Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[JLB]

Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind.

In the context of salvation, repent means to turn to one Lord, by turning away from the Lord you once served.

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:18

By repenting (confessing Jesus as Lord) we are translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God.

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:13-14

 

[JLB]

It's not about simply reciting the words, "Jesus is Lord" as a work for salvation but acknowledging and professing allegiance to Christ.

Again, it’s not about a work for salvation, it’s the obedience of faith.

 

[mailmandan]

Repent means turn to God in submission to Him as Lord, which plainly means turning away from Satan as our Lord.

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:19-20

We must not confuse the fruit of repentance (bear fruits worthy of repentance/do works befitting repentance) with the essence of repentance. (change of mind) The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind.

3341. metanoia ► Strong's Concordance metanoia: change of mind, repentance

Original Word: μετάνοια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metanoia
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an'-oy-ah)
Short Definition: repentance, a change of mind
Definition: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 3341 metánoia – literally, "a change of mind" ("after-thought"); repentance. See 3340 /metanoeō ("repent").

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - "Repent and believe the gospel."

Acts 20:21 - .."repentance toward God, and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ."

A person cannot believe (trust) in Jesus Christ for salvation without repenting (changing their mind) in the process. In the context of Luke 13:3, Jesus challenged the people's notion that they were morally superior to those who suffered in such catastrophes. He called all to repent or perish. For some people though, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (saving faith in Christ), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (see 1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, belief in Christ, as an expression of this change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change about God must ultimately take, namely, trusting God's Son, Jesus Christ, alone for salvation.

In doing so we are turning away from Satan to God. (Acts 26:18)

 

[mailmandan]

In the context of salvation, repent means to turn to one Lord, by turning away from the Lord you once served.

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:18

By repenting (confessing Jesus as Lord) we are translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God.

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:13-14

You keep leaving out sanctified by faith in Me which is the cause of us turning from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God. Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Confessing is a confirmation of faith and being translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

YES!

But not for the purpose of the imputation of righteousness.

Jethro....
We're discussing what comes AFTER initial justification.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. But not for the purpose of being imputed the righteousness of God.

If we HAVE TO obey, then you've said enough.
Another poster here will not admit that we MUST obey God's commandments - the ones Jesus left us with which would be the moral commandments.

 

[GodsGrace]

You keep leaving out sanctified by faith in Me which is the cause of us turning from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God. Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Confessing is a confirmation of faith and being translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God.

The above is not for me but came up when I posted a reply.

If you want to be sanctified....you MUST obey Jesus and do good works.

So, in the end, ONLY FAITH is not enough....
a saved person is required to do good works.

Jesus said:
Luke 14:27-28 NASB
27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot * be My disciple.
28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?

There is a cost to following Jesus.
We must submit ourselves to HIM.
Romand 6:16 WE ARE SLAVES TO THE ONE TO WHOM WE PRESENT OURSELVES.

This means we must follow His commandments...
there is no choice.

 

[GodsGrace]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

NO.
YOU believe in faith alone for your salvation.
Nowhere is faith alone mentioned in the NT.
And when it is,,,,it's mentioned in a negative sense.
James 2:24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James is saying that we are not saved by faith alone.
But also by our works.
Why?
Because Jesus and every writer of the NT commanded us to do good works.
YOU say because of our salvation we will do good works.
This does not sound like what Paul said.
Paul said:
Ephesians 2:10 NASB
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
We were CREATED for good works.
WE are the hands and feet of God.
We MUST do good works.

Jesus wanted HIS Kingdom on earth.
Faith alone will not create that Kingdom
but only our good works.

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

Romans 3:24-28 your verses NASB
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.


1. Please show me where the above states that we are saved through the MERITS of Jesus' death.
I believe it states that we are made righteous through our faith in Jesus. (I might have missed it).

2. The above verses are speaking about THE LAW OF MOSES,,,,NOT good works.
Maybe the problem is that you don't know the difference??

And I think you know the difference Dan.

