Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[RBDERRICK]

But if faith alone CHANGES
then salvation is in jeapordy.

Bingo dittoes.

If adding good works to our faith, puts our salvation in jeapordy, then salvation is against living our faith.

It teaches exactly what Protestants do......we are justified by only faith or yes faith alone as of right now this instant of justification.

I'm not justified by my own faith alone, nor is Jesus Christ a justifier of anyone by their faith alone.

I'm Bible justified by good works through the faith of Jesus.

Jesus' faith is never alone without works, because He is always doing those things pleasing to the Father.

The problem is that justification is an act of God, lasts a split second and then we're on our way to......

True. If we repent of our sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake. His faith and justification is in a split second, and lasts unto the end of the world. If we keep His righteous faith and pure religion sanctified and unspotted by the world unto the end.

Ongoing justification.

True, with ongoing righteousness and true holiness by grace through faith toward God.

Faith alone without works is dead, and faith alone with sins and trespasses is that of sinful man alone, not of Jesus Christ.

Now it gets tricky because most denominations believe that salvation can be forfeited.
How?
By thinking that a person just continues to be justified without any WORKS.

Did you mean can't be forfeited?

Then we speak of Sanctification...
This is a life-long process which must also include WORKS...

Jesus' Christ's instant salvation from sinning, with repentance from sinning, is His instant sanctification and circumcsion of the Spirit, that qucikly cuts of the foresking of lust and sin from the heart and life.

It begins the life-long process of obedience, through all trials tribulation, distress, and persecution.

Disobedience ends that growth in Christ and His sonship. But there is still the Advocate for the world, to repent to and be reconciled to God.

If there's no outward sign of our repentance, no sign of a new man, how do we expect to be saved if our behavior is all Jesus spoke of?

Actually very, very few preach true salvation by faith alone, without any works ever necessary to be justified with Christ. No repentace nor works ever have anything to do with their justification. They're Christianized new age divines.

The majority are lukewarm faith aloners, that reject their own faith alone justification, the moment they begin to preach any kind works to prove their faith is 'salvific'.

I'm going through Romans 4 right now.

Abraham was saved by faith when he left Ur....he became righteous.

Clarify when. He became justified when He offered up Isaac and was called the Friend of God. We know he became righteous, because God judged him to have kept all His commandments and statutes.

He was only imputed righteousness by believing God, without yet doing the work of laying with Sarah.

Romans 4 is imputed righteousness by faith without works performed, and James 2 is justification by works of faith performed.

Works do not save because God owes nothing to anyone...He does not PAY persons to be saved.

True. Whether doing good deeds with a corrupt heart, or cleaning up one's life at one's own leisure by gradual repentance, none of those works by man alone, can justify any man with the truly righteous Lord.

They are saved because of faith in God. Same as in the OT.

True. The faith toward God that saves the soul, is only with repentance from all sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake.

Heb 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Acts {3:19} Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Verses 6, 7, 8 and 9 just states that our evil deeds have been forgiven, at that moment of justification.....
when a person decides for God and responds to His grace.

Which the Bible calls repentance from dead works, which are any works of man with Christ.

Heb 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Imputed righteousness by repentance from our own works, is therefore without works, because repentance is not a work we do, but works we cease to do.

Mat 11:28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Imputed righteousness without works, is therefore not being righteous and justified by doing the new works of faith.

Romans 4 is just saying that we're saved BY OUR FAITH
and not BY OUR WORKS (The Law).

True. Neither by faith nor works alone, but only through faith with works of God, that are no more our own.

James is speaking regarding someone that is saved....
That is BEING SANCTIFIED, or according to the CC....is experiencing on-going justification.

That ceases when faith is made dead by doing evil, or not doing good. The evil is respect of persons, and no good is gracious words of love only.

1 John 3 confirms faith alone, apart from doing good, is love in word only, not in deed and truth.

IF we don't abide in Christ....live in Him....do as He taugth...we will be as useless as the branch that is thrown away.

True. Useless faith is dead to God, and not His Son's faith. Neither is useless love.

Tit 3:14And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Anyone not doing good, is not doing God's will, and anyone not loving our neighbor, is not loving God.

But then you say JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST...

Gal 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

I'd also add that even our GOOD WORKS are pretty useless.
They're very usefull to other humans and to society as a whole,
but they're useless for our salvation.

Tit 3:8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. {2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

They are profitable to men and are justified by Christ.

Do you know what repent means?
Repenting IS DOING.

Bible repenting is not doing.

Works of faith are good works.
Where are they anathama?

