Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[RBDERRICK]

I wouldn't baptize them if they didn't believe in it.

So, you make sure they believe in it? Or do you not ask for conscience sake? Or, do they have to confess their faith in Jesus, and in having their sins remitted by water?

Must they that believe in it, be baptized only by one that believes in it? Must the one baptizing say, "I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins", and not just in the name of Jesus Christ?

If the one baptizing with water does not believe in it, are none of them baptized forgiven of old repented sins by the Lord?

 

[Hopeful 2]

So, you make sure they believe in it?

Of course.

Or do you not ask for conscience sake? Or, do they have to confess their faith in Jesus, and in having their sins remitted by water?

If they don't believe the teachings, they won't be baptized.

Must they that believe in it, be baptized only by one that believes in it?

No, as the baptizer isn't the power behind what happens at baptism.

Must the one baptizing say, "I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins", and not just in the name of Jesus Christ?

Either one will do.

If the one baptizing with water does not believe in it, are none of them baptized forgiven of old repented sins by the Lord?

The responsibility hangs entirely on those being baptized.
They are the ones with, or without, the faith to make things happen.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Baptism is the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is not part of the Mosaic Law.

And here we see the real error of justificaton by works of law. It's remission of sins by a work of the law.

Recieving Christ and His faith by repentance, is made of none effect. Jesus Christ's faith and Spirit is declared insufficient and powerless to forgive sins, until a work of law is done.

Baptism is the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is not part of the Mosaic Law.

Circumcision was commanded by law of Moses. It's a work of law of Moses.

Water baptism is commanded law by Christ. It's work of law of Christ.

Works of the law are not being preached against, whether that of Moses or Christ. Remission of sins by works of either law, is being condemned.

The subject is justification by works of law, not the change of law from Moses to Christ.

The new covenant faith of Jesus Christ is recieved freely by grace with repentance. His faith is declared unjustified, if remission of sins is only by a work of law, whether it be flesh circumcision commanded by Moses, or water baptism commanded by Christ.

Again...Baptism is the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is not part of the Mosaic Law.

Baptism in water is commanded because of remission of past sins, which is by repentance and confession of the faith of Jesus.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If any work of law is commanded necessary to be saved, else ye cannot be saved, then the Scripture of repentance from the heart with confession of faith in Jesus Christ, is rejected as insufficient to save the soul.

Again...Baptism is the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is not part of the Mosaic Law.

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If we must be baptised with water to be forgiven of sins, then if we sin, we must be baptised with water to be forgiven of sinning.

If we sin, the Scripture of forgiveness by repentance and confession, is once again rejected as insufficient to forgive sins.

Yep.
The works of the Law are powerless to save.

True. And this contradicts remission of sin by a work of law.

Water baptism cannot be preached necessary for remission of sins, and yet powerless to save. Unless, remission of sins is not salvation.

And now you have removed any opportunity to manifest of our faith.

Scripture is removing any opportunity believers have to remit other believers' sins by water baptism.

Essentially, you are saying resisting temptation is of the Law

I'm not the one saying remissions of sins is of the law.

and we must not use the Law for anything.

The law is not used to remit sins by keeping it.

I don't know of any scriptures advising communion in order to be a convert.

Nor of being water baptised. Any work of the law used to remit sins is jsutification by works of the law, disannullinig having the faith and Spirit of Christ by hearing with repentance.

Those who are not water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins will carry their sins to the day of judgement.
They will also be walking in the "flesh", as their old man wasn't destroyed.
And they won't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life-reborn.

Then Christ sent not Paul to save souls.

1Co 1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

And he thanked God no more were saved, than only a few.

Show one verse where Paul writes against the law of Christ.

No. Because Christ never writes any verse against His own law.

9. Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions. Let them state their own beliefs and arguments.

Where is your verse saying we are justified by hearing ?

Where is the verse saying we are not justified, when recieving the Spirit by hearing?

Gal 3:2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Such as, we are not justified by having the Spirit through hearing of faith, until doing a work of law.

Show the verse saying that.

Jas 2:10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

The commandments of the Lord, are the law of Christ. And His word is law.

Keeping the comandments of the Lord, is doing His law and word.