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

Could you please post some scripture, maybe 2 or 3 verses that state that we are saved ONLY by believing in Jesus?

Jesus Himself NEVER stated to just believe in Him.
Throughout His teaching He taught good works...
He taught that we are to produce good fruit.

Where in the NT does it say to ONLY believe in Jesus and we will be saved.
Does JESUS ever say this?

 

[GodsGrace]

There it is! Salvation by faith AND GOOD WORKS. BTW when it comes to the moral aspect of the law you cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

What do you mean by "There it is!"
I've been stating that we ARE REQUIRED to do good works for years now.
So why the surprise?

We need FAITH and GOOD WORKS to be saved.
You seem to get initial salvation mixed up with ongoing justification or sanctification.

And WHY can't I separate the moral law from the civil or ceremonial law?
Do you think a person could keep the civil law today?
Do you think a person could keep the ceremonial law today?

The civil and ceremonial law have been abolished.
The MORAL LAW will NEVER be abolished.
You're talking about the 10 commandments...have they been abolished?
If you believe they have, it explains your belief system.

You just demonstrated the core of the misunderstanding above.

A "nominal" Christian is someone who is a Christian "in name only." A pseudo-Christian.

Again?
Not replying to this nonsense Dan-
A person is either a Christian or they're not.

True but "nominal" Christians outnumber genuine Christians worldwide by far.

Not interested.

Really. All genuine Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23; 7:17) Are you suggesting there are genuine Christians who produce no good works at all?

Sure.
The lazy ones that think all they need is faith and they're good to go.
THIS is NOT what the NT teaches.

It is a dangerous teaching.
It tends to cause some to continue in their life as before and we see NO TRANSFORMATION.
Romans 12:1-8 NASB
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,

5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually * members one of another.

6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;

7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;

8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

What the above states:

1. We are to be a living sacrifice.
2. We are to be transformed.
3. We have been given a measure of faith....grace to put our gifts into action.
4. We are to EXERCISE THEM accordingly.
5. We are to do this with cheerfulness.

It DOES NOT state that we will automatically do these things when we are born again....
Paul is exhorting us TO DO.
Always with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course.

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[GodsGrace]

mailmandan

page 2 of 4

There is nothing that man could do to add to what Christ has already done. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed. This does not mean there is nothing we can do in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. We must receive it through faith. You seem determined to do something in order to help Christ save you and take credit (at least in part).

Jesus also said we are to be baptized.
Matthew 28:19

Jesus said to be obedient.
John 14:15

Jesus said to be fruitful.
John 15:2 EVERY BRANCH IN JESUS THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT WILL BE CUT AWAY.

Jesus NEVER said to just believe in Him and we would be saved.

Ditto for Paul and all the writers.
Faith Alone is a dead faith.

Everything with you is must or else. What happened to doing good works out of love and gratitude for the Lord? That is what motivates me to do good works and not fear and bondage to insecurity.

I have no fear.
I have no insecurity.
I also don't have a guilty conscience for some that might be reading along and heed YOUR belief system and DISOBEY JESUS....

We do good works because we desire to do good works.
This is very nice.

But the NT teaches that WE MUST do good works....
sometimes we may not even want to.

No. A life characterized by disobedience demonstrates unbelief. This does not mean that a genuine believer can never disobey God at all. We are not sinless and perfect 100% of the time but the life of a genuine believer is characterized by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10)

So then you agree that we must obey Jesus and the others?
So why is it so difficult to just say that, yes, we are to obey.
If we obey,,,we will do what Jesus commanded.

What He commanded is good works.
So good works should not have a negative connotation.

Straw man argument.

Stating that you are encouraging disobedience is a strawman argument?

Go check out post no. 394 written by onlysaved .
He states that our good works are filthy rags.

Yes, THIS is the outcome of YOUR theology.

Should is not must or else! Ephesians 2:10 also says we should walk in good works. That sounds more like encouragement to me.

Encouragement?
On good works?
Ephesians states that we WERE CREATED for good works.

It's not an ENCOURAGMENT....it's an order.
Jesus and Paul and the others are not making SUGGESTIONS...

