Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[JLB]

The Greek word for justified has more than one meaning, depending on the context.

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo" is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Looks like all the meanings you listed have the word righteous in them, as I stated.

At the end of the day is means righteous; right with God

Do you believe Abraham would have been justified if he had disobeyed God?

 

[Free]

Looks like all the meanings you listed have the word righteous in them, as I stated.

That is not what you stated and this comment shows a lack of willingness to understand anything differently from what you already believe. That "all the meanings . . . have the word righteous in them" is irrelevant. You stated: "I gave the definition of justified, in James 2:21, James 2:24 which means declared to be righteous." But that is not what it means there. It is the second definition given above, not the third one.

If James was saying that we are declared righteous by our works, then he is in direct contradiction to Paul. Many times and in various ways Paul makes it absolutely clear that not a single person will be justified by their works. He says that that is a false gospel and one who teaches that is to be considered accursed (Gal. 1:6-10).

James is talking about works being the evidence ("shown to be righteous") of having a saving faith.

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (ESV)

The context is this:

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
...
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (ESV)

James is very clearly making the point that no works is evidence of a dead faith, hence its opposite--words are evidence of a true faith.

Do you believe Abraham would have been justified if he had disobeyed God?

Abraham was justified by faith, not his obedience; his obedience was proof of his faith.

 

[Walpole]

That is not what you stated and this comment shows a lack of willingness to understand anything differently from what you already believe. That "all the meanings . . . have the word righteous in them" is irrelevant. You stated: "I gave the definition of justified, in James 2:21, James 2:24 which means declared to be righteous." But that is not what it means there. It is the second definition given above, not the third one.

If James was saying that we are declared righteous by our works, then he is in direct contradiction to Paul. Many times and in various ways Paul makes it absolutely clear that not a single person will be justified by their works. He says that that is a false gospel and one who teaches that is to be considered accursed (Gal. 1:6-10).

James is talking about works being the evidence ("shown to be righteous") of having a saving faith.

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (ESV)

The context is this:

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
...
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (ESV)

James is very clearly making the point that no works is evidence of a dead faith, hence its opposite--words are evidence of a true faith.


Abraham was justified by faith, not his obedience; his obedience was proof of his faith.

James 2:21-24 --> Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

The only time the Scriptures mention "faith alone" is a condemnation of it.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Free]

James 2:21-24 --> Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

The only time the Scriptures mention "faith alone" is a condemnation of it.

It's hard not to notice that you didn't bother trying to address the points I made. It is the meaning of "justification" that matters. No one is "declared righteous" by works, not even Abraham. While "not by faith only" may be the closest we get to the literal statement "faith alone," the concept is taught repeatedly throughout the NT, including by Christ himself:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (ESV)

Simple belief in Christ, in his name. That is why John and Paul repeat the idea that it is by faith alone:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (ESV)


Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. (ESV)

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,
Rom 4:12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.
Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
Rom 4:18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”
Rom 4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” (ESV)

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
…
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. (ESV)

Notice in Romans the repeated use of "free gift." If justification was a result of works, it completely ceases to be a free gift and becomes what is owed (Rom. 4:4).

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Here Paul shows that salvation is "not a result of works," but is God's gift by his grace. This is the biblical position on being declared righteous, the initial moment of salvation.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, (ESV)

Adding works to faith in order to be declared righteous is a false gospel. Paul makes that clear many times. The NT unequivocally states that justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Justification being the moment we are declared righteous with Christ's righteousness imputed to us.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Greek word for justified has more than one meaning, depending on the context.

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo" is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Dikaioo Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (NAS)

Abraham was justified (shown to be righteous) and not accounted as righteous by works when he offered up Isaac on the altar. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Hi Dan,
There is ALSO the evidence of faith.
But pay attention to what that evidence means:

NO EVIDENCE = NO SALVATION

If by works we want to say that they are the EVIDENCE of our salvation...
then NO WORKS means that we are NOT saved.

Easy. Won't take pages like we usually do.

So, I'd say that, yes, IF we are a believer...
we are REQUIRED to do good works.

IF we don't, then we most probably are not saved.

As to the few posts I've read on THE WORKS OF THE LAW....

Please let's not confuse the works of THE LAW...
with GOOD WORKS.

James is speaking about being saved by faith and good works...
NOT
faith and works of the law.

We are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE.
AFTER we have been justified by GOD (For Carry_Your_Name - who else would we be justified by??)
THEN
we are required to do good works.

Do we REALLY need scripture?
Were we created for good works or not?
Ephesians 2:10

 

[mailmandan]

Looks like all the meanings you listed have the word righteous in them, as I stated.

Do you believe Abraham would have been justified if he had disobeyed God?

There is still a difference between being accounted as righteous by faith (Romans 4:2-3) and shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21, 24) If Abraham would have disobeyed God, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.

 

[mailmandan]

Hi Dan,
There is ALSO the evidence of faith.
But pay attention to what that evidence means:

NO EVIDENCE = NO SALVATION

If by works we want to say that they are the EVIDENCE of our salvation...
then NO WORKS means that we are NOT saved.

