Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Carry_Your_Name]

The problem is, there is no attitude on my part and nothing wrong with my tactics. I could talk about your attitude and tactics, however. This is far from the first time you’ve interrupted a discussion with your self-righteousness.

This is a theological discussion in which I am reading what others are writing, quoting them, and responding with Scripture and arguments based on Scripture and the accepted meanings of words.

We all read the same bible, but as I said in another thread, what the bible says is one thing, what you think it says based on what you're taught is quite another. You who accuse me for interrupting should ask yourself what were you up to when you first jumped in a discussion supposedly about Sola Fide in your post #7.

Read the OP. It’s an attack on justification by grace alone, through faith alone. Hence why the meaning of justification in James 2:21 and 24 at the heart of the issue.

No, the heart of the issue is the meaning of "faith" - and the relationship between faith and work, not the meaning of "justification". I'm a proponent of "justification by grace through faith alone" as much as you do.

More of that self-righteousness.

Then explain the difference. OP called out "self-justification", right? You never bothered to respond to that.

Again, read the OP. At the center is the meaning of justification. The OP is using the wrong meaning in James 2:21 and 24, leading him to believe that faith alone is error.

“It's not just that we can be justified by our faith alone, but it's at war against ever being justified by faith with works: Faith Alone must always Stand Alone against ever having works added to it.”

The OP thinks that justification is by faith and works, based on an incorrect definition of justification. That is, as Paul says in Gal 1:6-10, a false gospel and a grave error.

No sir, the OP's problem is a wrong causation between faith and work. Genuine work is evidence of genuine faith, faith without work is dead, and that makes hypocrisy, all talk and no action. That has nothing to do with the definition of "justification".

Again, it’s like you’re not even reading what I’m writing. I have consistently said that justification has multiple meanings, as was shown several times using lexicons. But the context determines the specific meaning that is being used in a particular instance.

Apparently you've covered several instances where the word "justification" is used, not just one "particular instance", haven't you? Such as your post #223?

Also, generally it is as you said, the context determines the "specific" meaning, but in quite a handful of instances it doesn't. In Jn. 4 the Samaritan woman's context for "a drink" is the water from Jacob's well, but Jesus's context for "a drink" is the living water "springing up into eternal life", and that's what I meant by "biblical, historical and cultural references". That's another topic for another day.

But we’re talking about one specific word here, namely, justification.

No, we're talking about one specific word - FAITH.

I don’t understand what you’re saying here. And how does that fit with what you first said, “The only biblically correct meaning of justification is Christ's substitutionary atonement on the cross, anything else is secondary.”?

Christ's substitutionary atonement on the cross is what your faith is IN. Faith is not self seeking or self preserving. How does it not fit? You don't understand because your tunnel vision is fixed on "justification" and nothing else.

As I said, “You came in without having been involved in the discussion and so don't know why the discussion is focused on the definition of justification. If you're going to jump into a discussion that has been ongoing for some time, it would do you well to start reading from the beginning.”

I did read from the beginning, that's why I mentioned your post #7 on the first page.

If you had read the OP and understood what the central issue is, you would have known that my post was on point and got right to the heart of the matter. A wrong understanding of justification leads to an error in understanding what is meant by justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. It starts with the definition of justification.

No, all five Solas are about SALVATION, not justification. If you had read the OP and understood what the central issue is, you would have known that the central issue is about wrong causation between faith and work, your post was a diversion.

 

[JLB]

If they sin, they have not repented of sin.
They are not justified-shown innocent.

Please show the scripture that states this.


Please show a scripture that requires a person to repent of sin when they hear the Gospel.

 

[Free]

We all read the same bible, but as I said in another thread, what the bible says is one thing, what you think it says based on what you're taught is quite another. You who accuse me for interrupting should ask yourself what were you up to when you first jumped in a discussion supposedly about Sola Fide in your post #7.

Again, my post was got to the heart of the matter--an incorrect understanding of justification and the incorrect meaning being applied in James 2:21 and 24. In the OP, "justify," "justified," and "justifying" are mentioned no less than 12 times. Look at the first point:

"1. The common teaching of justification by faith alone, is that justification is only by faith alone, and never by nor with works.

That's important to understand, because that forbids any works added to one's faith alone, lest their faith is not alone, being with works: For faith alone apart from works to ever justify a person, then any faith with works must never justify the soul.
...
Teaching justification is only by faith alone, is teaching against ever having faith with works, lest faith not be alone, having works.