Flesh circumcision is work of law commanded by Moses, and water baptism is work of law of Christ commanded by Christ.

Show the verse saying that.

That's the doctrine of entering into the covenant of Christ by remission of sins through the work of water bapstim. Unless, remission of sins is not entering into covenant of Christ.

Remission of sins by water baptism becomes the covenant of water baptism, even as it was the covenant of circumcison by circumcision of the flesh.

Without the shedding of blood, there is no covenant.
What blood is shed at baptism ?

Are you saying remission of sins by repentance and faith of Christ, is not having part in the covenant of Christ?

I am starting to worry about you.

2. Focus on the issue being discussed. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.

It's a sure sign of a flailing argument.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Here is what I responded to..."By the baptism and circumcision of the heart by the Spirit of Christ, as well as crucifixion the old man, which is immediately upon repentance from dead works by the faith of Jesus."

Baptism and circumcision of Christ is the operation of the Spirit to sanctify and justify them that repent with the faith of Jesus.

It forbids remission of sins only by water baptism.

Wating on doing a work of law to be forgiven of past sins, makes having the Spirit of Christ by hearing of faith of none effect, and powerless to sanctify and justify the soul, until commanded work of law is done.

Yes, but we are not talking about the Law of Moses.

Then why did you bring in law of Moses?

You inserted that in, and just muddied the water.

That would be effort to apply works of law only to that of Moses, and not to that of Christ.

The Scripture against remission of sins by works of law, applies to any work of law, whether of Moses or of Christ.

Galatians is not an argument of law between Moses and Christ, but is a rebuke of not being justified by faith, until a work of law is done.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And here we see the real error of justificaton by works of law. It's remission of sins by a work of the law.

I would like you to show me where Moses commanded baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
If you can't, then it is NOT a work of the Law.

Recieving Christ and His faith by repentance, is made of none effect. Jesus Christ's faith and Spirit is declared insufficient and powerless to forgive sins, until a work of law is done.





Circumcision was commanded by law of Moses. It's a work of law of Moses.

Water baptism is commanded law by Christ. It's work of law of Christ.

Works of the law are not being preached against, whether that of Moses or Christ. Remission of sins by works of either law, is being condemned.

The subject is justification by works of law, not the change of law from Moses to Christ.

The new covenant faith of Jesus Christ is recieved freely by grace with repentance. His faith is declared unjustified, if remission of sins is only by a work of law, whether it be flesh circumcision commanded by Moses, or water baptism commanded by Christ.




Baptism in water is commanded because of remission of past sins, which is by repentance and confession of the faith of Jesus.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If any work of law is commanded necessary to be saved, else ye cannot be saved, then the Scripture of repentance from the heart with confession of faith in Jesus Christ, is rejected as insufficient to save the soul.



1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If we must be baptised with water to be forgiven of sins, then if we sin, we must be baptised with water to be forgiven of sinning.

If we sin, the Scripture of forgiveness by repentance and confession, is once again rejected as insufficient to forgive sins.




True. And this contradicts remission of sin by a work of law.

Water baptism cannot be preached necessary for remission of sins, and yet powerless to save. Unless, remission of sins is not salvation.



Scripture is removing any opportunity believers have to remit other believers' sins by water baptism.



I'm not the one saying remissions of sins is of the law.




The law is not used to remit sins by keeping it.




Nor of being water baptised. Any work of the law used to remit sins is jsutification by works of the law, disannullinig having the faith and Spirit of Christ by hearing with repentance.





Then Christ sent not Paul to save souls.

1Co 1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

And he thanked God no more were saved, than only a few.



No. Because Christ never writes any verse against His own law.

9. Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions. Let them state their own beliefs and arguments.



Where is the verse saying we are not justified, when recieving the Spirit by hearing?

Gal 3:2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Such as, we are not justified by having the Spirit through hearing of faith, until doing a work of law.





Jas 2:10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

The commandments of the Lord, are the law of Christ. And His word is law.

Keeping the comandments of the Lord, is doing His law and word.

Flesh circumcision is work of law commanded by Moses, and water baptism is work of law of Christ commanded by Christ.





That's the doctrine of entering into the covenant of Christ by remission of sins through the work of water bapstim. Unless, remission of sins is not entering into covenant of Christ.