Easy. Won't take pages like we usually do.

So, I'd say that, yes, IF we are a believer...
we are REQUIRED to do good works.

IF we don't, then we most probably are not saved.

As to the few posts I've read on THE WORKS OF THE LAW....

Please let's not confuse the works of THE LAW...
with GOOD WORKS.

James is speaking about being saved by faith and good works...
NOT
faith and works of the law.

We are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE.
AFTER we have been justified by GOD (For Carry_Your_Name - who else would we be justified by??)
THEN
we are required to do good works.

Do we REALLY need scripture?
Were we created for good works or not?
Ephesians 2:10

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. We are saved FOR good works and not by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now which good works could a Christian do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

So, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law of Moses. In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. So, "not saved by works" is not merely limited to specific works under the law of Moses but also includes works in general.

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. We are saved FOR good works and not by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Once again Dan...and for the thousandth time:
We are speaking about SAVED PERSONS.....
Unsaved persons are NOT REQUIRED to do good works.
THEY ARE LOST, no amount of good works will save them.

Could we get past the salvation part?
NO CHRISTIAN I know believes we are saved by good works.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

Amen.
OK.
So you agree that we must do good works and feed the hungry when we can?

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now which good works could a Christian do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

None.
Who said we could do good works without the Holy Spirit working in us?
Not me.
Not ANY Christian I know.

So, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law of Moses. In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling,

We are NOT speaking about the law of Moses.
Works of righteousness are not salvific and we return to having to state that we are not saved by works.

You bring up 2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
What does this have to do with our discussion?
We ALL agree that we are not saved by works.

not according to our works.. So, "not saved by works" is not merely limited to specific works under the law of Moses but also includes works in general.

Agreed !

What is under discussion here is whether we are REQUIRED to do good works.
What the NT teaches is that WE ARE REQUIRED to do good works....
and we cannot wiggle our way out of that.

Our sanctification is tied to our justification.
Jesus ORDERED us to do good works.
Paul teaches that we are to do good works.

If we DO NOT do good works, we are disobeying Jesus.
We are not following the teachings of Paul.

If we do not OBEY God we will become lost due to our disobedience.
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 

[Free]

Once again Dan...and for the thousandth time:
We are speaking about SAVED PERSONS.....
Unsaved persons are NOT REQUIRED to do good works.
THEY ARE LOST, no amount of good works will save them.

Could we get past the salvation part?
NO CHRISTIAN I know believes we are saved by good works.

There are at least three in this thread that profess to be Christians who say good works are required for justification. That is rather the main point of the OP and topic of this thread.

Amen.
OK.
So you agree that we must do good works and feed the hungry when we can?


None.
Who said we could do good works without the Holy Spirit working in us?
Not me.
Not ANY Christian I know.

We are NOT speaking about the law of Moses.
Works of righteousness are not salvific and we return to having to state that we are not saved by works.

You bring up 2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
What does this have to do with our discussion?
We ALL agree that we are not saved by works.

Agreed !

What is under discussion here is whether we are REQUIRED to do good works.
What the NT teaches is that WE ARE REQUIRED to do good works....
and we cannot wiggle our way out of that.

Our sanctification is tied to our justification.
Jesus ORDERED us to do good works.
Paul teaches that we are to do good works.

If we DO NOT do good works, we are disobeying Jesus.
We are not following the teachings of Paul.

If we do not OBEY God we will become lost due to our disobedience.
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

It seems to me that you both actually agree on everything.

 

[JLB]

That "all the meanings . . . have the word righteous in them" is irrelevant.

I disagree.

The fact that all the different meanings he listed have the word righteous in them, then we can logically conclude that righteous is the base or foundational meaning of justified.

Again, I ask you to honestly answer my question.

Would Abraham have been justified if he disobeyed the Lord?

 

[JLB]

There is still a difference between being accounted as righteous by faith (Romans 4:2-3) and shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21, 24) If Abraham would have disobeyed God, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.

Do you believe Abraham would have been justified is he disobeyed God?

 

[JLB]

There are at least three in this thread that profess to be Christians who say good works are required for justification.

Obedience is required for justification; the obedience of faith.

Not good works.

Surely you don’t believe people who are disobedient to God are justified?

They way we obey the Gospel is to confess Jesus Christ as LORD.

Those who disobey the Gospel are not justified.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16

 

[Hopeful 2]

Do you believe Abraham would have been justified is he disobeyed God?

I do not believe anyone will be saved if they disobey God.

 

[mailmandan]

Once again Dan...and for the thousandth time:

We are speaking about SAVED PERSONS.....

Unsaved persons are NOT REQUIRED to do good works.

THEY ARE LOST, no amount of good works will save them.

No amount of good works will save unbelievers (Matthew 7:22-23) or believers. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Could we get past the salvation part?
NO CHRISTIAN I know believes we are saved by good works.

Christians understand that we are saved FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Only "nominal" Christians/make believers teach salvation by works.

Amen.

OK.

So, you agree that we must do good works and feed the hungry when we can?

