Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[GodsGrace]

mailmandan

What are you so shocked about? (post 439)
I provided scripture.
Do you also deny scripture now?
Lunchtime here....I have your 3 posts to me.
Later.

 

[mailmandan]

mailmandan

What are you so shocked about? (post 439)
I provided scripture.
Do you also deny scripture now?
Lunchtime here....I have your 3 posts to me.
Later.

You provided scripture accompanied by your eisegesis. You clearly teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.

 

[JLB]

You keep leaving out sanctified by faith in Me which is the cause of us turning from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God. Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Confessing is a confirmation of faith and being translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God.

I haven’t left anything out.

I was the one who quoted the passage in Acts 26.

The cause of us turning to God is grace.

When we, by the Spirit, choose to repent, and confess Jesus as Lord, we are saved and sanctified, by faith.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit… 1 Peter 1:22


It’s always us by the Spirit.

That’s what grace is, the Holy Sprit; the Spirit of grace.

Grace is the God given ability to do what we can not do on our own.

Grace is something, as well as Someone.

Just like truth is something as well as Someone.

 

[onlysaved]

mailmandan

page 2 of 4


Jesus also said we are to be baptized.
Matthew 28:19

Jesus said to be obedient.
John 14:15

Jesus said to be fruitful.
John 15:2 EVERY BRANCH IN JESUS THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT WILL BE CUT AWAY.

Jesus NEVER said to just believe in Him and we would be saved.

Ditto for Paul and all the writers.
Faith Alone is a dead faith.

I have no fear.
I have no insecurity.
I also don't have a guilty conscience for some that might be reading along and heed YOUR belief system and DISOBEY JESUS....

We do good works because we desire to do good works.
This is very nice.

But the NT teaches that WE MUST do good works....
sometimes we may not even want to.

So then you agree that we must obey Jesus and the others?
So why is it so difficult to just say that, yes, we are to obey.
If we obey,,,we will do what Jesus commanded.

What He commanded is good works.
So good works should not have a negative connotation.

Stating that you are encouraging disobedience is a strawman argument?

Go check out post no. 394 written by onlysaved .
He states that our good works are filthy rags.

Yes, THIS is the outcome of YOUR theology.

Encouragement?
On good works?
Ephesians states that we WERE CREATED for good works.

It's not an ENCOURAGMENT....it's an order.
Jesus and Paul and the others are not making SUGGESTIONS...

They're teaching us what we need to do to get to heaven.
One of those teachings is on good works.

Yes. I'm trusting what the NT teaches,,,
not what those that deny we are required to do good works teach.

There is only one NT, and it teaches good works.

Already replied to twice.

And let's not forget
Philippians 2:12 WE ARE TO WORK OUT OUR SALVATION.

Does that sound like Paul is saying that all is finsihed and we're to do NOTHING?


This is what I stated:
When God tells us to do something...
IT'S A COMMAND.
God does not suggest...
He commands.

THIS DOES NOT make God out to be a tyrant.
Those are YOUR words...not mine.

Dan...your childhood has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.
I'm not Catholic and have problems with some doctrine of theirs.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
He was scary to you because you were NOT BORN AGAIN yet.
Now you know God wishes the best for you....
You cannot live the Christian life on your own but only with the help of the Holy Spirit.

This does not mean that we are to deny that Jesus left us with things to do.
How does the Kingdom of God here on earth get better if we're not willing to pull our weight?

OK.
Great.
So when you gonna answer my simple question?

ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER BEING BORN AGAIN?

Simple answer:
YES

If the answer is
NO
Then you are disobeying Jesus and the entire teaching of the NT.



John 3:36 Apparently you don't care to know that BELIEVE means TO OBEY. To DISBELIEVE means to DISOBEY.
I'm not giving out Greek lessons.....you could check this out for yourself since my explanation is apparently useless to you-and as it should be. But it is correct...learn it on your own so you could stop debating John 3:36 and what it means.