They're teaching us what we need to do to get to heaven.
One of those teachings is on good works.

This demonstrates what you are really trusting in for salvation.

Yes. I'm trusting what the NT teaches,,,
not what those that deny we are required to do good works teach.

There is only one NT, and it teaches good works.

There it is! Type 2 works salvation or salvation by works at the back door. Apparently, you don't fully trust in Christ to save you, but you also trust in works to help Christ keep you saved. From beginning (Ephesians 2:8) to end (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

Already replied to twice.

And let's not forget
Philippians 2:12 WE ARE TO WORK OUT OUR SALVATION.

Does that sound like Paul is saying that all is finsihed and we're to do NOTHING?

Forced? You make God out to sound like a tyrant.

This is what I stated:
When God tells us to do something...
IT'S A COMMAND.
God does not suggest...
He commands.

THIS DOES NOT make God out to be a tyrant.
Those are YOUR words...not mine.

What happened to love? Faith works/expresses itself through love (Galatians 5:6) and not fear and bondage. You are bringing up painful memories for me from my childhood when I was still attending the Roman Catholic church. Back then, prior to my conversion, I saw God as a tyrant who could not wait to punish me every time I messed up. That is a miserable way to try and live the Christian life!

Dan...your childhood has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.
I'm not Catholic and have problems with some doctrine of theirs.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
He was scary to you because you were NOT BORN AGAIN yet.
Now you know God wishes the best for you....
You cannot live the Christian life on your own but only with the help of the Holy Spirit.

This does not mean that we are to deny that Jesus left us with things to do.
How does the Kingdom of God here on earth get better if we're not willing to pull our weight?

Yes, sign of salvation. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith.

OK.
Great.
So when you gonna answer my simple question?

ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER BEING BORN AGAIN?

Simple answer:
YES

If the answer is
NO
Then you are disobeying Jesus and the entire teaching of the NT.

Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No good works at all would demonstrate there is no root.

In this case to obey means to choose to believe in the Son. Believe is not defined as obedience in general though. That is where you cross the line into salvation by works.

John 3:36 Apparently you don't care to know that BELIEVE means TO OBEY. To DISBELIEVE means to DISOBEY.
I'm not giving out Greek lessons.....you could check this out for yourself since my explanation is apparently useless to you-and as it should be. But it is correct...learn it on your own so you could stop debating John 3:36 and what it means.

 

[GodsGrace]

mailmandan

page 3 of 4

We obey Him by choosing to believe in Him here. If believe in Jesus meant we obey Him 24/7 flawlessly, then in that case, nobody could say they truly believe in Jesus.

No Dan. You obey Jesus when you choose to obey what He TAUGHT....


Please find out what believe means. Believe means to follow and to trust and to obey.

And I NEVER said we have to obey flawlessly...
Now THAT is a strawman.

I have seen certain folks use John 3:36 to manipulate people to adhere to a life of legalistic, fear-based obedience by convincing people that it is not belief alone that saves but belief plus obedience to Jesus (works) that saves us.

BINGO.
But that's what it is!
Why should this cause fear if we love our Lord?

Some want Jesus as their SAVIOR
but not as their LORD.

The Greek word for "not obey" in John 3:36 is used throughout the scriptures to refer to the rejection of Jesus as the Christ or disbelief in Jesus. The Greek word in John 3:36 is apeitheó which means to disbelieve, to reject, to refuse to believe. This describes the person who rejects Jesus through disbelief.

The HCSB translation sums it up nicely: "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him." There is your disobedience in John 3:36--refusing to believe in the Son.

Back to the word BELIEVE.
Let's make it simple:
WHERE in the NT does it state that we are to ONLY believe in Jesus and all will be OK?
I can't find it.

When did I say that good works are done for men? In context, Paul's point here is that the foods or other items that false teachers treat as very important are only temporary. Whether we use them, or avoid them, physical things and certain laws are only a shadow of things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. This has nothing to do with being shown to be righteous by works before God and man. (James 2:18)

I had posted Colossians 2:23-24 about how we are to work for God and not men.

