Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[RBDERRICK]

I hope to have a good discussion.

Yes, so do I, but first about the argument I make. I certainly would like to see anyone show any flaw in my argument, that is against the inherint contradictions in teaching justification by faith alone.

The argument I made is not about justification, nor faith alone themselves, but about teaching justification by faith alone.

So far, no one that teaches it, has even attempted to do so.

I agree, "faith alone" is not biblical, and once a person understands that faith must have a certain specific work, or action, then they inherently stop using the term "faith alone".

So far, I follow you, and would like to see more. But first I'd like to see my argument addressed, before moving on.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Would it be possible for you to love people you love, Father , Mother, family / friends, and yet when they are in need of your help not help them based on the spirit of love you have for them in your heart, but rather from cold calculating mental machinery adding up the value of the "works" you do for them ?
Why not ?

Nice question, made against cold hearted calculators. Many families of history have had to face it. And I certainly could address it.

But first I'd like to see anyone address the argument made, about inherint flaws in teaching justification by faith alone.

So far, everyone that apparently teaches it, makes a cold and calculating decision to divert from it, by instead just continuing to argue for something, that they must now concede is inherintly flawed.

What we now see is the coldness of them that refuse any correction to what and how they teach something, not even if it were to make their teaching more sound.

 

[Free]

Not true. The argument is against several flaws of contradiction in the teaching of justification by faith alone. It's not about the justification.

If you want to know what the justification itself is, then you need to ask those who teach it.

Yes, true. You are arguing against “faith alone for justification,” which can only mean that you are arguing against a specific meaning of “justification,” otherwise your whole argument is meaningless. If you have no idea what is meant by justification, then it makes no sense to argue against something you don’t know and you should really just stop.

Please, provide a succinct definition of what you mean by justification, and if that is the only definition.

 

[Consecrated Life]

But first I'd like to see anyone address the argument made, about inherint flaws in teaching justification by faith alone.

"Faith" can mean different things to different people .
Before you can discuss faith being the source of works or anything else from a Christain perspective, you need to define what is the source of your faith ?
If you will define both what faith is, and how faith is obtained to your understanding I would be glad to delve into the matter with you .

 

[RBDERRICK]

I'm having a difficult time understanding your OP.

Yes. I'm a mathemitician at heart, and so is God. Sometimes His doctrine is written in what we call analytical geometry. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C.

In this case with Justification A and Faith Alone B: If A =B, then if B changes, then so must A, or A and B are no longer the same.

There is only one place in the entire NT that speaks of faith alone.
It's in James and it's negative.

Exactly.

James was saying how Abraham was justified by his works....they completed his faith.

True again.

We say this too now....
Faith without works is a dead faith.

Not necessarily. Faith alone is dead faith. There must be a difference between having faith alone, that James 2 condemns, and having faith without works, that Rom 4 preaches.

That's the mystery of God's gospel of repentance unto salvation. Our faith must be without works to be imputed righteousness from God, but our faith must be with works to be justified by Christ.

The resolution is not by preaching one or the other, but both: Therefore, all Scripture is necessary, which is found in Heb 4:

Heb 4:10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

God ceased from His own good works, but we must cease from our own bad works. Which are all works done without Christ's Spirit, and so are all bad apart from God.

Repentance from all our own works is therefore not working, but is only ceasing from works repented of. Therefore, repentance is through faith without works, to rest with God by Christ Jesus.

But we cannot DO anything to save ourselves...this is 100% the work of God WHEN we decide to respond to His grace with a Yes.

Correct, in the fact that repenting from our old works is not doing, but is only undoing.

Darkness blinds. If darkness ceases by light, then darkness is no more doing work to blind. So with repentance from dead works of darkness.

And that light is the true light Jesus Christ, for whose sake we repent of all our own works in darkness without God.

After this yes, right, works are necessary to retain that justification.

This is where perhaps I didn't make it clear enough about the teaching of justification by faith alone.

They teach that we are only justified by faith without works. That's when works of faith become anathema to being jsutified. Lest they no longer be justified only by faith alone, faith now having works, and not alone.

If A (justification) is only equal to B (faith alone), then if B changes (faith with works), B is not longer equal to A at all.

He that is justified only by his faith alone, forsakes his own justification, if he ever adds works to his faith, so that his faith is no more alone, being now with works.

I.e. if anyone seeks to ever be justified only by their faith alone, theyare forever forbidden to have any faith with works.

The just by having faith alone, can never live by their faith.

Catholics call it on-going justification.
We call it sanctification.
Same thing.

I'm not so sure about this one. One question: Is justification, and therefore sanctification, complete from the beginning of repentance and faith toward God?