Remission of sins by water baptism becomes the covenant of water baptism, even as it was the covenant of circumcison by circumcision of the flesh.




Are you saying remission of sins by repentance and faith of Christ, is not having part in the covenant of Christ?




2. Focus on the issue being discussed. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.

It's a sure sign of a flailing argument.

 

[RBDERRICK]

If they don't believe the teachings,

The teaching on water baptism being, that of a certain separatist sect of Christian religion.

The common baptism of the believers is reduced to a sectarian teaching on baptism, rather than upon confession of the common faith of Jesus Christ.

Act 8:36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Scripture bases being baptised upon confession of faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God. The water baptism separatists base being baptised upon their own teaching of water baptism.

It's called proselytizing believers into one's own teaching of works, rather than preaching the common faith of Jesus Christ.

Such separatists do not come out to remind believers of the importance of such works, but rather to recruit other believers into the sect. The more powerfully destructive way of doing so, is by convincing the unstable of a need of works or new teaching, else ye cannot be saved by the Spirit of Christ recieved by hearing of faith.

1Co 1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Christ commanded Paul not to baptize, but only to preach the gospel of the cross for salvation. The Lord knowing all things arising in His church, such as the new sects dividing His body, He did not want His apostle to become ensnared in any separatist theology made out of water baptism.

Afterall, if Paul had practiced baptizing every new believer in Christ, then the charge could be made that he did so to save them, as by water and hands of men. But by commandment of the Lord not to baptize, he could readily preach the gospel of faith in Jesus Christ for remission of sins, without hands of men.

As with flesh circumcision so with water baptism:

Col 2:10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:...Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Act 17:24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

2Co 5:1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Both flesh circumcisers and water baptizers, that preach such works of law unto salvation, are declaring no believer is complete in Christ by having and confessing His faith of repentance: Their hands must first be laid on the believer for outward circumcision or baptism, else ye cannot be completely forgiven of sins and justified with Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I would like you to show me where Moses commanded baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
If you can't, then it is NOT a work of the Law.

Jas 2:10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

I would like you show where in the Scripture, that commandments of the Lord are not His law.

If you can't even try, then the Lord's commands to His churches, are His law.

The Lord's command to water baptise, is a work of the law of Christ in His churches.

A sure sign of false teaching of any Scripture, is when more Scripture must be changed or rendered senseless, in order to keep the teaching.

Such is the case with some Acts 2:38 baptism teachers, that must then deny the Lord's command to water baptise, is not a work of His law. Or, perhaps the 'act' of water baptism is not a work at all? Like maybe an act of joy, that is not work?

 

[Hopeful 2]

The teaching on water baptism being, that of a certain separatist sect of Christian religion.

Yes, the original, the church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)

The common baptism of the believers is reduced to a sectarian teaching on baptism, rather than upon confession of the common faith of Jesus Christ
Act 8:36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Scripture bases being baptised upon confession of faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God. The water baptism separatists base being baptised upon their own teaching of water baptism.

Don't they go hand-in-hand ?
An unbeliever won't strive to attain the result of baptism, ie., freedom from sin. (Rom 6:7)

It's called proselytizing believers into one's own teaching of works, rather than preaching the common faith of Jesus Christ.

It is called preaching the truth, and it is spoken of often in Acts.

Such separatists do not come out to remind believers of the importance of such works, but rather to recruit other believers into the sect. The more powerfully destructive way of doing so, is by convincing the unstable of a need of works or new teaching, else ye cannot be saved by the Spirit of Christ recieved by hearing of faith.

You don't seem to be able to separate the works of the Law, which were written against by Paul, from any action taken as a result of faith.
Do you consider Peter's message in Acts 2:38 as the act of a separatist ?
How about Philip's Act 8 message to the Samarians ?
How about Paul's Acts 19 message to the twelve at Ephesus ?

1Co 1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Christ commanded Paul not to baptize, but only to preach the gospel of the cross for salvation.

That is not true.
It is simply a matter of priority, as unbelievers won't get baptized for the remission of past sins.
Preach the news about Jesus first, then baptize, then teach further, etc.

The Lord knowing all things arising in His church, such as the new sects dividing His body, He did not want His apostle to become ensnared in any separatist theology made out of water baptism.