You have many times stated that James 2:24 is showing our good works FOR MEN and not for God.
That James means that our good works are VISIBLE to men.

We work for GOD,,,not man.
If I do a favor for a friend,,,I'm doing it for God...not so my neighbors could see...
(although that would be a good testimony).

oops!
Only 3 pages.

 

[Free]

My answer addressed your narrative that words have different nuances of meanings.

It isn't "my narrative," it's a simple fact that anyone can confirm.

Kill, murder, manslaughter are words that carry different meanings… agreed.

But, they all have in common the word (and meaning) of death.

Which, again, isn't relevant. You will not come to a proper understanding of what anyone in a court of law is talking about when such charges arise. They are all types of death, yes, but one type means a person is innocent of wilfully killing someone and the other that it was intentional, perhaps well planned out in advance.

That's what you're ignoring when it comes to justification and why the fact that "righteous" is common to the definitions is irrelevant. It's the definitions themselves that matter, that is, how "righteous" is being used.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Justified, as Jethro Bodine pointed out is a verb.



Whether Abraham was being made righteous or was shown to be righteous matters not to me.

And therein lies the problem. It should matter very much to you. The wrong definition leads to a wrong gospel and contradictions elsewhere in the NT. It can and does only mean "was shown to be righteous" in this verse.

That only point I was making is both meanings (nuances) carry the common meaning of
righteous, (shown to be righteous or being made righteous).

Which, again, is irrelevant to the definition being used.

If you believe this word “justified” carries a completely different meaning and has nothing to do at all with the word righteous then please share with us what is you personally believe the word “justified” G1344 dikaioo means to you?

Please at least try and look like you're following along with what I have stated. I have answered this several times in several ways. Not one time have I ever even implied that '"justified" carries a completely different meaning and has nothing to do at all with the word righteous.' You would literally have had to ignored most everything I have stated to think I have made that claim.

From the Strong’s Concordance I provided a screenshot that shows three nuances of this word:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

View attachment 21092

Please stop posting this. I have two hardcopies on my bookshelf and a software version. And I have already addressed this. It would be far better if you would try and understand what I have actually stated.

 

[Free]

NO.
YOU believe in faith alone for your salvation.
Nowhere is faith alone mentioned in the NT.
And when it is,,,,it's mentioned in a negative sense.

Interesting that you made that argument. I've only seen Catholics and the OP make this argument. It is the same as arguing that since the word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible, that it isn't true. I also already addressed it a few pages back, HERE.

Jesus Himself NEVER stated to just believe in Him.

Throughout His teaching He taught good works...
He taught that we are to produce good fruit.

Where in the NT does it say to ONLY believe in Jesus and we will be saved.
Does JESUS ever say this?

Jesus "NEVER stated to just believe in Him"?

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (ESV)

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (ESV)

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (ESV)


As for the rest of the NT:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (ESV)

Act 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
Act 13:39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. (ESV)

Act 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Act 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (ESV)

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (ESV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro....
We're discussing what comes AFTER initial justification.

Being justified by works comes after initial justification by faith without works.

What you are calling initial justification is a one time imputation of God’s righteousness received when a person has faith in Jesus’ death and resurrection and which does not need to be repeated. And certainly not repeated through the keeping of God’s commands.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Again, it’s not about a work for salvation, it’s the obedience of faith.

You don't work for salvation, you work BECAUSE of your salvation, followers of Christ are God's workmanship, this causation must not be reversed.

 

[mailmandan]

mailmandan

page 3 of 4

Good grief are you writing a book?

No Dan. You obey Jesus when you choose to obey what He TAUGHT....

Unto salvation or after salvation? Not all acts of obedience are unto salvation. Many are after salvation.

Please find out what believe means. Believe means to follow and to trust and to obey.

That sounds like the Roman Catholic definition of believe. They "infuse" obedience/ works into believe/faith and call that believe.

Strong's #4100

pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in

Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

Obedience which follows is works.