It's not about must but will. Good works are not forced or legalistic for genuine Christians. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

What the NT teaches is that WE ARE REQUIRED to do good works....
and we cannot wiggle our way out of that.

Matthew 5:16 - In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Titus 3:8 - This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Our sanctification is tied to our justification.
Jesus ORDERED us to do good works.
Paul teaches that we are to do good works.

We are to do good works. Not to become or remain saved but because we are saved. Good works are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God.

If we DO NOT do good works, we are disobeying Jesus.
We are not following the teachings of Paul.

For someone to claim they are saved but produce no good works at all is an oxymoron. That would not be genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.

If we do not OBEY God we will become lost due to our disobedience.
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Salvation by obedience/works at the back door is not in view in John 3:36. In regard to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on our obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

Now the King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." To refuse to believe in the Son is to disobey, rebel, be disloyal and refuse conformity. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

 

[mailmandan]

Do you believe Abraham would have been justified is he disobeyed God?

If Abraham truly believed God and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6, (he did, and it was) then he would not have disobeyed God in Genesis 22. To disobey God here would have required a lack of faith.

 

[mailmandan]

Obedience is required for justification; the obedience of faith.

Not good works.

Surely you don’t believe people who are disobedient to God are justified?

They way we obey the Gospel is to confess Jesus Christ as LORD.

Those who disobey the Gospel are not justified.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:1)
We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16)

 

[GodsGrace]

There are at least three in this thread that profess to be Christians who say good works are required for justification. That is rather the main point of the OP and topic of this thread.

Hi Free,
I can't go back and read all the posts.
I THINK those 3 posters must mean something different.
We are saved by faith alone,,,no amount of good works can save a person
if they don't have faith in God.

An atheist could do many good works, but his unbelief will hold him back from salvation...
or, at least, that's what the NT teaches.

It seems to me that you both actually agree on everything.

LOL
I've been back and forth with mailmandan for about 10 years now and I don't think we agree.
There's a nuance here that we can't seem to dismantle.

Here's why: I keep asking this question and he keeps evading it .
The question is this:
Are we required to do good works after salvation?
My answer is YES. The NT clearly teaches that we are to obey...if we obey we will be doing good works.
Jesus said this, Paul, James -- all the writers.

Would YOU have a problem with a simple YES?

 

[GodsGrace]

There is still a difference between being accounted as righteous by faith (Romans 4:2-3) and shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21, 24) If Abraham would have disobeyed God, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.

So then....
Abraham was REQUIRED to do the good work(s).

This is my whole point ....
Why is it not possible for you to reply YES to my forever question:
ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION?

 

[GodsGrace]

No amount of good works will save unbelievers (Matthew 7:22-23) or believers. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

We agree. You could stop repeating this and get to the core of the misunderstanding.

Christians understand that we are saved FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Only "nominal" Christians/make believers teach salvation by works.

OK...but I don't know what a nominal Christian is.
Can a woman be nominally pregnant?
No.
One is either a Christian or he is not.
No in between status as far as I can understand.

It's not about must but will. Good works are not forced or legalistic for genuine Christians. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

OK
And here is where we separate.
You say we WILL do good works.
Really?
With all this talk about faith alone many express the idea that Jesus did it ALL,,,
and man needs do NOTHING at all for his salvation.
So do you disgree with the above statement?

If you DO,,,then you should stop saying that we WILL do good works
and begin saying, as I do, that we MUST do good works.

Otherwise the message of the NT will NOT get through to some persons.

And
IF they disobey, are they still saved?
Can a person disobey God all their life and still be saved?

YOU are encouraging disobedience Dan.

Matthew 5:16 - In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Titus 3:8 - This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Right.
And look at the verse you posted,
Titus 3:8......THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD SHOULD BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS.....
(your wording)....

Sounds like a warning.
We SHOULD BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS.

It doesn't sound like something we will just automatically do when and IF we want to....
but it sounds like something we NEED to do.

To be CAREFUL about something is an inherent warning.

We are to do good works. Not to become or remain saved but because we are saved. Good works are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God.

I'd have to say that we must do good works to REMAIN saved.
If we disobey the NT can we continue to be saved?
I'd say this is at the core of all our discussions.

If God COMMANDS something (in this case good works)...
I'd say we are FORCED to do what is commanded.
So I disagree with this part of your understanding of the NT.

For someone to claim they are saved but produce no good works at all is an oxymoron. That would not be genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.

Again....we are either saved or not.
Good works are surely a sign of salvation...

so, again...
NO WORKS = NO SALVATION
OBEDIENCE = SALVATION

Salvation by obedience/works at the back door is not in view in John 3:36. In regard to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on our obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

Same old argument Dan.
John 3:36 can be translated using BELIEVE in both instances.
It doesn't matter.
BELIEVE means TO OBEY.

IF we believe in Jesus,,,if means we will OBEY HIM.

In Greek to disobey means to disbelieve, and V V.

I don't think it's necessary to use the Greek language...the NT is very clear on this.

And

Colossians 2:23-24 kills your idea that good works are done for men...to show our salvation:
23 Whatever * you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than * for men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.



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