12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Baptism must be through faith, even as recieving the Spirit can only be by hearing with faith.

It's the same for anything we do, lest it be sin without faith.

Rom 14:23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

The same is for communion given to the churches. Baptism and communion with hands does not save nor justify the soul, but they must be by faith, else they become sin and outwardly religious acts alone.

Real believers get baptized.

True. Just as real believers keep all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord for His church on earth.

Are you what is called oneness pentecost? Do you believe Acts 2:38 must be recited exactly as written, in order for the water baptism to save the same, and even be acceptable to the Lord? Or at least acceptable into churches that believe that?

Is it like one gun qualification law does not extend to every state, so that those baptism only in the name of the Lord, or in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost must be rebaptised properly?

 

[RBDERRICK]

I have no idea why you keep repeating things such as "the only true record." You are making this far more confusing than it needs to be.

Is there any other true record of Jesus Christ than Scripture? Or, of any record of another true Christ than Jesus?

A person is justified when they confess their faith in Christ

Is this the definition of the only faith that justifies the soul? It's faith in Christ?

What about faith in the Scriptures testifying of Christ? Afterall, there are many false Christs come and gone in the world. And all of their followers had faith in Christ.

To have faith in the true Christ, Jesus Christ, don't we also need to believe the Scriptural record of Him? Or, is that 'assumed' in having faith in Jesus Christ?

And what about some saying it's also necessary, or even 'assumed' in the faith of Christ, to believe in the 'finished work' or 'work accomplished' by Christ on the cross? Afterall, we are now speaking of specific doctrine, not just faith in Christ and Scriptures of God.

What if we that confess faith in Christ, and in the Scriptures testifying of Him, do not agree on the manner of work He did finish and accomplish on the cross?

Can there be such doctrinal disagreements, while we are all justified by our faith in Christ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

No.
Justification is being righteous, as the Lord is righteous.

You answered and said justification is not righteousness.
Now you say justification is being righteous.
The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines justify like this..."Some common synonyms of justify are assert, defend, maintain, and vindicate. While all these words mean "to uphold as true, right, just, or reasonable," justify implies showing to be true, just, or valid by appeal to a standard or to precedent."
I will often use the word "vindicated" when referring to "justified".
Depending on the context of a verse or chapter, "vindicated-shown to be right" is the best synonym.

God doesn't justify anyone without doing His righteousness.
Only them washed from past sins and doing His righteousness, are justified by God in Jesus Christ.

Agreed.
No sinner can be vindicated-shown to be right according to the word of God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Obedience to what?

Obedience to God.

Our own faith?

Depends what your faith is in.
If you have faith that your jet will get off the ground, the jet's take-off will justify that belief.

Is the Jewish faith justified by obeying the Torah? The Muslim faith justified by obeying the Koran?

Yes to both.
As both those Faiths are of a limited scope, adhering to them can only deliver so much.

If our obedience justifies our faith, then we are justifying ourselves by doing our own faith.

Of course.

And so, what if our faith is not the faith of God?

Then it's justification will only be partial.
The justification of the Jewish and Moslem faiths will only be realized if the adherents finally get what they trusted they will receive for their obedience to their faiths.
The results will justify their adherence.

Even many of the sinners trusting in justification by faith alone, also go on to preach judging their faith by works of 'progress' in their religion. They call it their fruit showing their faith is 'salvific'. I call it their religious fruit show.

Proof justifies.
The sinners think they are justified now, but the day of judgment will be used to reckon the true justification of their faiths.
They have no proof !

It's obedience to God's word and law, that God justifies. And justified obedience to God can only be by the faith of His Son Jesus Christ.

I agree.
God justifies, based on our actions.
Our actions justify our beliefs.
If our actions are wrong, our justification of them is also wrong.

Obedience to God's word, proves we have the faith of Jesus, which justifies the obedient.
Only the faith of Jesus justifies the soul, not any other faith of man's own. The gift by grace is the faith of Jesus that always does God's good will, rather than our own faith that does good and evil, or even more good and less evil than before.
His gift of justifying faith toward God, is only given freely to them that repent for His name's sake.
The gospel command is to repent. The gospel good news is mercy.
We repent of dead works for conversion to the faith of Jesus, that saves us from sinning.
We can glorify God, not justify Him. He desires our worship and lives pleasing to Him, not our justification.