A Roman Catholic once made this statement to me below:

"We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc.."

And I NEVER said we have to obey flawlessly...
Now THAT is a strawman.

So, you believe we are saved by faith plus imperfect, obedience?

BINGO.
But that's what it is!
Why should this cause fear if we love our Lord?

Your misinterpretation of John 3:36 culminates in salvation by works. Fear and bondage, to fear and bondage to insecurity is no way to live the Christian life.

Some want Jesus as their SAVIOR
but not as their LORD.

For genuine believers, Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior.

Back to the word BELIEVE.
Let's make it simple:
WHERE in the NT does it state that we are to ONLY believe in Jesus and all will be OK?
I can't find it.

(Luke 8:12; John 1:12; John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13) etc..

I had posted Colossians 2:23-24 about how we are to work for God and not men.

Read those verses in context.

You have many times stated that James 2:24 is showing our good works FOR MEN and not for God.

For God and men to see. These works are a testimony.

That James means that our good works are VISIBLE to men.

We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) Do you disagree?

We work for GOD,,,not man.

I never said we work for men.

If I do a favor for a friend,,,I'm doing it for God...not so my neighbors could see...
(although that would be a good testimony).

oops!
Only 3 pages.

Work for God, good testimony for men.

 

[mailmandan]

The above is not for me but came up when I posted a reply.

If you want to be sanctified....you MUST obey Jesus and do good works.

The moment we are justified by faith we are also sanctified (Acts 26:18; 1 Corinthians 6:11) prior to performing good works which follow salvation. (Ephesians 2:10) You put the cart before the horse.

So, in the end, ONLY FAITH is not enough....
a saved person is required to do good works.

Faith in Christ for salvation is enough.because the object of our faith (Jesus Christ) is the all sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 3:24-28) Good works "follow" having been saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Jesus said:
Luke 14:27-28 NASB
27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot * be My disciple.
28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?

Being a disciple of Jesus involves sacrifice.

There is a cost to following Jesus.
We must submit ourselves to HIM.

That's what genuine Christians do.

Romand 6:16 WE ARE SLAVES TO THE ONE TO WHOM WE PRESENT OURSELVES.

There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense: servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness.

When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Being servants of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness."

This means we must follow His commandments...
there is no chchoice.

Have you followed His commandments flawlessly, 100% of the time? No choice?

 

[mailmandan]

NO.
YOU believe in faith alone for your salvation.
Nowhere is faith alone mentioned in the NT.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (faith plus what? faith plus nothing, hence, faith alone) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (faith plus what? faith plus nothing, hence faith alone) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9. not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Not faith and works, but faith alone). Faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

And when it is,,,,it's mentioned in a negative sense.
James 2:24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works."

Context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is saying that we are not saved by faith alone.
But also by our works.

False. James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Why?
Because Jesus and every writer of the NT commanded us to do good works.

NOWHERE do the NT writers say we are saved by works. That is your eisegesis. Good works follow salvation.

YOU say because of our salvation we will do good works.
This does not sound like what Paul said.
Paul said:

You say must or else do good works/saved by good works which is not what Paul said. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Ephesians 2:10 NASB
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Yes, we should walk in them. Nothing there about saved by works in (Ephesians 2:8-10)

We were CREATED for good works.
WE are the hands and feet of God.
We MUST do good works.

It's not about must for me but will. Good works are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. We are created in Christ, Jesus unto/for good works that we should walk in them. Still nothing there about salvation by works.

Jesus wanted HIS Kingdom on earth.
Faith alone will not create that Kingdom
but only our good works.

Works will not create imputed righteousness, but faith in Jesus Christ alone will. (Romans 4:5-6) Jesus Christ is the creator of His Kingdom.

Romans 3:24-28 your verses NASB
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
1. Please show me where the above states that we are saved through the MERITS of Jesus' death.

Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. He gets the MERIT. It would take justification by law (perfect obedience) or us to MERIT our salvation. Good luck with that!