The Bible of course teaches the opposite, but we're showing inherint flaws in teaching, which the Bible has none."

That is what the OP means by "faith alone"--"justification is only by faith alone." It is a gross misrepresentation of the "justification by faith alone" doctrine and is based on not understanding both the different meanings of justification and the difference between justification and sanctification. One thing the OP does understand is that "faith alone" is simply short for "justification by faith alone."

No, the heart of the issue is the meaning of "faith" - and the relationship between faith and work, not the meaning of "justification". I'm a proponent of "justification by grace through faith alone" as much as you do.

Not the meaning of faith but the meaning of justification, which directly impacts the relationship between justification and work.

Then explain the difference. OP called out "self-justification", right? You never bothered to respond to that.

I don't need to respond to everything. I only respond to those things I deem necessary to get to the heart of the issue. Although, it is works salvation that is self-justification, which the OP promotes.

No sir, the OP's problem is a wrong causation between faith and work. Genuine work is evidence of genuine faith, faith without work is dead, and that makes hypocrisy, all talk and no action. That has nothing to do with the definition of "justification".

It has everything to do with the definition of justification; just read the second and third posts.

"Apreciate the response, but as I point out, this is not an argument about having faith alone, but about the inherint contradictions in being justified by faith alone.

Or more properly, as it's intended by the unrepentant: Only justified by faith alone, that is without any works at all. And so no one is ever jsutified by any faith at all, that is with works."

There it is--the purpose of the thread, succinctly stating what the OP is addressing.

Christ's substitutionary atonement on the cross is what your faith is IN. Faith is not self seeking or self preserving. How does it not fit?

More to my point, I have no idea what you're saying by most of your previous statement; it simply doesn't make sense: 'Likewise, "justification" is not "dikaioo" in general, but specifically, justified by faith.'

No, all five Solas are about SALVATION, not justification.

That is a false dichotomy. It seems you don't understand fully understand what justification means either. Sola fide is specifically in regards to the doctrine of justification, which is one aspect of salvation (justification, sanctification, glorification); it is the moment of salvation, when one's sins are pardoned, Christ's righteousness is imputed, and they are declared righteous. Again, sola fide is simply short form for "justification by faith alone."

'First, we’re speaking of “faith alone” in relation to the doctrine of justification, which is that “we are accounted righteous before God.”'

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/sola-fide-mean

"Paul was addressing the same question that sola fide addresses—on what basis is humanity declared by God to be justified? Is it by faith alone or by faith combined with works?
...
Sola fide—the doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works . . .
...
How important is sola fide? It is so important to the Gospel message and a biblical understanding of salvation that Martin Luther described it as being “the article with and by which the church stands.” Those who reject sola fide reject the only Gospel that can save them and by necessity embrace a false gospel."

https://www.gotquestions.org/sola-fide.html

 

[Hopeful 2]

Please show the scripture that states this.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the word "repent".
"Turn from, or, change."
If one repents of smoking, they don't smoke anymore...ever.
If one repents of sin, they don't sin anymore...ever.
What did the sinners repent of when John baptized them ?
It is written..."John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Mark 1:4)
Peter said this..."Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:6)
Paul wrote this..."And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." (2 Cor 12:21)
Paul also wrote theses words said to him by Jesus..."Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:" (Acts 26:17-19)

Please show a scripture that requires a person to repent of sin when they hear the Gospel.

Sure...."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Why do use tactics leading me to believe you are not a Christian ?
Is that what you want me to think ?
How can anyone be so naïve to think that their love of God would permit them to keep offending Him ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Again, my post was got to the heart of the matter--an incorrect understanding of justification and the incorrect meaning being applied in James 2:21 and 24. In the OP, "justify," "justified," and "justifying" are mentioned no less than 12 times. Look at the first point:

"1. The common teaching of justification by faith alone, is that justification is only by faith alone, and never by nor with works.

That's important to understand, because that forbids any works added to one's faith alone, lest their faith is not alone, being with works: For faith alone apart from works to ever justify a person, then any faith with works must never justify the soul.
...
Teaching justification is only by faith alone, is teaching against ever having faith with works, lest faith not be alone, having works.

The Bible of course teaches the opposite, but we're showing inherint flaws in teaching, which the Bible has none."

That is what the OP means by "faith alone"--"justification is only by faith alone." It is a gross misrepresentation of the "justification by faith alone" doctrine and is based on not understanding both the different meanings of justification and the difference between justification and sanctification. One thing the OP does understand is that "faith alone" is simply short for "justification by faith alone."