 

[Free]

Yes. I'm a mathemitician at heart, and so is God. Sometimes His doctrine is written in what we call analytical geometry. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C.

Yes, If A=B and B=C then A=C, but that is not what you then demonstrate below.

In this case with Justification A and Faith Alone B: If A =B, then if B changes, then so must A, or A and B are no longer the same.




If A (justification) is only equal to B (faith alone), then if B changes (faith with works), B is not longer equal to A at all.

The conditional statement should be: If justification (A) is by faith alone (B), and faith alone (B) is . . . what? You didn't even give a 'C' condition. Your argument is incomplete, not to mention that you haven't defined "justification" yet.

What does the Bible say? Here is some of it:

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. (ESV)

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (ESV)

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Gal 3:7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
…
Gal 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)

The Bible could not be more clear that we are justified (declared righteous by God) by faith alone; neither by works of the law nor works of righteousness. Any who teach otherwise teach another gospel and Paul says they are to be considered accursed (Gal 1:8). Works are to be done in obedience to Christ and as such are evidence of faith; they never justify, in the sense of being declared righteous by God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, true. You are arguing against “faith alone for justification,” which can only mean that you are arguing against a specific meaning of “justification,” otherwise your whole argument is meaningless.

Perhaps the specifics are lost in too many words. (I tend to do that) So, I'll stick to the specifics:

1. The common teaching of justification by faith alone, is that justification is only by faith alone, and never by nor with works.

The specific justification, that I argue is inherintly flawed, is that justification that is only by faith alone. That justification is never by faith with works, which is not alone.

Those who teach we are only justified by having faith alone, also teach no man is ever justified by faith with works.

And so the flaw is obvious: If we can only be justified by our faith alone, being without works, then our faith must also be alone without works.

If we ever have our faith with works, then our faith does not justify us, because our faith is no more alone, being with works.

That's important to understand, because that forbids any works added to one's faith alone, lest their faith is not alone,

Please, provide a succinct definition of what you mean by justification, and if that is the only definition.

The succint justification, is the justification that is only by having faith alone. That justification is not any kind of justification, that is by faith with works.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, If A=B and B=C then A=C, but that is not what you then demonstrate below.

Of ourse not. It was only the standard example of analytic geometry.

The use of such reasoning is then given, pertaining to justification's relation to faith alone, with A and B.

 

[Free]

Perhaps the specifics are lost in too many words. (I tend to do that) So, I'll stick to the specifics:




The specific justification, that I argue is inherintly flawed, is that justification that is only by faith alone. That justification is never by faith with works, which is not alone.

Those who teach we are only justified by having faith alone, also teach no man is ever justified by faith with works.

And so the flaw is obvious: If we can only be justified by our faith alone, being without works, then our faith must also be alone without works.

If we ever have our faith with works, then our faith does not justify us, because our faith is no more alone, being with works.





The succint justification, is the justification that is only by having faith alone. That justification is not any kind of justification, that is by faith with works.

You keep dancing around and repeating the same thing without actually defining what is meant by "justification." Don't be like all the anti-Trinitarians here that argue against the Trinity, but have yet to demonstrate they even know what the doctrine of the Trinity states. Please provide a succinct definition of justification. If you can't define the very thing you're arguing against, then it means that you don't even know what you're arguing against. Which makes me wonder why you would be arguing against it in the first place.

 

[Free]

Of ourse not. It was only the standard example of analytic geometry.

The use of such reasoning is then given, pertaining to justification's relation to faith alone, with A and B.

So, you didn't really show anything at all then with that "half-resasoning."

 

[GodsGrace]

Nice question, made against cold hearted calculators. Many families of history have had to face it. And I certainly could address it.

But first I'd like to see anyone address the argument made, about inherint flaws in teaching justification by faith alone.

So far, everyone that apparently teaches it, makes a cold and calculating decision to divert from it, by instead just continuing to argue for something, that they must now concede is inherintly flawed.

What we now see is the coldness of them that refuse any correction to what and how they teach something, not even if it were to make their teaching more sound.

Here's the difficulty here R,,,
Those teaching faith alone do not see any flaws in what they believe/teach.

I THINK you're asking those that teach faith alone to discuss the flaws with that argument.
They don't believe they think there are any flaws....

 

[RBDERRICK]

"Faith vs work"is a FALSE DICHOTOMY, these two go hand in hand

True. I'm only replying against any one pitting their faith against all works, by seeking their justification only through faith alone, and never through any faith with works.

In that specific case, if they then teach adding any works to their faith alone, then they teach against their own justification, since their faith then becomes with works, and now no longer alone.

