Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[RBDERRICK]

Here is a biblical example of the righteousness according to faith -


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

True. It's righteousness by faith done.

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

By faith means God spoke to a person and they obeyed what God said.


Faith without this "work" of obedience is dead and cannot save.

Completely agree. Within the Scripture given, we see the work of obedience by faith of hearing from God: Prepared the ark according to God's building.

He heeded the warning by obedience, not just by believing it alone. He also condemned the world by justification of preparing for the flood warned of. And he became the heir of the faith and righteousness of God, that was first had by righteous Abel. Noah was then the only one on earth believing and obeying God's word.

Not the works of the law of Moses.

No law of Moses at the time.

Not the work that earns a wage.

Exactly. No one paid him to build the ark.

It was the work of salvation, that he did by faith: ...prepared an ark for the saving of his household,

This is Scripture speaking on the part of the believer in the work of our own salvation.

Thanks for the head's up.

Not good works.

It was a good work well done, by faith in God's word.

Good works done without Christ are filthy rags to God, whether by law alone or man's own will alone.

Having faith alone, is having one's own will alone, which is not crucified for Jesus' sake.

Mar 8:34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Only the work of the obedience of faith can save.

Exactly again:
Rom{1:5} By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

James 1:But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein,] he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

We also agree on the same Scripture for proof of doctrine of Christ: Justification is by doing the good works of Christ, and not by hearing and beleiving in them only. Faith in the works Christ did on earth, is no good if not doing them ourselves.

In fact, with the good example of the Samaritan, Jesus says it's more justified by God to do good, than just believing in good.

Only believing in what is good and right, does not make anyone good and righteous. The whole doctrine of justification by faith alone can be summed up in two words: Only agreeing.

Hearing and beleiving the word of truth alone, is only agreeing that it is true. Without and apart from any works doing the truth, it's the same faith of devils that also believe the truth, but do it not.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

In fact, those same devils puclicly acknowledged the truth of Jesus Christ as the Son of the most High on earth. Their confession of faith in Christ certainly did not save nor justify them.

Mar 5:7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Luk 4:34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You have been trying that unsuccessfully for a while now.

Simple disagreement without showing how, doesn't prove or disprove anything.

As I've noted, you don't debate to show error in arguments of others, but only give you're own arguments, if they differ.

It doesn't have the word "justification" in it.

So being righteous as the Lord, has nothing to do with being justified with Him?

Gen 6:8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Neither does it have the word "faith' in it.

Gal 2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Nor is the word 'grace' in it.

All Scripture must be taken to together, when teaching any Scripture. There is no being righteous with Christ, without being jsutified by Him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I agree.

Well said.

True.

Sadly...yes.

Perfectly said.

Agreed.

Being on the same speaking terms helps.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Thar sentence could be a whole new thread !

I don't see how, but if you start one, let me know. Or go private.

I'll keep in mind that debating the arguments of others that differ, is not your big interest. And so, I'll just put in my two cents to agree or disagree.

 

[Free]

Our sins imputed to Christ on the cross was the work He accomplished? How so? isn't it the Father that imputed sin to the Son?


His accomplished work was to be the propitiation for our sins on the cross, which is the sins of the whole world.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And so, how was He the propitiation? What work did that accomplish? A propiation is a means of just pardon?

Therefore, God forgives the sins and of the whole world by Jesus' propitiation of suffering and death on the cross?

Are the sins of the world already forgiven at the time of the death of the Jesus?


Paying the price of death for our sins and of the world? The price of death toward God is already paid for at the cross.

All sins of the world were imputed to the Son, the propitiation of death for sin is accepted by God, and the price of death is paid in full?

The work of the cross accomplished by Jesus Christ and finished by His death is: All our sins and of the world are propitiated and paid for in full, and forgiven by the death of Jesus on the cross?

IS that all past, present, and future sins already forgiven?



That is already understood by the transgression of Adam.

Ezek 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

What does any of this have to do with the fact that the Bible teaches we are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone?

 

[Free]

No such thing in scripture as faith alone.

Grace through faith is how salvation is obtained.

Not faith alone. Not grace alone.

You're arguing against something I'm not saying. Justification is by grace alone--it is all of God--through faith alone--a gift of God. What that means is that it is not by works; works never justify. Salvation is a gift of God from start to finish.

 

[Sovereign Solutions]

Greetings, friends. It is written that if any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God. It is written again that if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Therefore, christians are justified by faith, and they have peace with God through their Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also they have access by faith into this grace wherein they stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. But they are not justified by faith only, or "grace alone through faith alone". For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The men who have been taught by grievous wolves, to insert the word "alone" twice to a portion in the epistle to the ephesians, would do well to remember that it is written: Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

They would also do well to know that this glorious epistle, is not addressed to sinners. It is addressed to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

And the saints which were at Ephesus became saints when they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.