We can justify Him, and the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, by adhering obediently until the day of judgement.
We can vindicate all His actions done for our good.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The intended purpose is given as indicated by Scripture.
There is no Scripture expressly saying it.

It is, but your point isn't with them.

Neither is there Scripture expressly saying Jesus Christ is God the Son.

I disagree.

The argument for what Scripture indicates is already given. Not acknowledging it doesn't make it go away.

I can't acknowledge something that isn't there.

Not for sensible readers, that only want to know what Scripture says about commanded water baptism of Jesus Christ

Correct, but you infer more than what is written.

Baptism in water isn't for a bath of the body nor soul. If the act of water baptism with hands washes the soul, the the act outer circumcison with hands sanctifies the soul.

They are one. (You meant "without hands". )

By providing alternative reasons for water baptism, we disannul the true purpose of the Spirit's baptism.

That is what I said.

And so, Baptism of the Spirit is not the baptism of Christ?

I would call the gift of the Holy Ghost/baptism of the Spirit "God's baptism", as He gives it.

I really didn't think you would go there, just to not be instructed in any iota.

I just did.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You answered and said justification is not righteousness.

To clarify, your definition from me was not mine.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines justify like this..."Some common synonyms of justify are assert, defend, maintain, and vindicate. While all these words mean "to uphold as true, right, just, or reasonable," justify implies showing to be true, just, or valid by appeal to a standard or to precedent."
I will often use the word "vindicated" when referring to "justified".
Depending on the context of a verse or chapter, "vindicated-shown to be right" is the best synonym.

Quoting dictionary to me doesn't help. I only accept Bible definitions of God's words.

If we want to define God's words, let's let Him do so by how He uses them in His own Book.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

This single verse says three things about justification with Christ, and condemns two common lies about being justified with Christ, whether by faith alone or by law alone:

1. His justification is being righteous, even as the Lord is righteous.

2. The means of His justification is doing righteousness.

This condemns the lie of being righteous as the Lord, without doing righteousness as the Lord.

It also condemns the adjunct lie of justification for sinners by faith alone, that God's people can't possibly do righteousness as the Lord, and walk as Jesus walked. (This lies reveals their heart of unbelief by their own faith alone, and shows their faith is not the faith of Jesus toward God. Which is because they repent not of all their sins and trespasses, but only in part at their own convenient will and faith.)

3. The justified righteousness done, is His righteousness, not man's own.

This condemns three separate ways of self-justification by works: those who do their own righteousness according to their own standard of faith in sinners' religion. Those who add to His law their own righteousness to be justified by, as in 'holiness' religion. And those that seek justification by righteousness of the law alone, and not by faith in the Lawgiver, as in Pharisaical religion.

 

[Free]

Is there any other true record of Jesus Christ than Scripture? Or, of any record of another true Christ than Jesus?

Of course not.

Is this the definition of the only faith that justifies the soul? It's faith in Christ?

What about faith in the Scriptures testifying of Christ? Afterall, there are many false Christs come and gone in the world. And all of their followers had faith in Christ.

To have faith in the true Christ, Jesus Christ, don't we also need to believe the Scriptural record of Him? Or, is that 'assumed' in having faith in Jesus Christ?

And what about some saying it's also necessary, or even 'assumed' in the faith of Christ, to believe in the 'finished work' or 'work accomplished' by Christ on the cross? Afterall, we are now speaking of specific doctrine, not just faith in Christ and Scriptures of God.

It all relies on and presumes that one has a biblical understanding of the gospel, including who Christ is, and what his work on the cross accomplished.

What if we that confess faith in Christ, and in the Scriptures testifying of Him, do not agree on the manner of work He did finish and accomplish on the cross?

Can there be such doctrinal disagreements, while we are all justified by our faith in Christ?

It would depend. Venturing too far off course results in believing in a different Jesus and a different gospel.

 

[JLB]

3. The justified righteousness done, is His righteousness, not man's own.

This condemns three separate ways of self-justification by works: those who do their own righteousness according to their own standard of faith in sinners' religion. Those who add to His law their own righteousness to be justified by, as in 'holiness' religion. And those that seek justification by righteousness of the law alone, and not by faith in the Lawgiver, as in Pharisaical religion.