God's protection, blessing and rewards for you are all contingent upon obedience,see the long list of blessings and curses in Deut. 28.

True. But if anyone trusts only their faith alone to justify them with Christ, then any such works of obedience must be outward only, and not by faith. Else, the person adds works of obedience to their faith, and they cannot be justified only by their faith alone.

This would not count as another inherint contradiction, but as a necessary teaching of outward works only, without faith.

Thanks for the input. I had not yet seen this, until you brought in works of obedience in such a way, so as to avoid being justified by them.

Thus they are the works as by law alone, that are only for outward blessing rather than cursing. They are not works by any faith to please God, but only works of the law to get the Lawmaker's blessing, rather than cursing.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Now I can add yet another post to the doctrine of justification only by faith alone, and never by faith with works.

All works must be without faith, so that any obedience to God must only be as by law. They are only for outward blessing rather than cursing.

Works by faith to please and be justified by God, are forbidden, since no faith with works is justified by Christ.

Which is what being justified only by faith alone, is teaching against: Any faith with works, whether good or bad, is not justified by Christ.

Justification only by faith alone, is justification by faith, that must remain alone, and never be with any works at all, wether good or bad.

And since we all know the reason for such specialized jsutification, is to justify people still having sinful works, then we see how they must reconcile themselves to a teaching a faith, that must have no works at all...

And so far, they continue doing so, even in the face of such an inherint flaw.

Some just refuse to addess it at all, and others default to their standard justification for it, and one is apparantly clueless about it all (or at least acts like it.)

It's telling that the only other one who understand the inherint flaw, is someone that does not preach being only justified by faith alone. That person rightly concludes that if works are added to faith, then we must also now be justified by our faith with works.

Which of course is only the faith with good works, not bad.

 

[Free]

Now I can add yet another post to the doctrine of justification only by faith alone, and never by faith with works.

But, you shouldn't add another post. You have yet to define what is meant by "justification."

All works must be without faith, so that any obedience to God must only be as by law. They are only for outward blessing rather than cursing.

Works by faith to please and be justified by God, are forbidden, since no faith with works is justified by Christ.

Which is what being justified only by faith alone, is teaching against: Any faith with works, whether good or bad, is not justified by Christ.

This is a blatantly false misrepresentation and straw man.

Justification only by faith alone, is justification by faith, that must remain alone, and never be with any works at all, wether good or bad.

This is poor reasoning. Your conclusion doesn't follow.

And since we all know the reason for such specialized jsutification, is to justify people still having sinful works, then we see how they must reconcile themselves to a teaching a faith, that must have no works at all...

This is sinful judging of people's motives and still a blatantly false misrepresentation.

And so far, they continue doing so, even in the face of such an inherint flaw.

Some just refuse to addess it at all, and others default to their standard justification for it, and one is apparantly clueless about it all (or at least acts like it.)

It's telling that the only other one who understand the inherint flaw, is someone that does not preach being only justified by faith alone. That person rightly concludes that if works are added to faith, then we must also now be justified by our faith with works.

Which of course is only the faith with good works, not bad.

And, yet, you not only refuse to define justification and so prove that you even understand the things you rail against, you completely avoided the numerous verses I posted which unequivocally show that the only NT teaching on the matter is that works justify no one; they never have and never will.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. I'm a mathemitician at heart, and so is God. Sometimes His doctrine is written in what we call analytical geometry. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C.

In this case with Justification A and Faith Alone B: If A =B, then if B changes, then so must A, or A and B are no longer the same.

Bingo!
If A - (equals) B
and B - C
then A -C
OK

If B changes....then necessarily A will also change.
This is correct 100% and is exactly what the NT teaches.

Justification - Faith Alone
Faith alone - salvation
Justification - salvation

But if faith alone CHANGES
then salvation is in jeapordy.

I do believe I understand this because it's Catholic doctrine on justification.

I'll tell you why I dislike the way the CC teaches justification:
It teaches exactly what Protestants do......we are justified by only faith or yes faith alone as of right now this instant of justification.

The problem is that justification is an act of God, lasts a split second and then we're on our way to......

Ongoing justification.
Now it gets tricky because most denominations believe that salvation can be forfeited.
How?
By thinking that a person just continues to be justified without any WORKS.

So yes, if B changes and we do NOT add works to justification...IT ALSO will be lost --- necessarily so --- along with salvation.

I prefer how Protestants explain this:
Justification is an instant, an act of God, a person is declared saved....

Then we speak of Sanctification...
This is a life-long process which must also include WORKS...
If there's no outward sign of our repentance, no sign of a new man, how do we expect to be saved if our behavior is all Jesus spoke of?