How do you know if you've done enough good works to be saved?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we HAVE TO obey, then you've said enough.

The reason you have to obey and the reason we have to obey are two different reasons.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Agreed.
Are there, however, any "consequences" to becoming justified?
Jesus said to count the cost.
Luke 14:27-29
27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot * be My disciple.
28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29 "Otherwise *, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,

The above comes AFTER justification.
Jesus said:
We must consider what it means to follow Jesus.
We must finish building on the foundation.

The works you see as necessary to being made righteous are the works we see necessary as the proof that we have faith and are saved and are continuing in that faith.

11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end (love for the saints-vs.10), in order to make your hope sure. 12Then you will not be sluggish, but will imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. Hebrews 6:11-12

 

[GodsGrace]

You provided scripture accompanied by your eisegesis. You clearly teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.

If that's what you want to understand....OK.
Apparently you don't want to understand.

 

[mailmandan]

If that's what you want to understand....OK.
Apparently you don't want to understand.

I understand more than you think. Been there, done that. Don't forget. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and they wrote the book on salvation by faith AND WORKS and your arguments are very similar. Apparently you just can't see that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good grief are you writing a book?

My thought exactly.

Unto salvation or after salvation? Not all acts of obedience are unto salvation. Many are after salvation.

After.

That sounds like the Roman Catholic definition of believe. They "infuse" obedience/ works into believe/faith and call that believe.

Strong's #4100

pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in

Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

Obedience which follows is works.

Did you just state that obedience is works?
'nuff said.

And, BEIEVE means something specific in Greek.
Catholicism has nothing to do with Greek.

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   
   
   1. of the thing believed
      
      
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      
      
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
      3. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   
   
   1. to be entrusted with a thing

So we place our trust in Jesus.
We BELEIVE what Jesus taught...not just in Him in an intellectual way.
So Jesus said:
Matthew 7:21 NASB
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Luke 3:9
9 "Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Luke 6:35-36
35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
36 "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Doing the will of the Father means DOING something.
This is a good work.
Loving our enemies is a good work.
Being merciful is a good work.
Jesus said to DO these things.
They are works.
Jesus said we are to be born again, John 3:5,
AND to do good works.

A Roman Catholic once made this statement to me below:

"We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc.."

I think it's more a definition of the relationship between faith and works.
Actually, as I think of it...your friend might be right.
Having faith in Jesus means that we trust Him enough to do as He commands.
I think I explained this above.

Faith is not simply believing.
It's an action.
If we have FAITH in the escalator....
we will GET ON IT in order to reach the next floor.

So, you believe we are saved by faith plus imperfect, obedience?

We are saved by faith.
But faith INCLUDES good works, after initial salvation.
Do YOU know anyone that perfectly obeys God?
I don't think so.

Your misinterpretation of John 3:36 culminates in salvation by works. Fear and bondage, to fear and bondage to insecurity is no way to live the Christian life.

For genuine believers, Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior.

I'm not addressing fear anymore.
It's a strawman invented by you and has no place in this conversation.
IF Jesus is your LORD and SAVIOR...
then you must obey what Jesus taught.
He taught good works.

(Luke 8:12; John 1:12; John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13) etc..

I'll take the first 3:
Luke 8:12
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
I won't even get into context. Jesus plainly states that we must believe to be saved.
Believe what? Verse 11 says THE WORD OF GOD.
The word of God is the entire NT.

John 1:12
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
To receive Jesus is to accept Him as Lord and Savior.
To trust Him.
IF we trust Him we will DO what He taught.

John 3:15
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

Same idea.
See verse 21:
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Read those verses in context.

For God and men to see. These works are a testimony.

We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) Do you disagree?

I agree.
So what about that member that stated that our works are filthy rags to God?
That idea comes from believing in faith alone AFTER salvation.
They think Jesus has done it all and we are to do nothing...
that nothing is required....
and this is not what Jesus taught.

I never said we work for men.