Jesus commanded it in one of His last deeds on earth..."Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matt 28:19)
It would seem that it is you that is the separatist.

Afterall, if Paul had practiced baptizing every new believer in Christ, then the charge could be made that he did so to save them, as by water and hands of men. But by commandment of the Lord not to baptize, he could readily preach the gospel of faith in Jesus Christ for remission of sins, without hands of men.

Except the Lord DID command it...""Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matt 28:19)
Those who won't get baptized for the remission of past sins, and the destruction of the old man, won't be saved.

As with flesh circumcision so with water baptism:
Col 2:10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:...Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Now you have snapped back to reality !
Without baptism, there is no circumcision of the body of the sins of the flesh.
What has made you change your mind ?

Both flesh circumcisers and water baptizers, that preach such works of law unto salvation, are declaring no believer is complete in Christ by having and confessing His faith of repentance: Their hands must first be laid on the believer for outward circumcision or baptism, else ye cannot be completely forgiven of sins and justified with Christ.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is not of the Law.
If you consider adherence to the commands of Christ, Peter, and Paul as "Law keeping", to what Law do you assign
"confessing", and "repentance", and "laying on of hands" ???????

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jas 2:10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
I would like you show where in the Scripture, that commandments of the Lord are not His law.

It is His Father's Law
Jesus' law is Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength...and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

If you can't even try, then the Lord's commands to His churches, are His law.

Then they must be adhered to...correct ?

The Lord's command to water baptise, is a work of the law of Christ in His churches.

Why complicate it ?
It is a command that is to be kept !

A sure sign of false teaching of any Scripture, is when more Scripture must be changed or rendered senseless, in order to keep the teaching.

Didn't you just introduce the "Law of Christ" ?
Are you now admitting its falsity and, hopefully, are repenting of that ?

Such is the case with some Acts 2:38 baptism teachers, that must then deny the Lord's command to water baptise, is not a work of His law. Or, perhaps the 'act' of water baptism is not a work at all? Like maybe an act of joy, that is not work?

I knew you couldn't show that water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins was in the Law of Moses.

 

[RBDERRICK]

An unbeliever won't strive to attain the result of baptism, ie., freedom from sin. (Rom 6:7)

Boasting about works of law to be saved by, couldn't have been put any better.

Matth 12:37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned...for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

The whole rebuke to justification by works of the law, is seeking to attain forgiveness for past sins, by doing the law.

The Catholics call it forgiveness by penitence. The social religions call it redemption from past crimes by good works for society.

Then, there are the religions of salvation by flesh circumcision, water baptism, sabbath keeping, communion, etc...

 

[Hopeful 2]

Boasting about works of law to be saved by, couldn't have been put any better.

Stating fact, isn't boasting.
And baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins in not of the Mosaic Law.

Matth 12:37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned...for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

The whole rebuke to justification by works of the law, is seeking to attain forgiveness for past sins, by doing the law.

The Catholics call it forgiveness by penitence. The social religions call it redemption from past crimes by good works for society.

Then, there are the religions of salvation by flesh circumcision, water baptism, sabbath keeping, communion, etc...

 

[RBDERRICK]

You don't seem to be able to separate the works of the Law, which were written against by Paul, from any action taken as a result of faith.

Paul is not preaching against the works of law nor works of faith. Nor is he arguing the difference between works of law of Moses vs works of Law of Christ.

He is condemning any hands-on work of men, else ye cannot be saved.

Do you consider Peter's message in Acts 2:38 as the act of a separatist ?

The apostles are the foundation of Christ. If any believer sets themselves apart from their doctrine of Christ, then they separate themselves within the body of Christ.

However, if any separatist also damns any member not believing and doing their heresy, as being unredeemed, they they cut off the body of Christ from themselves, and themselves from the body and Head Jesus Christ.

Some believers doctrinally separate themselves from others within the body, but some isolate themselves from the body, unto their own alone.

Some call it making one's own cult.

How about Philip's Act 8 message to the Samarians ?

Act 8:12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

You mean being baptized by faith in Jesus Christ? They were baptized by commandment of the Lord.

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

Great baptizers giving themselves out as the power of God to baptize unto salvation? Perhaps.