To people who seek to be justified only by their faith alone, apart from any works they do.

The thread is about the inherint failure of that search, because when any works are done by faith, they are no more jsutified by any faith alone, now having faith with works.

 

[RBDERRICK]

NO!
You're getting justification and sanctification mixed up.

Gradual sanctification with ongoing unrepented sins and trespasses, is man's own unclean santification by his own faith alone.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Could you please explain the difference between justification and on-going justification/sanctification.

It's the difference between whole-hearted repentance from all sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, and lukewarm repentance for a sinner's religion on earth, of the Christian sort.

The only reason Jesus came was to show us how to live Christianly lives so we could be saved.

We need to discipline our religious speak with Scripture always at the forefront:

Mar 2:17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus comes to call sinners to repentance. Then He remains to lead the newly righteous in always obeying God, as He does.

Doesn't that require doing good works??

Which requires repentance from bad works first.

No.
Justification is 100% Complete.
Sanctification is a life-long process.
As long as you continue in that process your spiritual life is secure in Jesus.

So, you do preach OSAS by faith alone, including during the sinful times of that process. That's where man own grace alone, 'bridges the gap'.

James 2 is about having faith while doing wrong, and it's dead to God. 1 John 3 is about being a child of the devil while doing wrong, not a born son of God.

The soul that is now sinning, is dead to God. There is no soul alive to God, that is now sinning, during their own gradual process of learning to sin less.

'Progressive' repentance and sanctification, is just modernish name for half-hearted repentance, instead of God's commanded whole-hearted repentance.

Whether social or religious progressivism, neither end evil-doing on earth, but just seek to make it less frequent.

John Wesley believed we could be sanctified in this life - that would be that we could actually stop sinning.

Which is actually doing as Jesus' commands His servants to do, and sin no more.

This is impossible

And so see how one's own faith alone is always the same with unrepented sinners.

Their own faith to continue sinning, is unbelief toward God and His Christ. Indeed their own faith alone must continue sinning, since it's not the faith of Jesus come by repentance from sinning.

The confession of faith that saves, is only from the repented and pure heart that does believe we can do God's will at all times, through Jesus Christ.

Phl 4:13I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is certainly not the faith that declares it is impossible not to sin against Christ.

No man by the faith of Jesus ever says, he shall surely sin again. Why? Because by his own faith alone, he cannot cease from sinning.

Why? Because he repents not from all his sinning for Jesus' sake.

The sinner's gospel of only believing unto salvation, with repentance following, is not the Bible gospel of repentance unto salvation.

Mar 2:17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Acts {3:19} Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

and the Methodist and Nazarene churches that followed his teachings have stopped teaching this.

Yes, it's called turning back to unrepented sinning.

Heb 10:38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Paul is saying that we must live by our faith, but if our faith takes us into more sinning, then that faith doesn't justify the soul. It's sinning man's own faith alone, not the righteous faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[journeyman]

Only to keep rebuking being justified on by faith alone.


If you do not mean being justified only by faith alone, then try using other words than 'alone', which is crused by Christ, as having anything to do with His faith.


Only believing with what Jesus did on earth, does not save nor justify anyone's faith.

Agreeing with what's right is certainly right, but it doesn't make anyone righteous for it. It may be better than not agreeing with the truth, but it doesn't do the truth.

What Jesus Christ did was obey the Father, and submit Himself meekly into the hands of unjust and wicked sinners.

What wicked sinners did, was unjustly accuse, condemn, and crucify Him.

By our sins and trespasses we separated ourselves from Christ. When He came to us in person, we then separated Him from us by crucifying Him with those same sins and trespsses.

Only by repenting for what we did to Him by our sins and trespasses, are our sins and trespasses freely forgiven and washed away by the blood of the resurrected Lord and God Jesus Christ.





Those agreeing with the truth of His works for the Father, but repent not of their own sinful works, and not do His truth, are judged worse than them neither agreeing nor naming His name at all.

Jhn 19:11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

They new He was the Christ from God and confessed as much, but repented not and had Him crucified anyway.

Them that name His name and repent not, are likewise guilty of crucifying Him to themselves anyway.

I get what you're saying, but a changed life is the result of faith. It's the cause. It's the reason for obedience

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Lk.6:46 KJV

 

[GodsGrace]

I get what you're saying, but a changed life is the result of faith. It's the cause. It's the reason for obedience

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Lk.6:46 KJV

I think you just posted against yourself.

 

[journeyman]

I think you just posted against yourself.