Many explain James 2:24 in this way.
Sorry if I misquoted you.

Work for God, good testimony for men.

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand more than you think. Been there, done that. Don't forget. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and they wrote the book on salvation by faith AND WORKS and your arguments are very similar. Apparently you just can't see that.

I'm just posting scripture Dan.

I'll say that the CC believes that we are saved by faith just as Protestantism believes.
The Council of Trent stated as much, as does the CCC.

From the Council of Trent:

CHAPTER VIII:
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD​

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.
source: https://www.k-state.edu/english/baker/english233/Council_of_Trent6.htm

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (faith plus what? faith plus nothing, hence, faith alone) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Plus nothing.
We are saved by faith....
but THEN,
NOT by faith alone.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (faith plus what? faith plus nothing, hence faith alone) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9. not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Not faith and works, but faith alone). Faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

What happened to verse 10?
We are CREATED FOR GOOD WORKS.

Jesus taught that we are to do good works.
Good works are necessary AFTER salvation.

1. Not teaching good works AFTER salvation is to undermine the values of Christianity.

2. BELIEF only and NOT BEHAVIOR becomes the ruling factor.
Belief without works is dead.

3. Belief ONLY does not acknowledge the authority of God.

4. This leads to some believing they don't even need to ask forgiveness for their sins because "Jesus did it all".

You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works."

Context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

No Dan.
In James 2:24 we see a person who had faith and now has a dead faith.
James 2:21-26
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
ABRAHAM ALREADY HAD FAITH.
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
FAITH AND WORKS ARE TIED TOGETHER.
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
THE SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED....
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
NOT BY FAITH ALONE. THIS IS ALL I'M SAYING.
25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
SELF-EXPLANATORY.
(WHAT IF SHE HAD NOT HID THE MESSENGERS?)
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
FAITH.....SO FAITH IS ALREADY EXISTING.
WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
AN EXISTING FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.
MAKES NO SENSE UNLESS FAITH IS ALREADY EXISTING.
WHAT WOULD BE DEAD? IT'S THE EXISTING FAITH.

False. James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Right. James is NOT speaking about the initial act of salvation.
And what's the difference between being accounted as righteous and shown as righteous?
Right here you are claiming that James means that the works are FOR MEN....something you denied in another post right now.

WHO are we SHOWN TO BE RIGHTEOUS TO??
Can't be God Dan. It would not make any sense.
So it must be man.

NOWHERE do the NT writers say we are saved by works. That is your eisegesis. Good works follow salvation.

Maybe I'm not understanding the following verses that seem VERY CLEAR
and require NO EXEGESIS let alone eisegesis.

John 14:15 IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

Paul
Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
I believe the above is speaking about good works.


Jesus
Matthew 19:16-17
16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

What commandments?

You say must or else do good works/saved by good works which is not what Paul said. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Yes, we should walk in them. Nothing there about saved by works in (Ephesians 2:8-10)

What if you DO NOT walk in them?

Why do you think Paul and Jesus are SUGGESTING instead of COMMANDING?

It's not about must for me but will. Good works are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. We are created in Christ, Jesus unto/for good works that we should walk in them. Still nothing there about salvation by works.

Works will not create imputed righteousness, but faith in Jesus Christ alone will. (Romans 4:5-6) Jesus Christ is the creator of His Kingdom.

Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. He gets the MERIT. It would take justification by law (perfect obedience) or us to MERIT our salvation. Good luck with that!

There is no merit in salvation through faith. We are simply recieving a free gift. Christ gets all the merit.

I know more than you think and when it comes to the moral aspect of the law of Moses, you cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a good work yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

Roman Catholics also teach that we are saved by “these” works (good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law) which is a bogus argument. Paul makes it clear that we are not merely saved by specific works of the law but also works in general. (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Works of the law covers it all including the moral aspect of the law, as I already explained.

John 3:15,16,18. That's 3. Need more?