Look, I just wanna move on from ancient Greek lexicon, alright? Aren't you tired of talking in circles? All I can see is that you've been justifying yourself, you don't seem to be listening to anybody. You claimed you're here to discuss theology, so I ask you, if justification is by faith alone and not by work, what does this "work" mean, and where is work supposed to fit in? Why does Jesus identify his brothers and sisters as those who do the will of God (Matt. 12:50)?

Not the meaning of faith but the meaning of justification, which directly impacts the relationship between justification and work.

No, it is about the meaning of faith, faith in what or who, and evidence of genuine faith.

It has everything to do with the definition of justification; just read the second and third posts.

No it doesn't, it has everything to do with your obsession with the definition of justification.

More to my point, I have no idea what you're saying by most of your previous statement; it simply doesn't make sense: 'Likewise, "justification" is not "dikaioo" in general, but specifically, justified by faith.'

As long as you bring up its definition from Greek lexicon, it's inherently "dikaioo" in general, only in a specific biblical context can it be specifically about "justification by faith", such as Rom. 4. In this context it's more like justification by your pride and ego.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That is a false dichotomy. It seems you don't understand fully understand what justification means either. Sola fide is specifically in regards to the doctrine of justification, which is one aspect of salvation (justification, sanctification, glorification); it is the moment of salvation, when one's sins are pardoned, Christ's righteousness is imputed, and they are declared righteous. Again, sola fide is simply short form for "justification by faith alone."

Of course, you can't have salvation without justification, can you. But if justification is one aspect and the first aspect of salvation, obviously you can't have salvation by justification alone either, that's not one of the five solas. I keep bringing up substitionary atonement because that's how justification works - our sins transferred to our lord and savior who has no sin of his own. If you don't have faith IN Christ's substitionary atonement, you can't be justified. Does that make sense to you, mister? Still doesn't? Then go back pounding on your Greek lexicon.

 

[Free]

Look, I just wanna move on from ancient Greek lexicon, alright?

Why? The meanings are central to understanding the texts where it is used.

Aren't you tired of talking in circles?

I am, but sometimes it’s necessary when others don’t understand. It’s seen when others keep repeating themselves, when they keep repeating their lack of understanding.

All I can see is that you've been justifying yourself, you don't seem to be listening to anybody.

Just because you and others disagree with me doesn’t mean I’m not listening. Again, I’ve been quoting and responding, and if there is something I don’t understand, I say so or ask.

if justification is by faith alone and not by work, what does this "work" mean, and where is work supposed to fit in? Why does Jesus identify his brothers and sisters as those who do the will of God (Matt. 12:50)?

What do you mean “where is work supposed to fit in?”? If justification is by faith alone, and it clearly is, what do you think “work” means and where do you think it is supposed to fit in?

No, it is about the meaning of faith, faith in what or who, and evidence of genuine faith.

No it doesn't, it has everything to do with your obsession with the definition of justification.

Because the meaning of justification is central, as I’ve shown from the first three posts.

As long as you bring up its definition from Greek lexicon, it's inherently "dikaioo" in general, only in a specific biblical context can it be specifically about "justification by faith", such as Rom. 4.

Again, i don’t understand what you’re saying.

In this context it's more like justification by your pride and ego.

I’m tired of your personal comments; any more and you’ll be removed from this discussion.

Of course, you can't have salvation without justification, can you. But if justification is one aspect and the first aspect of salvation, obviously you can't have salvation by justification alone either, that's not one of the five solas.

Like I said, sola fide is just short for justification by faith alone. So, I’m not sure what your point is.

I keep bringing up substitionary atonement because that's how justification works - our sins transferred to our lord and savior who has no sin of his own. If you don't have faith IN Christ's substitionary atonement, you can't be justified. Does that make sense to you, mister? Still doesn't?

What does this have to do with anything? I have affirmed that multiple times. At this point, you’re arguing just to argue.

Then go back pounding on your Greek lexicon.

That’s that then.

 

[Exeter]

There are no inherint contradictions about faith alone. God says it's dead to Him, and so it is. People can argue with God about what is alive or dead to Him, based on what they believe it is to them, but it's still true without contradiction, that faith without works, being alone is dead.

The inner contradictions only come with trying to teach faith alone as being alive to justify soul having it.

1. The common teaching of justification by faith alone, is that justification is only by faith alone, and never by nor with works.

That's important to understand, because that forbids any works added to one's faith alone, lest their faith is not alone, being with works: For faith alone apart from works to ever justify a person, then any faith with works must never justify the soul.