Here is a biblical example of the righteousness according to faith -


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


By faith means God spoke to a person and they obeyed what God said.


Faith without this "work" of obedience is dead and cannot save.

Not the works of the law of Moses.
Not the work that earns a wage.
Not good works.

Only the work of the obedience of faith can save.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

 

[Hopeful 2]

To clarify, your definition from me was not mine.

?

Quoting dictionary to me doesn't help. I only accept Bible definitions of God's words

I don't see why.

.If we want to define God's words, let's let Him do so by how He uses them in His own Book.

You have been trying that unsuccessfully for a while now.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous
This single verse says three things about justification with Christ, and condemns two common lies about being justified with Christ, whether by faith alone or by law alone:

It doesn't have the word "justification" in it.

1. His justification is being righteous, even as the Lord is righteous.

Who is "His" ?
Whose justification ?

2. The means of His justification is doing righteousness.
This condemns the lie of being righteous as the Lord, without doing righteousness as the Lord.

It also condemns the adjunct lie of justification for sinners by faith alone, that God's people can't possibly do righteousness as the Lord, and walk as Jesus walked. (This lies reveals their heart of unbelief by their own faith alone, and shows their faith is not the faith of Jesus toward God. Which is because they repent not of all their sins and trespasses, but only in part at their own convenient will and faith.)

3. The justified righteousness done, is His righteousness, not man's own.

This condemns three separate ways of self-justification by works: those who do their own righteousness according to their own standard of faith in sinners' religion. Those who add to His law their own righteousness to be justified by, as in 'holiness' religion. And those that seek justification by righteousness of the law alone, and not by faith in the Lawgiver, as in Pharisaical religion.

This is going nowhere.
God justifies us, based on our actions.
Our actions justify our beliefs.
If our actions are sinful, our justification of them is false.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Obedience to God.

Depends what your faith is in.
If you have faith that your jet will get off the ground, the jet's take-off will justify that belief.

Yes to both.
As both those Faiths are of a limited scope, adhering to them can only deliver so much.

Of course.

Then it's justification will only be partial.
The justification of the Jewish and Moslem faiths will only be realized if the adherents finally get what they trusted they will receive for their obedience to their faiths.
The results will justify their adherence.

I accept your move toward an amoral objective definition of justification: Justification of one's faith is the works done.

Every endeavor on earth done by man is by faith with a goal to attain to, whether religious, business, social, entertainments, ets. The end of the works justify the faith as being effective, if the desired result sought for by faith is attained: whether for the good or the bad.

With the faith of Jesus Christ and obedience to His commandment, the end result is purity of heart, holy life, and eternal salvation of the soul, by resurrection of the dead unto life in His likeness.

And many are justified in this life by their faith, with the results they seek and attain to. And many seeking jsutification by their own faith alone, that also then preach good works for show, also no doubt attain to a better homes and garden life on earth.

But only one faith and justification will raise anyone from the dead unto everlasting life with God: the faith and justification that is only by Jesus Christ.

That is the only justifying faith of God, that does good works at all times pleasing to the Father.

Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Them that repent of their sinning to have Jesus' faith and do it, shall be judged by works worthy to walk with God and the Lamb in white forever.

{3:4} Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I disagree.

Quote the Scripture that says "Jesus Christ is God the Son". Or that "Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh", or "God the Word was made flesh"...

Your standard for Scriptural doctrine to be proven, in this case that of baptisms, is the same as unbelievers in the God and Son Jesus Christ.

I can't acknowledge something that isn't there.

We can acknowledge something that is argued, without agreeing with it. It's the only way to honestly argue a point. We must first accurately acknowledge what someone is saying, before we can accurately agree or disagree with it. It's nothing personal, but just an honest debate. Without it, there is no possiblilty of correction one way or the other.

I look for good correction of any argument I make, whether by Scripoture directly opposing it, or by showing any reasonable flaw int he argument from the Scriptures I give. The end goal is perfecting the teaching of Scripture, not winning an argument. And so, simply disagreeing is useless to me in that regard. And not even acknowledging the argument, is a nonstarter.

I would call the gift of the Holy Ghost/baptism of the Spirit "God's baptism", as He gives it.