How about Paul's Acts 19 message to the twelve at Ephesus ?

Act 19:4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

You mean being baptized by believing on Jesus Christ? They were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ as commanded by the Lord.

Jesus commanded it in one of His last deeds on earth..."Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matt 28:19)

We are commanded to water baptism. And so we teach and do water baptism by the words of the Lord.

There is no argument of Scripture against doing works of Christ's law, nor being baptised according to commandment of the Lord.

That is not true.
It is simply a matter of priority, as unbelievers won't get baptized for the remission of past sins.
Preach the news about Jesus first, then baptize, then teach further, etc.

Changing Scripture to insert personal doctrine, is called wresting the Scripture to one's own destruction by personal doctrine.

Paul reports that He was commanded not to baptise. He was not commanded to not baptise before preaching the gospel of salvation by the faith of Jesus Christ.

A sure sign of failed doctrine, is descending to arguments that make no sense, and changing destroying the common sense of Scripture.

It would seem that it is you that is the separatist.

I certainly am from your personal teaching about Scripture. As well as from your manner of arguing for it.

I personally have no issue with repented new converts to Jesus Christ, that believe their sins are washed away by water baptism. Nor even teaching it.

The only issue I have is when exalt their personal beliefs above Scripture and the body of Christ, and cut off themselves off from the saints, by accusing repented converts of being unredeemed for not personally believing and obeying them.

1Co 4:6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

And I still don't have a personal issue with confessing beleivers going off to believe and do their own things, whether by their own manner of baptism, sabbath keeping, communion, holiness rules, etc...

It's only when they come back to the body of Christ to proslytize new recurits to themselves, that I gladly rebuke their impertinence.

Except the Lord DID command it...""Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matt 28:19)

True. He commands many acts of obedience, incuding water baptism. But He dondemns any act of obedience necessary for Him to forgive souls, after having His Spirit and faith by hearing of repentance.

Doing and keeping the Lord's commanded works of law, is good. Trusting in any of them to forgive sins, is bad.

Those who won't get baptized for the remission of past sins, and the destruction of the old man, won't be saved.

Refusing water baptism, is not justified by the faith of Jesus.

Refusing another teaching on water baptism, is not justified with the faith of other teachers.

And being condemned as an unredeemed believer, for not submitting to their own water baptism, is just so much peevish caterwauling.

Now you have snapped back to reality !
Without baptism, there is no circumcision of the body of the sins of the flesh.
What has made you change your mind ?

Flesh circumcision is not circumcision by the Spirit, nor is water baptism the Spirit's baptism.

Col 2:18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is not of the Law.

If commandment is not of the law, then law is not by command.

If commandment is not kept as law, then it is only by personal choice.

The commandments of the Lord are commandment of law, not guides and suggestions.

If you consider adherence to the commands of Christ, Peter, and Paul as "Law keeping", to what Law do you assign

The law of Christ for His new covenant. The law of Moses was for His old covenant.

Jas 2:10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Scripture of God shows the Lord's commandments are His law. Not keeping His commandments is trasngressing His law.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It is His Father's Law
Jesus' law is Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength...and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Ok. The Son commands water baptism a work of the Father's law. All commanded acts by the Son are works of the Father's law.

The condemnation of justification by works, is by making any commanded work of law, as being necessary to wash away sins by the blood of the Lamb of God, else ye cannot be saved.

In any case, The Father and the Son are one, with one faith, Spirit, and law, which is called the faith, Spirit, and law of Christ in the NT.

Why complicate it ?

The complication is preaching commanded acts to become washed in the blood of the Lamb, and recieve His Spirit.

Some make it confusing, by arguing the law of the Son, is not the law of the Son, but the law of the Father, as though Father and Son are not one with one law.

And that is only after the first confusion of a failed argument, that a commanded act is not a work of law.

Didn't you just introduce the "Law of Christ" ?

Of course. To show a commanded act is a work of law, so that preaching salvation by the commanded act, is being justified by works of law, and not by faith in Jesus Christ.

I knew you couldn't show that water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins was in the Law of Moses.

Well, you were certainly right about that.

Nor is keeping the Lord's communion. Nor is assembling in the churches of Christ. Many things in the NT commandment of Christ were not in the OT Law of Moses.