It's not just that we can be justified by our faith alone, but it's at war against ever being justified by faith with works: Faith Alone must always Stand Alone against ever having works added to it. (Sort of like a shining idol, I mean light, that must always be naked)

Lest faith with works ever justify the soul, then no one must ever add works to their faith, at all. That's equally important, because it forbids any works at all from being added to their faith, and thus mar their faith alone with works.

Whther it's the workd of 'flowering', I mean, 'flowing' fruit, works to justify a soul, no works at all must ever being added to the pristine beauty of one's own justifying Faith ALone. (Like a Goddess of light, she must never be clothed by tawdry works of any kind, whether good or bad...)

Teaching justification is only by faith alone, is teaching against ever having faith with works, lest faith not be alone, having works.

The Bible of course teaches the opposite, but we're showing inherint flaws in teaching, which the Bible has none.

2. The teachers of self-justification, I mean, justification by their very own faith alone, are all not only confessing sinners, but everyone of them confess they surely shall sin again and again, more or less. By their own faith alone, it's never 'if' they sin (as it is for the saints in Christ Jesus), but only 'when' they sin some more and more, or with some less and less.

Well, since by their faith they are sure to be sinning, more or less, then their faith never really is alone without any works at all? Therefore, they are titling their doctrine with the beauty of holy Faith Alone for show, but in truth they are really preaching being jsutified by their own faith, with sins and trespasses.

Afterall, any time they speak of their own works, it's always about how sure they are to sin yesterday, today, and tomorrow, if it comes. (Some even compete to be the worst of sinners, like their most favorite leader they call 'Paul'. And so we know their faith is never ever alone at all...)

3. And finally, some preach against their justificationi by actually attacking the Goddess Faith Alone, and demand that works do flower and flow, more the merrier. They do allow varying timeline to begin producing those buds, but in the end they must depart from Faith Alone, and have faith with works.

And so once again, having faith with works, they are no more justified by their jilted Faith Alone of yore. (Which seems fair. I mean if She's the only justifying faith for man, then why should she have to continue to justify anyone scorning her as some old used up hag?)

Can you edit the incorrect spelling if inherent, please. PLEASE.

 

[JLB]

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the word "repent".

Apparently you don’t understand what the biblical word repent means.

Repent as it is used in the Gospel, means turn to God.

If a person is called to turn to God, (in submission to Him as Lord) then by default they are called to turn away from Satan as their lord.

At this point it is focused, not on sin, but on changing who is your Lord and therefore changing which kingdom you are in.

A person who does not have the Holy Spirit empowering a new divine nature lacks the ability to turn away from.

Words of Christ in red —


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
Acts 26:17-20

 

[Hopeful 2]

Apparently you don’t understand what the biblical word repent means.
Repent as it is used in the Gospel, means turn to God.

If he turns TO God, hasn't he turned FROM sin ?

If a person is called to turn to God, (in submission to Him as Lord) then by default they are called to turn away from Satan as their lord.

Yep, which would naturally preclude sin.

At this point it is focused, not on sin, but on changing who is your Lord and therefore changing which kingdom you are in.

Isn't sin included in your "it" ?
How can a man change who his Lord is if he is still serving the old lord ?
("Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." John 8:34)

A person who does not have the Holy Spirit empowering a new divine nature lacks the ability to turn away from.

I wonder, then, why Peter commanded repentance, and then he promised the gift of the Holy Ghost afterwards ? (Acts 2:38)

Words of Christ in red —
I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
Acts 26:17-20

Man can't turn TO God without turning FROM sin.
Jesus said..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." (Matt 6:24)
Sinners hate God.

 

[JLB]

If he turns TO God, hasn't he turned FROM sin ?

Does an unregenerate person know what sin is? I asked you to show me a scripture whare the call of the Gospel was to repent of sins.

The call of the Gospel is to repent. This is about changing who your Lord is and changing what Kingdom you are in?

Repent means to turn to God, by turning away from Satan as your Lord.

The way we obey this command is to confess Jesus Christ as LORD.


Once a person has a new nature empowered by the Spirit, then they can begin to walk according to the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

I wonder, then, why Peter commanded repentance, and then he promised the gift of the Holy Ghost afterwards ? (Acts 2:38)

Because the baptism with the Holy Spirit was always on the Day of Pentecost, as Jesus said.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

 

[Hopeful 2]

Does an unregenerate person know what sin is?