Exactly.



True again.

Not necessarily. Faith alone is dead faith. There must be a difference between having faith alone, that James 2 condemns, and having faith without works, that Rom 4 preaches.

I'm going through Romans 4 right now.

Abraham was saved by faith when he left Ur....he became righteous.
Works do not save because God owes nothing to anyone...He does not PAY persons to be saved.
They are saved because of faith in God. Same as in the OT.

Verses 6, 7, 8 and 9 just states that our evil deeds have been forgiven, at that moment of justification.....
when a person decides for God and responds to His grace.
Abraham was not following the Law in order to be saved....he was uncircumcised, so that all could be justified without being circumcised.

We are not heirs though the Law....But through Faith.
Verse 14 states that if we can be saved by works,,,,then faith becomes useless.
Romans 4 was written for our sake too.

There would be much more to say, but I think that covers the justification part.

Romans 4 is just saying that we're saved BY OUR FAITH
and not BY OUR WORKS (The Law).

James is speaking regarding someone that is saved....
That is BEING SANCTIFIED, or according to the CC....is experiencing on-going justification.

That person's faith is useless unless it produces works.
And what did Jesus say about this?
John 15:6
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

IF we don't abide in Christ....live in Him....do as He taugth...we will be as useless as the branch that is thrown away.

That's the mystery of God's gospel of repentance unto salvation. Our faith must be without works to be imputed righteousness from God, but our faith must be with works to be justified by Christ.

Well, I guess you can say it like that. I've never heard it put that way, but it's not wrong IMO.
You're repeating what I've been saying:
We are saved by faith. No works necessary. No works could save us.
We are imputed God's righteousness (although this would have to be discussed too).

But THEN our faith must produce works....must produce fruit as Jesus states.

But then you say JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST...
Now sure what you mean by that.
Jesus is God, right?
So it's the same God doing the justifying and requiring the works.

The resolution is not by preaching one or the other, but both: Therefore, all Scripture is necessary, which is found in Heb 4:

Heb 4:10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

God ceased from His own good works, but we must cease from our own bad works. Which are all works done without Christ's Spirit, and so are all bad apart from God.

OK
I'd also add that even our GOOD WORKS are pretty useless.
They're very usefull to other humans and to society as a whole,
but they're useless for our salvation.
No faith
No salvation

Repentance from all our own works is therefore not working, but is only ceasing from works repented of. Therefore, repentance is through faith without works, to rest with God by Christ Jesus.

Right.
Repentance is through faith.
We come to believe God,
We repent.
We are immediately justified.
No works.

Correct, in the fact that repenting from our old works is not doing, but is only undoing.

Do you know what repent means?
Repenting IS DOING.

Darkness blinds. If darkness ceases by light, then darkness is no more doing work to blind. So with repentance from dead works of darkness.

And that light is the true light Jesus Christ, for whose sake we repent of all our own works in darkness without God.

OK. You use the word repent as most do, but the above is correct.

This is where perhaps I didn't make it clear enough about the teaching of justification by faith alone.

They teach that we are only justified by faith without works. That's when works of faith become anathema to being jsutified. Lest they no longer be justified only by faith alone, faith now having works, and not alone.

Works of faith are good works.
Where are they anathama?

If A (justification) is only equal to B (faith alone), then if B changes (faith with works), B is not longer equal to A at all.

He that is justified only by his faith alone, forsakes his own justification, if he ever adds works to his faith, so that his faith is no more alone, being now with works.

NO!
You're getting justification and sanctification mixed up.

Could you please explain the difference between justification and on-going justification/sanctification.

I.e. if anyone seeks to ever be justified only by their faith alone, theyare forever forbidden to have any faith with works.

The just by having faith alone, can never live by their faith.

Look R, some may agree with the above,,,
but it's not what the NT teaches and whoever teaches this is teaching something very dangerous to Christianity.
The only reason Jesus came was to show us how to live Christianly lives so we could be saved.
Doesn't that require doing good works??

I'm not so sure about this one. One question: Is justification, and therefore sanctification, complete from the beginning of repentance and faith toward God?

No.
Justification is 100% Complete.
Sanctification is a life-long process.
As long as you continue in that process your spiritual life is secure in Jesus.

John Wesley believed we could be sanctified in this life - that would be that we could actually stop sinning.
This is impossible and the Methodist and Nazarene churches that followed his teachings have stopped teaching this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now I can add yet another post to the doctrine of justification only by faith alone, and never by faith with works.