As the Lord Jesus Christ commanded, saying: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[JLB]

Justification is by grace alone

No such thing as grace alone in scripture.

Only those who obey are justified.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

The "work" that Abraham did was to obey the word of God to offer his son Issaac on the altar.

If Abraham only believed, and did not actually obey the word of faith, then Abraham's believing would have been in vain.



JLB

 

[Free]

No such thing as grace alone in scripture.

It’s by grace and only grace.

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (ESV)

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. (ESV)

Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

It doesn’t get any clearer, but there are many more such verses.

Only those who obey are justified.

Get the order correct, lest you preach another gospel. Those who are justified obey.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

The "work" that Abraham did was to obey the word of God to offer his son Issaac on the altar.

If Abraham only believed, and did not actually obey the word of faith, then Abraham's believing would have been in vain.

Two things. First, you also need to study what "justification" means. Second, context. Is James saying that a person is saved (justified) by works? No, he can't be, or he would be contradicting Paul and preaching another gospel.

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,
Rom 4:12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.
Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
Rom 4:18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”
Rom 4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” (ESV)

Clearly, Paul and James are saying something different regarding Abraham. Again, studying what justification means will make things clear.

 

[JLB]

It’s by grace and only grace.

No one is justified apart from obedience; the obedience of faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

 

[Free]

No one is justified apart from obedience; the obedience of faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

It’s interesting that you completely ignored what Paul says and just repeat what James says. I strongly suggest you study what justification means, since you’re essentially saying that Paul got it wrong; and he wrote a lot about it.

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

Again, it doesn’t get any clearer than that.

 

[JLB]

It’s interesting that you completely ignored what Paul says and just repeat what James says. I strongly suggest you study what justification means, since you’re essentially saying that Paul got it wrong; and he wrote a lot about it.

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

Again, it doesn’t get any clearer than that.

Paul and James teach exactly the same thing. The obedience of faith.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Titus 2:11-15

Again, Grace is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of grace.

We are saved, justified, and sanctified through obeying the truth by the Spirit.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides 1 Peter 1:22-23

The way each of us are saved is by obeying the Gospel; Obeying the truth.

 

[Free]

Paul and James teach exactly the same thing. The obedience of faith.

They both teach that works are evidence of a person who is justified. Neither of them teaches that works justify. Paul says that a person who teaches works are necessary for justification is to be considered accursed because it is a different gospel that does away with grace and the work accomplished on the cross by Christ.

We are saved, justified, and sanctified through obeying the truth by the Spirit.

You have too many terms going on there. Maybe pick one that obedience applies to. Not a single person is justified by works.

The way each of us are saved is by obeying the Gospel; Obeying the truth.

What do you mean by "saved"? Do you no realize the Bible uses three different terms that have different meanings?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Simple disagreement without showing how, doesn't prove or disprove anything.
As I've noted, you don't debate to show error in arguments of others, but only give you're own arguments, if they differ.

For this thread, I was merely trying to provide a simple meaning for the word "Justify".

So being righteous as the Lord, has nothing to do with being justified with Him?

They are inseparable.

All Scripture must be taken to together, when teaching any Scripture. There is no being righteous with Christ, without being jsutified by Him.

There is no justification without the application of the justifying blood of Christ.
It is written..."Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Rom 5:9)
1 Cor 6:11 provides some of what happens at our water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins...."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

I have been trying to bring the conversation around to the importance of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ in regards to justification.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Being on the same speaking terms helps.

Yes indeed.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't see how, but if you start one, let me know. Or go private.

I'll keep in mind that debating the arguments of others that differ, is not your big interest. And so, I'll just put in my two cents to agree or disagree.

I hadn't been debating you.
Just trying to steer the posts towards water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ's importance in justification

 

[Hopeful 2]

Get the order correct, lest you preach another gospel. Those who are justified obey.

I am glad to see that you know the sinners are not justified.

 

[Free]

I am glad to see that you know the sinners are not justified.

It depends on what you mean by "sinners," but I'm not going to address your heresy on top of the other one already in this thread.

 

[JLB]

They both teach that works are evidence of a person who is justified. Neither of them teaches that works justify. Paul says that a person who teaches works are necessary for justification is to be considered accursed because it is a different gospel that does away with grace and the work accomplished on the cross by Christ.

You are mixing up the "works" of the law with the work of obedience; the obedience of faith.

Again, no one in the bible was justified by disobedience.

People are only saved by obedience; Obeying the Gospel.
People are only justified by obedience.

After we are saved, then we must be led by the Spirit, which is another way of saying obeying the Spirit rather than obeying the sinful desires of our flesh.





JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

It depends on what you mean by "sinners," but I'm not going to address your heresy on top of the other one already in this thread.

Sinners are people who commit sin.
Sinners are people who walk in darkness.