Yes, as all men were born with a conscience.

I asked you to show me a scripture whare the call of the Gospel was to repent of sins.

Here are three..."
"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:32)
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." (Luke 15:7)
"Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." (Luke 15:10)
It is sinners doing the "turning"

The call of the Gospel is to repent. This is about changing who your Lord is and changing what Kingdom you are in?

As sinners are the servants of sin, (John 8:34), the change of lordship must be from sin and to God.

Repent means to turn to God, by turning away from Satan as your Lord.

It would be, if you were repenting of serving satan.

The way we obey this command is to confess Jesus Christ as LORD.

Which command do you refer to ?

Once a person has a new nature empowered by the Spirit, then they can begin to walk according to the Spirit.

Thank God for that.
That walk begins with a turn.
Acts 3:26..."Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

[RBDERRICK]

No, as "the name of Jesus Christ" is the same as "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit".

Ok. There are the Acts 2:38 preachers that also insist on the proper repetition of words.

Mat 6:7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Those were not the point of Paul's writings opposing works.

True. Paul writes against being justified by works of the law, which is being unjustified by faith, until doing a work of the law.

Act 15:1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

If we are not justified by faith, until after doing the law, then faith is made of none effect to justify the believer, until after doing the law.

Rom 10:17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Gal 3:2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
If we are not justified until after doing the law of Christ, then faith and the Spirit are received by works of the law. Or, having the faith of the Spirit of Christ by hearing is without effect, until after doing the law of Christ:

Gal 3:17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gen 17:13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

If we must needs be baptized to enter into the covenant of Christ, then we are made debtors to the law of baptism, even as to the law of circumcision.

"And certain men which came out taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be baptised after the manner of water, ye cannot be saved."

Gal 2:4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

False justification by works of the law, is preaching any work of the law of Christ must needs be done, in order to become justified by Christ and partake of His covenant.

They seek to bring us into bondage to the law to do it, else we cannot be saved, and salvation by grace through the faith and Spirit of Christ by hearing, is made of none effect.

The only thing that can hinder baptism's effect is either a false repentance from sin or lack of faith.

When the effect of any work of the law, is to make faith of none effect, until after the work of law is done, then the faith and Spirit of Christ recieved by hearing, is made of none effect to justify the soul.

Gal 2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

If no believer is justified by recieving the faith of Jesus and Spirit of Christ, until after water baptism, then no man is justified by Christ: For by the works of the law shall no man justified.

Whether the law comes after 430 years, or doing the law comes one day or hour after recieving the faith of Jesus by hearing, it cannot make the promise of faith in Jesus Christ disannulled, nor make having the Spirit by faith of none effect to sanctify and justify the believer.

That topic precluded circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, etc. for salvation.

And continues with any work of the law of Christ, such as water baptism with hands, bread and wine communion as sacrament, congregating into one place, etc...

Until ye be batpsied with water...until ye partake of bread and wine communion...until ye congregate with believers into one place, ye cannot be saved. Until ye do a work of the law of Christ, ye cannot be saved...

Once any work of the law of Christ is commanded necessary to first become justified by faith, then justification is by works of the law.

If we are not justified by faith, until after doing a work of law, then we are not justified by faith from hearing.

Those "works" are "of the Law".

True. They are works of the law of Moses including flesh circumcision, which must needs be done on the 8th day, to enter into the covenant of the God of Israel by Moses.

Water baptism is the law of Christ, which if must needs be done on any day, to enter into the covenant of Christ, then it becomes the covenant of baptism, even as the covenant of circumcision must needs be entered into by flesh circumcision.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Because the baptism with the Holy Spirit was always on the Day of Pentecost, as Jesus said.

That doesn't answer my question regarding why did Peter command repentance, before he promised the gift of the Holy Ghost ?
Your personal opinion is that the gift of the Holy Ghost precedes a turn from sin.
I can't agree with that.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Those I have baptized already believed it was necessary for the remission of past sins.

And if not, do you baptize them? Or, do they need seek another?

And if they do believe the same as you, must they seek baptizers like you?

 

[RBDERRICK]

But it is off topic.

Circumcision of Christ is no more off topic from baptism of Christ, than sanctification of Christ is off topic from justification of Christ:

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

If faith genders no action, it is a dead faith.

True. And if works of the law gender justification, then justification is by works of the law, and not by faith of hearing.

Show faith without action, and I will show faith by action.

It's not possible to show faith without action, else faith is not shown, or show is not show.

Show justification by faith with bad action, and we see justification by one's own faith alone.