In order to obtain salvation He did. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:25; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

After salvation.

(Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Yes. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:25; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

Must leave.
Later.

 

[GodsGrace]

How do you know if you've done enough good works to be saved?

How do you know you're saved WITHOUT doing good works?
This is all Jesus spoke about for over 3 years.

 

[GodsGrace]

Context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

False. James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

So if we HAVE NO WORKS we are not really Christian and are not saved.
Good.

So if we HAVE WORKS it means we are saved.
SO IF WE HAVE NO WORKS we are not saved.

Which means: WORKS SAVE US, since no works means we are NOT saved.

Kind of jumbled...but it's what YOU just said.

NOWHERE do the NT writers say we are saved by works. That is your eisegesis. Good works follow salvation.

You say must or else do good works/saved by good works which is not what Paul said. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Yes. We MUST do good works.
What is difficult to understand?
GOD does NOT SUGGEST what we should do.
He COMMANDS it.
So we MUST do what God commands.

This is what's known as OBEDIENCE...
and obedience to GOD.

Those that are not saved do not need to obey God.
Those that are saved need to obey God.

Yes, we should walk in them. Nothing there about saved by works in (Ephesians 2:8-10)

What if you don't walk in them?
Someone on this thread just asked me how many good works I must do to be saved, or something similar.
This is the kind of nonsense the theology you're espousing brings up.

It's not about must for me but will. Good works are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. We are created in Christ, Jesus unto/for good works that we should walk in them. Still nothing there about salvation by works.

Answered to.
GOD COMMANDS....He doesn't suggest.

Works will not create imputed righteousness, but faith in Jesus Christ alone will. (Romans 4:5-6) Jesus Christ is the creator of His Kingdom.

Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. He gets the MERIT. It would take justification by law (perfect obedience) or us to MERIT our salvation. Good luck with that!

There is no merit in salvation through faith. We are simply recieving a free gift. Christ gets all the merit.

So you're teaching dung covered over in white snow.
How about teaching that when we become born again God requires that
we REPENT...CHANGE...BEHAVE in a different manner.

Do we cover up our dung or do we get rid of it?

I went to a Nazarene church for 10 years Dan.
Covering up the dung means the dung is still there.

I know more than you think and when it comes to the moral aspect of the law of Moses, you cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a good work yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

Roman Catholics also teach that we are saved by “these” works (good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law) which is a bogus argument. Paul makes it clear that we are not merely saved by specific works of the law but also works in general. (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Works of the law covers it all including the moral aspect of the law, as I already explained.

John 3:15,16,18. That's 3. Need more?

In order to obtain salvation He did. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:25; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

After salvation.

(Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Yes. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:25; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

You keep repeating the same misunderstanding of scripture over and over with never
anything new to add.

How about this:
already mentioned BTW,,,
Jesus to the Jews:
Matthew 23:3
3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

Jesus did not like hyocrisy.
It's rather hypocritical to say one is Christian and not DO what Jesus commanded.
Or to teach same.

 

[GodsGrace]

The reason you have to obey and the reason we have to obey are two different reasons.

What's YOUR reason JB?
MY reason is that Jesus commanded that we do good works.

Do you REALLY need scripture.
Will be supplied upon request.

 

[GodsGrace]

The works you see as necessary to being made righteous are the works we see necessary as the proof that we have faith and are saved and are continuing in that faith.

11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end (love for the saints-vs.10), in order to make your hope sure. 12Then you will not be sluggish, but will imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. Hebrews 6:11-12

Good.
And HOW do we inherit what was promised?
We are to show the diligence till the end.

This is also for mailmandan

I do believe that the problem here might be the term
FAITH ALONE
What do you think faith alone means?

What does it mean that we are saved by FAITH ALONE?

 

[onlysaved]

How do you know you're saved WITHOUT doing good works?
This is all Jesus spoke about for over 3 years.