I'm posting to our Lords' work in me. If I believe. There is no, "I believe in the Messiah. I just don't do what He says."

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm posting to our Lords' work in me. If I believe. There is no, "I believe in the Messiah. I just don't do what He says."

Thanks for clarifying.
I agree.

 

[journeyman]

Thanks for clarifying.
I agree.

I'm very grateful we have a King who showed more mercy to His enemies than any other king ever born on earth.
I don't like people who spit on me. Our Savior loved them still!!! Wow

 

[tdidymas]

I get what you're saying, but a changed life is the result of faith. It's the cause. It's the reason for obedience

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Lk.6:46 KJV

I think you meant to say "it's not the cause."

 

[journeyman]

I think you meant to say "it's not the cause."

I'm saying OT prophecies about what the Messiah would do and then Jesus doing it is cause to believe in Him. I believe in Him because of it,

Search the scriptures...they are they which testify of me. Jn.5:39 KJV

 

[Hopeful 2]

I get what you're saying, but a changed life is the result of faith. It's the cause. It's the reason for obedience

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Lk.6:46 KJV

Isn't the unchanged life the result of faithlessness ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

I'm posting to our Lords' work in me. If I believe. There is no, "I believe in the Messiah. I just don't do what He says."

I believe that.
What do the unbelievers do ?
Disobey.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
I wrote this awhile back and thought it might add to the discussion. I was asked if I believe in "faith alone." Here is my response:

Hey All,
Nowhere in Scripture does it say, " faith alone." But the Bible does say "faith" alone. The only verse that comes close is James 2:24. We will touch on that verse later.

First, let's go to the most well-known verse in the Bible, John 3:16.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Belief in Jesus is the only requirement Jesus said was necessary for salvation. There is no argument that will win against this verse. The fact that Jesus said it should end this discussion. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That said, and pay attention here, this is the critically important caviat to the discussion: All, all other Scripture must agree with John 3:16. You have to have that mindset, or either Jesus, James, or Paul is lying. Yeah, that's how important this is.

Now let's look specifically at faith. The obvious place to look is Ephesians 2:8-10.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace is bestowed by God (we are made just), through faith (belief) that God provides (God's gift), in Jesus. This is not of works by man. We cannot brag that we did anything that warrants salvation. Believers are the product of God's work (not ours, God's work) We were Created in Christ unto (there's that future tense word again) good works. Works which God has previously (already) ordained (conferred by holy order) in which we are to walk (live our daily lives i.e. Keep walking everybody.).
Creation, in Christ, comes first. Then the work of salvation makes it possible to do good works. Nothing in this passage disagrees with John 3:16.

Now let's look at James.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Justified - to be declared or made righteous in the sight of God.

This verse makes it look like James is in direct conflict with what Jesus and Paul taught. But James is actually in agreement with Jesus and Paul. How can this be so?

Good works that will result in salvation was being taught by the Pharisees in Ephesus. Paul was responding to this teaching saying this is not so; that salvation is the work of God. James, however, is writing to coverted Jews. He is telling them genuine faith always produces good works. Salvation justifies us before God. Good works justify us before man. James has already shown in 1:18, no one can be saved by good works.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
BEGET', pret. begot, begat pp. begot, begotten - To procreate, as a father or sire to generate as, to beget a son

James says we are saved (born again ) by the will of God through the word of truth (Jesus). We are God's work; not our work, God's work. So James is not contradicting himself in 2:24. Because we are God's work. Our works are not necessary for salvation. But they are the sign of a living faith working within us. v17
In verse 22, he used the Greek word "eteleiōthē" (try saying that fast) to explain good works as the "completion," or the end result, of a living faith.

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
wrought - verb; archaic past and past participle of work.
adjective: wrought - (of metals) beaten out or shaped by hammering.

James is still writing about God's works here, "his work." "And by works" (The pronoun "his" has not changed. So James is still writing about God's works.) was faith made perfect. This has to be God's works. Because our works, without God's works, are as filthy rags (unworthy). Isa. 64:6 James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation.

Further, we are given the example of Abraham in verse 23.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
impute - past tense: imputed
represent (something, especially something undesirable) as being done, caused, or possessed by someone

Abraham was considrred righteous for believing God. James gives no other reason. Abraham exhibited his belief by being obedient to God. If you remember, as Abraham is taking Isaac to the place of sacrifice, Isaac asks Abraham where the sacrificial lamb was. Abraham responded:

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Obedience and trust are two of the works of salvation (faith) Abraham was exhibiting. He was living his faith. God had promised him earlier that He would make Abraham the father of many nations. Now God tells Abraham to sacrifice his only son. (Kinda hard to be the father of many nations without any offspring.) Only faith in God can produce this kind of trust and obedience. Abraham's faith was exhibited by his actions (works).