Distinction without a difference. The Spirit is of Christ. Christ is God the Son. The Spirit's baptism is the baptism of Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK said:
Is there any other true record of Jesus Christ than Scripture? Or, of any record of another true Christ than Jesus?

Of course not.

I agree with you. Your definition of having justifying faith in Christ, is believing the true record of Jesus Christ according to the Scripture.

Luk 24:25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Which includes the things He suffered in this life unto death on a cross.

It all relies on and presumes that one has a biblical understanding of the gospel, including who Christ is,

I agree with you again. Your definition of justifying faith in Christ, is believing in the true record of Christ in Scripture, and in His gospel preached by His apostles:

Jhn 19:35And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

1Jo 5:10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Co 15:14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

In this case, if we do not believe Christ rose from the dead, then we are not believing His gospel according to Scripture. And so our faith in Christ is vain and does not justify us with God.

1Co 15:3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

and what his work on the cross accomplished. It would depend. Venturing too far off course results in believing in a different Jesus and a different gospel.

And here we may not agree. Your definition of justifying faith in Christ, is believing He suffered death on the cross, in His resurrection from the dead, and also in His work accomplished and finished on the cross.

What is that work accomplished on the cross by Jesus Christ, that all people confessing faith in Christ must believe in, in order to have justifying faith in Christ?

 

[JLB]

We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone

Clearly a contradiction.

How can faith be “alone” if it needs grace?

How can it be grace alone if it needs faith?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8


Grace is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of grace who empowers us to do what we can not do without Him, which is to obey the Gospel, through which we receive by hearing it.

The way we obey the Gospel through which we receive faith is by confessing Jesus as LORD.

• and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3


Grace and faith must work together through the obedience of the one who hears the word in order for salvation to be realized.


Faith alone is dead and can not save.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works (the action of obedience), is dead. James 2:17




JLB

 

[Free]

Clearly a contradiction.

How can faith be “alone” if it needs grace?

How can it be grace alone if it needs faith?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

You should read more context:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

This shows that from start to finish, salvation is a work of God alone. A person cannot be dead and believe in Jesus. As I have stated, faith is the means, and only means, through which we receive justification; it doesn't add anything. Even then, it is also a gift.

Grace is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of grace who empowers us to do what we can not do without Him, which is to obey the Gospel, through which we receive by hearing it.

The way we obey the Gospel through which we receive faith is by confessing Jesus as LORD.

• and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3

See, you are even saying here that "The way we obey the Gospel through which we receive faith is by confessing Jesus as LORD." That means, one must first confess Jesus is Lord, then they receive faith. And, as you point out, no one can only confess Jesus is Lord apart from an initial work of the Holy Spirit.

So, the order according to you is: the Holy Spirit works in the heart of a dead person so they can confess Jesus is Lord, and then they receive faith.

It is rather that the Holy Spirit works in the heart of a dead person to make them spiritually alive, giving them the faith by which they can put their trust in Christ and call him their Lord.

Grace and faith must work together through the obedience of the one who hears the word in order for salvation to be realized.

And that is all a work of God alone.

Faith alone is dead and can not save.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works (the action of obedience), is dead. James 2:17

And a dead person cannot have true, saving faith. That is James's point. One who professes to have faith but doesn't do any good works, has a dead faith; a "faith" that they have conjured up themselves--the faith of a dead person.

 

[Free]

1Co 15:3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


And here we may not agree. Your definition of justifying faith in Christ, is believing He suffered death on the cross, in His resurrection from the dead, and also in His work accomplished and finished on the cross.

What is that work accomplished on the cross by Jesus Christ, that all people confessing faith in Christ must believe in, in order to have justifying faith in Christ?

You quote that work, in 1 Cor 15:3--"that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures." It that our sins were placed on Christ, that he was the propitiation for our sins. This is all included in the Gospel. One must understand that they are a sinner deserving God's wrath, but that Christ died in their place, taking their sins upon himself and suffering the punishment of their sins. Otherwise, merely believing that Jesus died and rose again, without any understanding of why he died, is meaningless.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You quote that work, in 1 Cor 15:3--"that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures." It that our sins were placed on Christ,

Our sins imputed to Christ on the cross was the work He accomplished? How so? isn't it the Father that imputed sin to the Son?

that he was the propitiation for our sins.