Knowing the difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ is important. That way NT Christians are doing any works of Moses' law, but only the works of Christ's.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Paul is not preaching against the works of law nor works of faith. Nor is he arguing the difference between works of law of Moses vs works of Law of Christ.

Paul confronted those who wanted to reinstitutionalize circumcision on multiple occasions.
1 Cor 7:19..."Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."
Gal 5:6..."For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
Gal 5:11..."And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased."
Gal 6:15..."For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature."
Acts 15:1-2 are of the same mind.

He is condemning any hands-on work of men, else ye cannot be saved.

Paul fought against nothing of the sort.
His description of the effects of water baptism in Rom 6 is enlightening !


I didn't see you as a proponent of Law keeping in your earliest posts, so now I wonder why you hid it back then.

Act 8:12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
You mean being baptized by faith in Jesus Christ? They were baptized by commandment of the Lord.

No, as where ever "in the name of Jesus Christ" is mentioned it indicates baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins...just as Acts 2:38 said.

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
Great baptizers giving themselves out as the power of God to baptize unto salvation? Perhaps.

Not at all.
You are now revealing that you are an enemy of Peter and of his Acts 2:38 commandments.

Act 19:4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
You mean being baptized by believing on Jesus Christ?

No.
There is no such belief mentioned in God's word/

They were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ as commanded by the Lord.

Yes, for the remission of past sins.
Something you are apparently against.

We are commanded to water baptism. And so we teach and do water baptism by the words of the Lord.
There is no argument of Scripture against doing works of Christ's law, nor being baptised according to commandment of the Lord.

So why were you so against it earlier in this very post ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Ok. The Son commands water baptism a work of the Father's law. All commanded acts by the Son are works of the Father's law.

The condemnation of justification by works, is by making any commanded work of law, as being necessary to wash away sins by the blood of the Lamb of God, else ye cannot be saved.

In any case, The Father and the Son are one, with one faith, Spirit, and law, which is called the faith, Spirit, and law of Christ in the NT.





The complication is preaching commanded acts to become washed in the blood of the Lamb, and recieve His Spirit.

Some make it confusing, by arguing the law of the Son, is not the law of the Son, but the law of the Father, as though Father and Son are not one with one law.

And that is only after the first confusion of a failed argument, that a commanded act is not a work of law.


Of course. To show a commanded act is a work of law, so that preaching salvation by the commanded act, is being justified by works of law, and not by faith in Jesus Christ.



Well, you were certainly right about that.

Nor is keeping the Lord's communion. Nor is assembling in the churches of Christ. Many things in the NT commandment of Christ were not in the OT Law of Moses.

Knowing the difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ is important. That way NT Christians are doing any works of Moses' law, but only the works of Christ's.

The only biblical mention of the "law of Christ", is in Gal 6:2..."Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."
That is just the synopsis of love your neighbor as you love yourself.
You use the term too loosely.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Paul confronted those who wanted to reinstitutionalize circumcision on multiple occasions.
1 Cor 7:19..."Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."
Gal 5:6..."For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
Gal 5:11..."And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased."
Gal 6:15..."For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature."
Acts 15:1-2 are of the same mind.

Not when confronting justification by law.

Paul fought against nothing of the sort.
His description of the effects of water baptism in Rom 6 is enlightening !

The carnal mind does not discern the spiritual things of God.

Rom 6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It's not surprising that a believer putting their trust in water baptism to save, is blind to receiving the Spirit by hearing of faith. All that is seen and understood in the doctrine of baptisms, is their own hands in the water of the world. Not the baptism of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The baptism of the Spirit without hands, is for repenting and crucifying the old life of sinning by the faith of Jesus, not by the hands of men, whether by flesh circumcison or water baptism.

No work of hands of men, whether by commandment of law, or by good will of charity, has any part in Jesus Christ Himself purging His people from their sins.

Heb 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

He does so by Himself. Not with any other man working with Him.

I didn't see you as a proponent of Law keeping in your earliest posts,

9. Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions. Let them state their own beliefs and arguments.

If you want clarification from now on, ask. Otherwise do not insult me with false teaching, that you want to impute to me, so as to sidestep right dividing of Scripture.

Scripture is all about keeping the law of God, including being justified by works of faith.