All works must be without faith, so that any obedience to God must only be as by law. They are only for outward blessing rather than cursing.

Works by faith to please and be justified by God, are forbidden, since no faith with works is justified by Christ.

Which is what being justified only by faith alone, is teaching against: Any faith with works, whether good or bad, is not justified by Christ.

Justification only by faith alone, is justification by faith, that must remain alone, and never be with any works at all, wether good or bad.

And since we all know the reason for such specialized jsutification, is to justify people still having sinful works, then we see how they must reconcile themselves to a teaching a faith, that must have no works at all...

And so far, they continue doing so, even in the face of such an inherint flaw.

Some just refuse to addess it at all, and others default to their standard justification for it, and one is apparantly clueless about it all (or at least acts like it.)

It's telling that the only other one who understand the inherint flaw, is someone that does not preach being only justified by faith alone. That person rightly concludes that if works are added to faith, then we must also now be justified by our faith with works.

Which of course is only the faith with good works, not bad.

I just sent you a long post....
The above makes me realize that you're learning things that are not mainline.
Don't know from where....but you make statements I've never heard before.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You keep saying "faith alone."

Only to keep rebuking being justified on by faith alone.

We are saved by faith alone in Christs' work.

If you do not mean being justified only by faith alone, then try using other words than 'alone', which is crused by Christ, as having anything to do with His faith.

Our faith is the result of what our Savior did.

Only believing with what Jesus did on earth, does not save nor justify anyone's faith.

Agreeing with what's right is certainly right, but it doesn't make anyone righteous for it. It may be better than not agreeing with the truth, but it doesn't do the truth.

What Jesus Christ did was obey the Father, and submit Himself meekly into the hands of unjust and wicked sinners.

What wicked sinners did, was unjustly accuse, condemn, and crucify Him.

By our sins and trespasses we separated ourselves from Christ. When He came to us in person, we then separated Him from us by crucifying Him with those same sins and trespsses.

Only by repenting for what we did to Him by our sins and trespasses, are our sins and trespasses freely forgiven and washed away by the blood of the resurrected Lord and God Jesus Christ.

the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. Jn.10:25

Those agreeing with the truth of His works for the Father, but repent not of their own sinful works, and not do His truth, are judged worse than them neither agreeing nor naming His name at all.

Jhn 19:11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

They new He was the Christ from God and confessed as much, but repented not and had Him crucified anyway.

Them that name His name and repent not, are likewise guilty of crucifying Him to themselves anyway.

 

[JLB]

Yes, so do I, but first about the argument I make. I certainly would like to see anyone show any flaw in my argument, that is against the inherint contradictions in teaching justification by faith alone.

No such thing as “faith alone” in the Bible.

Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience in order for faith to be complete and therefore activated to produce the intended divine result.

And then there is grace…

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

True. But if anyone trusts only their faith alone to justify them with Christ, then any such works of obedience must be outward only, and not by faith. Else, the person adds works of obedience to their faith, and they cannot be justified only by their faith alone.

This would not count as another inherint contradiction, but as a necessary teaching of outward works only, without faith.

Thanks for the input. I had not yet seen this, until you brought in works of obedience in such a way, so as to avoid being justified by them.

Thus they are the works as by law alone, that are only for outward blessing rather than cursing. They are not works by any faith to please God, but only works of the law to get the Lawmaker's blessing, rather than cursing.

Yes, works of the law is just outward behavior, Jesus elevated it to a higher level - both outward works AND inward obedience, nip any evil thoughts in the bud. Not only must you not murder or commit adultery, if you have any murderous or adulterous thoughts, you’re already guilty. These thoughts are from the devil, and must be taken into captivity.

 

[tdidymas]

My argument is not about having faith alone itself, but about how those teaching justification by their faith alone, has inherint flaws of contradiction, once anyway adds works to their faith.

And so, you show no fault in my reasoning, but rather argue with someone else, that may say there is no justification by faith alone at all.

I'm not making that argument.

If you want to show any fault in my reasoning, then you can argue against the problem with onbe being justified by faith alone, once anyone adds faith to their works, and now has faith with works, not faith alone.

Did my words go into one eye and out the other? I was showing you the fault in your reasoning. If your usage of "faith" is James' usage in 2:24, then I can see why you think as you do. But there James is trying to tell people that their faith is faulty and inadequate.

But the idea of "faith alone" is not James' usage, it's Paul's usage of faith in Rom. 3:28, 5:1, 10:11, and many others. But you also have to understand that the Reformation defined it as "justified by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone." So if someone you are conversing with is leaving out "not a faith that is alone" (meaning faith with works following), then I can see your objection. Do I read you correctly?