His accomplished work was to be the propitiation for our sins on the cross, which is the sins of the whole world.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And so, how was He the propitiation? What work did that accomplish? A propiation is a means of just pardon?

Therefore, God forgives the sins and of the whole world by Jesus' propitiation of suffering and death on the cross?

Are the sins of the world already forgiven at the time of the death of the Jesus?

but that Christ died in their place, taking their sins upon himself and suffering the punishment of their sins.

Paying the price of death for our sins and of the world? The price of death toward God is already paid for at the cross.

All sins of the world were imputed to the Son, the propitiation of death for sin is accepted by God, and the price of death is paid in full?

The work of the cross accomplished by Jesus Christ and finished by His death is: All our sins and of the world are propitiated and paid for in full, and forgiven by the death of Jesus on the cross?

IS that all past, present, and future sins already forgiven?

One must understand that they are a sinner deserving God's wrath,

That is already understood by the transgression of Adam.

Ezek 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I accept your move toward an amoral objective definition of justification: Justification of one's faith is the works done.
Every endeavor on earth done by man is by faith with a goal to attain to, whether religious, business, social, entertainments, ets. The end of the works justify the faith as being effective, if the desired result sought for by faith is attained: whether for the good or the bad.

I agree.

With the faith of Jesus Christ and obedience to His commandment, the end result is purity of heart, holy life, and eternal salvation of the soul, by resurrection of the dead unto life in His likeness.

Well said.

And many are justified in this life by their faith, with the results they seek and attain to.

True.

And many seeking justification by their own faith alone, that also then preach good works for show, also no doubt attain to a better homes and garden life on earth.

Sadly...yes.

But only one faith and justification will raise anyone from the dead unto everlasting life with God: the faith and justification that is only by Jesus Christ.
That is the only justifying faith of God, that does good works at all times pleasing to the Father.

Perfectly said.

Them that repent of their sinning to have Jesus' faith and do it, shall be judged by works worthy to walk with God and the Lamb in white forever.
{3:4} Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Agreed.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Quote the Scripture that says "Jesus Christ is God the Son". Or that "Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh", or "God the Word was made flesh"...

AACH !
You are correct.
I think I am getting dyslexic in my old age...I read "Son of God" when you wrote "God the Son".

We can acknowledge something that is argued, without agreeing with it. It's the only way to honestly argue a point. We must first accurately acknowledge what someone is saying, before we can accurately agree or disagree with it. It's nothing personal, but just an honest debate. Without it, there is no possiblilty of correction one way or the other.

Yep, as it allowed me to see my misread earlier.

I look for good correction of any argument I make, whether by Scripture directly opposing it, or by showing any reasonable flaw int he argument from the Scriptures I give. The end goal is perfecting the teaching of Scripture, not winning an argument. And so, simply disagreeing is useless to me in that regard. And not even acknowledging the argument, is a nonstarter.

Good outlook.

Distinction without a difference. The Spirit is of Christ. Christ is God the Son. The Spirit's baptism is the baptism of Christ.

Thar sentence could be a whole new thread !

 

[JLB]

You should read more context:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

This shows that from start to finish, salvation is a work of God alone. A person cannot be dead and believe in Jesus. As I have stated, faith is the means, and only means, through which we receive justification; it doesn't add anything. Even then, it is also a gift.


See, you are even saying here that "The way we obey the Gospel through which we receive faith is by confessing Jesus as LORD." That means, one must first confess Jesus is Lord, then they receive faith. And, as you point out, no one can only confess Jesus is Lord apart from an initial work of the Holy Spirit.

So, the order according to you is: the Holy Spirit works in the heart of a dead person so they can confess Jesus is Lord, and then they receive faith.

It is rather that the Holy Spirit works in the heart of a dead person to make them spiritually alive, giving them the faith by which they can put their trust in Christ and call him their Lord.


And that is all a work of God alone.


And a dead person cannot have true, saving faith. That is James's point. One who professes to have faith but doesn't do any good works, has a dead faith; a "faith" that they have conjured up themselves--the faith of a dead person.

No such thing in scripture as faith alone.

Grace through faith is how salvation is obtained.

Not faith alone. Not grace alone.