By acknowledging that all my works mean absolutely nothing. That i am so far beyond redemption that nothing i can do pleases God. That i am utterly rejected by God on account of what I have done. And in acknowledging His supremacy over all things I throw myself at His mercy based on His invitation to do so. Choosing to believe that He sent His Son Jesus to pay the penalty for all of my sins.

Believing that works have anything to do with salvation is based on pride in those works which totally negates any understanding of how depraved we are
Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. THEN. After salvation we can do good works because it's God doing them through us.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand more than you think. Been there, done that. Don't forget. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and they wrote the book on salvation by faith AND WORKS and your arguments are very similar. Apparently you just can't see that.

Interesting about the CC.
This is for Free too since he also brought this up.

I went to 2 different Protestant denominational churches...one for 10 years.
They both believed in good works.

Did some checking just now.
Seems most Protestant denominations believe in good works.

Half of Protestants Agree With Catholics That Good Deeds and Faith Are Needed for Salvation: Pew

About half of Protestants in the U S now agree with the historically Catholic belief that both faith and good deeds are needed for salvation, rather than faith alone, a Pew Research Center survey

www.christianpost.com

U.S. Protestants Are Not Defined by Reformation-Era Controversies 500 Years Later

Five hundred years after the start of the Protestant Reformation, a new Pew Research Center survey finds that U.S. Protestants are not united about – and in some cases, are not even aware of – some of the controversies that were central to the historical schism between Protestantism and Catholicism.

www.pewresearch.org

I also found this interesting:

Key Differences Among the 7 Main Christian Denominations

What are the similarities and differences among the main Christian denominations? Learn more about the core beliefs of seven types of Christianity.

www.learnreligions.com

 

[GodsGrace]

By acknowledging that all my works mean absolutely nothing. That i am so far beyond redemption that nothing i can do pleases God. That i am utterly rejected by God on account of what I have done. And in acknowledging His supremacy over all things I throw myself at His mercy based on His invitation to do so. Choosing to believe that He sent His Son Jesus to pay the penalty for all of my sins.

Good for you onlysaved.
Sounds like a true child of God.

Believing that works have anything to do with salvation is based on pride in those works which totally negates any understanding of how depraved we are
Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. THEN. After salvation we can do good works because it's God doing them through us.

You sound a bit calvinist to me.
Different topic altogether.

Just quick:
We may be depraved...
but we can still seek God.

And this is all I'll say on this thread.

 

[onlysaved]

Good for you onlysaved.
Sounds like a true child of God.


You sound a bit calvinist to me.
Different topic altogether.

Just quick:
We may be depraved...
but we can still seek God.

And this is all I'll say on this thread.

God seeks us. We don't seek Him.

 

[mailmandan]

Interesting about the CC.
This is for Free too since he also brought this up.

I went to 2 different Protestant denominational churches...one for 10 years.
They both believed in good works.

Did some checking just now.
Seems most Protestant denominations believe in good works.

Half of Protestants Agree With Catholics That Good Deeds and Faith Are Needed for Salvation: Pew

About half of Protestants in the U S now agree with the historically Catholic belief that both faith and good deeds are needed for salvation, rather than faith alone, a Pew Research Center survey

www.christianpost.com

U.S. Protestants Are Not Defined by Reformation-Era Controversies 500 Years Later

Five hundred years after the start of the Protestant Reformation, a new Pew Research Center survey finds that U.S. Protestants are not united about – and in some cases, are not even aware of – some of the controversies that were central to the historical schism between Protestantism and Catholicism.

www.pewresearch.org

I also found this interesting:

Key Differences Among the 7 Main Christian Denominations

What are the similarities and differences among the main Christian denominations? Learn more about the core beliefs of seven types of Christianity.

www.learnreligions.com

Now, you know why it's so many and so few. (Matthew 7:13-14) It's few who place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (John 3:18; Acts 16:31; Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Most trust in works for salvation (at least in part). Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, or else, we are 100% lost. It does not get any more narrow than that. (John 10:9; 14:6)