So in James 2:24, after using Abraham as the example, he tells us man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If you are a believer, you should not have to tell me that you are. I should be able to see God's works in you through how you live your life. There is no such thing as a genuine faith that is "works-less." James is not claiming works are required for salvation.

Think about the parable of the talents. Mat 25:14-30 The last servant buried his talent instead of using it to earn more for his master. If the talent represents faith, then the burying of it is the equivalent of faith not being used. The other two servants used their master's talents and produced increased value. To the servant who did not use (do the works of faith) his talent; he was thrown into outer darkness.
Why?
He was not acting as a servant. The talent given (faith) was buried (hidden), and not being used (good works) to benefit the master. Therefore he was not a servant.

James did not proclaim that works are required for salvation. James is writing that a "faith" that has no works associated with it is not a real faith. If there is no trust, no obedience, no repentance, no evidence of a changed life, there is also no faith. Because true faith is life-changing.

So James is not in disagreement with Jesus or Paul. Neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor James lied.
John 3:16 - belief in Jesus is all that is necessary for salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - we are saved by grace through faith from God unto good works.
James 2:24 - works justify our faith as being genuine.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

P.S. Even the faith we have is not our own.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Faith is God given.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Works are the natural by-product of faith.
Equating faith & works as well placing them in the wrong chronological order is where people veer into the ditch on the subject.
Jesus's emphasis was always on faith first , the implication being that faith will take care of the works .
Jesus ascribes salvation to the centurion , yet there is no mention from Jesus of the Centurion's works .
Jesus having full knowledge & confidence that the Centurion's many works lie in the days ahead of him , while at the same time leaving no doubt that this man was saved at that moment .


Mat 8:10-13
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel....
And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

 

[journeyman]

Isn't the unchanged life the result of faithlessness ?

Yes.

many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”.....some of you who do not believe....From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Jn.6:60,64,66

 

[journeyman]

I believe that.
What do the unbelievers do ?
Disobey.

Yes but believing in Him first is the key to really understanding His way. Look at how the NT writers regarded themselves and others of faith as holy conquering warriors.
They were slaughtered, as the OT Prophets were. As the One sitting on the Throne in Heaven was!!!
It made me wonder about all the thousands of commentaries which teach how the Messiah is returning with all the saints to battle "the beast and false prophet." But that's what Gods' faithful have always done by proclaiming His word.
Beast = government denying God. False prophet = religious heresy.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Works are the natural by-product of faith.
Equating faith & works as well placing them in the wrong chronological order is where people veer into the ditch on the subject.
Jesus's emphasis was always on faith first , the implication being that faith will take care of the works .
Jesus ascribes salvation to the centurion , yet there is no mention from Jesus of the Centurion's works .
Jesus having full knowledge & confidence that the Centurion's many works lie in the days ahead of him , while at the same time leaving no doubt that this man was saved at that moment .


Mat 8:10-13
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel....
And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Which works are you talking about ?
The works of the Law, that Paul wrote against, or deeds like repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, or enduring faithfully until the end ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes but believing in Him first is the key to really understanding His way. Look at how the NT writers regarded themselves and others of faith as holy conquering warriors.
They were slaughtered, as the OT Prophets were. As the One sitting on the Throne in Heaven was!!!
It made me wonder about all the thousands of commentaries which teach how the Messiah is returning with all the saints to battle "the beast and false prophet." But that's what Gods' faithful have always done by proclaiming His word.
Beast = government denying God. False prophet = religious heresy.

Isn't disobedience the sign of unbelief ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Which works are you talking about ?
The works of the Law, that Paul wrote against, or deeds like repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, or enduring faithfully until the end ?

The same works that Jesus never bothered to mention as He was busy marveling the great faith of the centurion .

Mat 8:10-13
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel....

 

[Hopeful 2]

The same works that Jesus never bothered to mention as He was busy marveling the great faith of the centurion .

Mat 8:10-13
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel....

Faith without works is dead.
If that centurion went and kept killing folks in war campaigns, or stealing from those he ruled over, his faith will have become faithlessness.
If, on the other hand, he put down his sword and armor and volunteered at a food bank, and was honestly trying to portray both the life and death of Jesus with his life...he may find his name in the book of life on the last day.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Faith without works is dead.

Plenty of people perform works who have no faith at all
It is impossible to have faith and perform no works