The only thing that can hinder baptism's effect is either a false repentance from sin or lack of faith.

True. Just as any other work of the law without faith of repentance. Works of the law are not justiied without faith.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is not liscentious liberty from doing His law, but is keeping His commandments with a pure heart by faith.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Mat 5:20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Any obedience to the law without faith, is unjustifed works of the law. Any works without faith are unjustified works of our own, whether good or bad.

Dead works are any works without Christ

Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 

[Hopeful 2]

Ok. There are the Acts 2:38 preachers that also insist on the proper repetition of words.
Mat 6:7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Yes, there are.

True. Paul writes against being justified by works of the law, which is being unjustified by faith, until doing a work of the law.
Act 15:1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Yep.

If we are not justified by faith, until after doing the law, then faith is made of none effect to justify the believer, until after doing the law.

Yep.

If we must needs be baptized to enter into the covenant of Christ, then we are made debtors to the law of baptism, even as to the law of circumcision.

Baptism is the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is not part of the Mosaic Law.

False justification by works of the law, is preaching any work of the law of Christ must needs be done, in order to become justified by Christ and partake of His covenant.

Yep.

They seek to bring us into bondage to the law to do it, else we cannot be saved, and salvation by grace through the faith and Spirit of Christ by hearing, is made of none effect.
If no believer is justified by recieving the faith of Jesus and Spirit of Christ, until after water baptism, then no man is justified by Christ: For by the works of the law shall no man justified.

Again...Baptism is the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is not part of the Mosaic Law.

Whether the law comes after 430 years, or doing the law comes one day or hour after recieving the faith of Jesus by hearing, it cannot make the promise of faith in Jesus Christ disannulled, nor make having the Spirit by faith of none effect to sanctify and justify the believer.

Yep.
The works of the Law are powerless to save.

And continues with any work of the law of Christ, such as water baptism with hands, bread and wine communion as sacrament, congregating into one place, etc...

And now you have removed any opportunity to manifest of our faith.
Essentially, you are saying resisting temptation is of the Law and we must not use the Law for anything.
Your post is dangerously close to the "don't do anything" crowd's message.

Until ye be batpsied with water...until ye partake of bread and wine communion...until ye congregate with believers into one place, ye cannot be saved. Until ye do a work of the law of Christ, ye cannot be saved...

I don't know of any scriptures advising communion in order to be a convert.
Those who are not water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins will carry their sins to the day of judgement.
They will also be walking in the "flesh", as their old man wasn't destroyed.
And they won't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life-reborn.

Once any work of the law of Christ is commanded necessary to first become justified by faith, then justification is by works of the law.

You are adding to scripture.
Show one verse where Paul writes against the law of Christ.

If we are not justified by faith, until after doing a work of law, then we are not justified by faith from hearing.

Where is your verse saying we are justified by hearing ?

Water baptism is the law of Christ,

Show the verse saying that.

which if must needs be done on any day, to enter into the covenant of Christ,

Show the verse saying that.

then it becomes the covenant of baptism, even as the covenant of circumcision must needs be entered into by flesh circumcision.

Without the shedding of blood, there is no covenant.
What blood is shed at baptism ?

I am starting to worry about you.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And if not, do you baptize them?

I wouldn't baptize them if they didn't believe in it.

Or, do they need seek another?

Another what ?

And if they do believe the same as you, must they seek baptizers like you?

Whoever does the water baptism doesn't matter.
The faith of the one being baptized is what counts.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Circumcision of Christ is no more off topic from baptism of Christ, than sanctification of Christ is off topic from justification of Christ:

Here is what I responded to..."By the baptism and circumcision of the heart by the Spirit of Christ, as well as crucifixion the old man, which is immediately upon repentance from dead works by the faith of Jesus."
I disagreed.
Start a new thread.

True. And if works of the law gender justification, then justification is by works of the law, and not by faith of hearing.

Yes, but we are not talking about the Law of Moses.
You inserted that in, and just muddied the water.

It's not possible to show faith without action, else faith is not shown, or show is not show.

?

Show justification by faith with bad action, and we see justification by one's own faith alone.

OK.

True. Just as any other work of the law without faith of repentance. Works of the law are not justiied without faith.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is not liscentious liberty from doing His law, but is keeping His commandments with a pure heart by faith.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Mat 5:20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Any obedience to the law without faith, is unjustifed works of the law. Any works without faith are unjustified works of our own, whether good or bad.

Dead works are any works without Christ

Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,