I believe it states that we are made righteous through our faith in Jesus. (I might have missed it).

There is no merit in salvation through faith. We are simply recieving a free gift. Christ gets all the merit.

2. The above verses are speaking about THE LAW OF MOSES,,,,NOT good works.
Maybe the problem is that you don't know the difference??

I know more than you think and when it comes to the moral aspect of the law of Moses, you cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a good work yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

Roman Catholics also teach that we are saved by “these” works (good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law) which is a bogus argument. Paul makes it clear that we are not merely saved by specific works of the law but also works in general. (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

And I think you know the difference Dan.

Works of the law covers it all including the moral aspect of the law, as I already explained.

Could you please post some scripture, maybe 2 or 3 verses that state that we are saved ONLY by believing in Jesus?

John 3:15,16,18. That's 3. Need more?

Jesus Himself NEVER stated to just believe in Him.

In order to obtain salvation He did. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:25; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

Throughout His teaching He taught good works...
He taught that we are to produce good fruit.

After salvation.

Where in the NT does it say to ONLY believe in Jesus and we will be saved.

(Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Does JESUS ever say this?

Yes. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:25; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

 

[GodsGrace]

Interesting that you made that argument. I've only seen Catholics and the OP make this argument. It is the same as arguing that since the word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible, that it isn't true. I also already addressed it a few pages back, HERE.

I'm addressing you here Free....not on what you wrote in "pages back".
I've written plenty on this subject and will not direct you to different forums or different threads on here.

You're referring to my comment that FAITH ALONE is only referred to one time in the NT and in the negative.
It might be Catholic, but it's the truth. If you can find another verse stating that FAITH ALONE is a correct doctrine,,,I would be happy to see it.

But you won't find it because it's not in the NT.

Martin Luther...who was the father of the term "faith alone" (we all know the story) meant that we are not required to follow the Law of Moses. We are SAVED by faith alone with no works of any kind...be they of The Law or of good works....

John Calvin stated that FAITH ALONE IS NOT DEVOID OF CHARITY/LOVE.
So even John Calvin believed that it's faith plus something -AFTER initial salvation of course - that saves us.
In this case...faith + love.

We also note:
faith + baptism 2 Peter 3:21
faith + obedience John 14:15
faith + serving the poor Matthew 25
faith + repentance & baptism Acts 2:38

I stress that this is AFTER justification which is by faith alone.

But to carry the idea of faith alone throughout one's walk with Jesus is not what Jesus taught.

It will ultimately bring to what the poster stated a couple of pages back:
our works are filthy rags to God.

Of course this is out of context...but it's what some believe due to this idea of
faith ALONE.

Jesus "NEVER stated to just believe in Him"?

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (ESV)

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (ESV)

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (ESV)


As for the rest of the NT:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (ESV)

Act 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
Act 13:39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. (ESV)

Act 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Act 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (ESV)

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (ESV)

Well, again I have to ask:
What does BELEIVE mean?

Is it an intellectual belief that the demons also have?
Or is it an experiential belief that only believers have?

Faith alone nourishes the idea that it is our belief that counts and not our behavior.
Jesus warned of this...telling the Jews not to follow the Pharisees who did not act as they taught.
Matthew 23:3 NASB
3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Action is what Jesus is after...the betterment of the Kingdom of God on earth.
Faith alone has no action.

 

[GodsGrace]

Being justified by works comes after initial justification by faith without works.

Agreed.

What you are calling initial justification is a one time imputation of God’s righteousness received when a person has faith in Jesus’ death and resurrection and which does not need to be repeated.

Agreed.
Are there, however, any "consequences" to becoming justified?
Jesus said to count the cost.
Luke 14:27-29
27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot * be My disciple.
28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29 "Otherwise *, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,

The above comes AFTER justification.
Jesus said:
We must consider what it means to follow Jesus.
We must finish building on the foundation.

And certainly not repeated through the keeping of God’s commands.

Are you saying we are not required to keep God's commands??

If so, you are proving my point.
AND
Are making a rather dangerous statement.