Justification by the faith of Jesus Christ, is against becoming forgiven, born again, and justified by any work of the law or faith, else ye cannot be saved.

No believer is justified with bad works against the law, and justified believers continue justified with good works within the law.

so now I wonder why you hid it back then.

By James 2, I was refuting justification by faith alone, apart from any works we do.

By Galatians, I now refute justification by works we must do, else we cannot be saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.

No, as where ever "in the name of Jesus Christ" is mentioned it indicates baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins...just as Acts 2:38 said.

If everywhere baptism is spoken of, remission of sins must be included, then so it is everywhere forgiveness of sins is spoken of:

If we confess our sins, (and are baptised) he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If any believer is water baptised to be forgiven of past sins, then if we sin, every believer must be water baptised again for forgivenss of sin.

Forgiveness of sin by confession and faith in Jesus Christ, is made of none effect, until water baptised again as before.

Also, not every Scripture on baptism, is of water baptism. Which is why Scriptrue speaks of doctrine of baptisms.

You are now revealing that you are an enemy of Peter and of his Acts 2:38 commandments.

2. Focus on the issue being discussed. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.

6. Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong,” or any other similar phrase. This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.

Your refusal to understand arguments that you don't want to hear, leads you to false accusation.

Preaching by Scripture against someone's teaching of Scripture, is not necessarily preaching against Scripture. Puffed up teachers trusting in their own doctrine, treat any correction to their teaching as an attack on Scripture.

No.
There is no such belief mentioned in God's word/

Yes, for the remission of past sins.

Citing Scripture of being water baptised by faith in Christ, is not confirming any teaching of water baptism saving the soul.

Scripture does not teach against water baptism, but only be saved by any commanded work of law.

Something you are apparently against.

9. Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions. Let them state their own beliefs and arguments.

So why were you so against it earlier in this very post ?

9. Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions. Let them state their own beliefs and arguments.

Last warning. Do not impute teachings to others, based upon your own corruption of their teaching.

Teaching against a corrupt teaching on water baptism, is not teaching against water baptism.

Scripture condemns doing any work of commandment, law, and faith, before the believer can be forgiven and saved by Jesus Christ.

It makes recieving the faith and having the Spirit by hearing the word, of none effect, until a commanded work of law is accomplished by the believers.

Gal 3:2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 

[RBDERRICK]

The only biblical mention of the "law of Christ", is in Gal 6:2..."Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."
That is just the synopsis of love your neighbor as you love yourself.

So, loving our neighbors is not an act or work?

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Water baptising new converts into the churches of God, is not loving them?

The effort to distance water baptism from a work of law of Christ, is now distancing loving the brethren from works.

James 2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

No man is saved by the act of water baptism, any more than by the acts of bearing one another's burdens, and the acts of giving to the brethren in need.

If we are only newly saved by water baptism, then we are newly saved by every act of law and good work we do.

And if we are not forgiven of sins until water baptism, then if we sin, we must be water baptised to have our sin forgiven.

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Forgiveness of sin by confession and faith in Jesus Christ, is made of none effect, until water baptised again as before.

The baptizer's saving creed: If we confess our sins, (and are water baptised) he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You use the term too loosely.

I've quoted James 2 twice now showing the commandments of the Lord are His law.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Not when confronting justification by law.

Wasn't circumcision of the Law ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

So, loving our neighbors is not an act or work?

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Water baptising new converts into the churches of God, is not loving them?

The effort to distance water baptism from a work of law of Christ, is now distancing loving the brethren from works.

James 2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

No man is saved by the act of water baptism, any more than by the acts of bearing one another's burdens, and the acts of giving to the brethren in need.

If we are only newly saved by water baptism, then we are newly saved by every act of law and good work we do.

And if we are not forgiven of sins until water baptism, then if we sin, we must be water baptised to have our sin forgiven.

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Forgiveness of sin by confession and faith in Jesus Christ, is made of none effect, until water baptised again as before.

The baptizer's saving creed: If we confess our sins, (and are water baptised) he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.






I've quoted James 2 twice now showing the commandments of the Lord are His law.

Your double mindedness makes me want to disengage with you.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Wasn't circumcision of the Law ?

2Ti 2:23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.