Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[mailmandan]

Yes. We could say we confess with our mouth BECAUSE we believe in our heart.

Yes, that is the point. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not “deeds”.

But the simple act of the obedience of faith.

Yes, "deeds."

James uses the deeds of the law of Moses to illustrate the deeds by which a man is justified (shown to be righteous).

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? 17So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action,f is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. - James 2:14-18

He's referring to Deuteronomy 15:7-8

7If there is a poor man among your brothers within any of the gates in the land that the LORD your God is giving you, then you are not to hardena your heart or shut your hand from your poor brother. 8Instead, you are to open your hand to him and freely loan him whatever he needs.

It is by the law of Moses, summarized in the royal law 'love your neighbor as yourself' that a man is justified, showing his faith to be genuine and alive. That obedience doesn't make him righteous. It shows him to possess the righteousness that comes by faith.

 

[JLB]

It should matter to you. Because if you think James is saying a man is made righteous by his obedience then you are serving the very works justification gospel condemned in scripture.

I see righteousness as a one time thing at regeneration as well as a process of becoming righteous, as He is righteous.

Much like sanctification is a process of becoming holy.


The more of His character and divine nature we mature in, the more we are becoming the righteousness of God, in Christ.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:21


We have positional righteousness in Him, while we attain experiential righteousness through maturing in His divine nature.
2 Peter 1:1-11

 

[JLB]

That obedience doesn't make him righteous.

Of course the works of the law doesn’t make us righteous.

The obedience of faith is not the works or deeds of the law.

 

[JLB]

Yes, that is the point. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

That’s my point as well.

Believing alone without publicly confessing His as LORD is the kind of believing demons do.

They believe Jesus is LORD but they still obey Satan.


Obeying the Gospel is confessing with our mouth that Jesus is LORD.

When He becomes our Lord, we must obey Him as our Lord.

 

[mailmandan]

That’s my point as well.

Believing alone without publicly confessing His as LORD is the kind of believing demons do.

They believe Jesus is LORD but they still obey Satan.

Obeying the Gospel is confessing with our mouth that Jesus is LORD.

When He becomes our Lord, we must obey Him as our Lord.

The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," (James 2:19) but they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) The demons believe that Jesus is the Lord, but they reject Him as their Lord and savior. They instead, obey Satan as their lord (small l) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Confessing is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation. It's not that we believe unto righteousness today (but are still lost) then finally publicly confess Christ next week and are finally saved next week. That is not what Paul is talking about in Romans 10:8-10. I was all by myself several years ago when I confessed that Jesus is Lord and believed in my heart that God raised Him from the dead. The moment I believed the gospel and was saved; I immediately raised my hands in the air praising Jesus as Lord and thanking Him for saving me.

 

[JLB]

by faith

Faith comes to us by hearing God speak to us.

When we do what He says, like offer your son on the altar, or get out of your country to a land that I will show you, or build an Ark or Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and we obey, then we are operating in the righteousness which is according to faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe we are made righteous, the righteousness of faith, by obeying the Gospel… which is confessing with our mouth Jesus is LORD.

Then why are you saying we are made righteous by obeying God's commands (lending to the poor, don't show favoritism, consider the widow and orphan, don't slander, etc.)?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see righteousness as a one time thing at regeneration as well as a process of becoming righteous, as He is righteous.

Which is exactly why there is no need to be made righteous through works. The person who has already been imputed the righteousness of God through faith in Christ does not need to then pursue by works the righteousness he already has by faith.

3After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?
5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe? - Galatians 3:3-5

Much like sanctification is a process of becoming holy.


The more of His character and divine nature we mature in, the more we are becoming the righteousness of God, in Christ.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:21


We have positional righteousness in Him, while we attain experiential righteousness through maturing in His divine nature.
2 Peter 1:1-11

This is all fine. But the process of becoming more and more 'experientially righteous' is not defined as a process of justification.

 

[JLB]

Confessing is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we obey the Gospel command repent.

We turn to Jesus as our Lord when in the past Satan was our lord.

Confessing Jesus as our Lord is how we are transferred from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God; into the kingdom of His dear Son.


This is how it was in that day and culture. No Democratic elections.

Kings and kingdoms.

Bending (bowing the knee to a king that was overthrowing the kingdom you were in, is how you left your present kingdom, and were transferred into the new conquering kingdom.

Confessing with the mouth Jesus as Lord, is recognizing that His kingdom is superior to the kingdom and power of Satan, and submitting to Jesus as you new LORD and King.

This is what Jesus commissioned Paul to go and do.

Paul recounts this exchange between himself and Jesus to king Agrippa.

Words of Christ in red.


So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:15-20

 

[JLB]

Which is exactly why there is no need to be made righteous through works. The person who has already been imputed the righteousness of God through faith in Christ does not need to then pursue by works the righteousness he already has by faith.

3After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?
5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe? - Galatians 3:3-5

Again, you keep bringing up and comparing the law of Moses.

Not works of the law
Not good works of righteousness
Not work that earns a wage.


The obedience of faith is equal to being led by the Spirit.

It is only by the Spirit, (Spirit of grace) that we can confess Jesus as Lord.

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3

The Spirit leads us in the ways of righteousness, so that we are becoming the righteousness of God in Christ.

So that we grow in His divine nature unto full stature sonship, whereby we come to the place of walking as He walked.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course the works of the law doesn’t make us righteous.

The obedience of faith is not the works or deeds of the law.

But James uses the deeds of the law to illustrate the obedience of faith. Example:

16If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs (Deuteronomy 15:7-8), what good is that? 17So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action,f is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. - James 2:16-18

Are you telling me "show you my faith by my deeds" (vs.18) is not the obedience of keeping of the commandments of God? It would be impossible to make that case.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith comes to us by hearing God speak to us.

When we do what He says, like offer your son on the altar, or get out of your country to a land that I will show you, or build an Ark or Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and we obey, then we are operating in the righteousness which is according to faith.

Sure. But these do not make you righteous. They show you to be righteous. They show you to have the righteousness that comes by faith, not works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Spirit leads us in the ways of righteousness, so that we are becoming the righteousness of God in Christ.

So that we grow in His divine nature unto full stature sonship, whereby we come to the place of walking as He walked.

Yes, but that's not called being justified.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again, you keep bringing up and comparing the law of Moses.

Not works of the law
Not good works of righteousness
Not work that earns a wage.


The obedience of faith is equal to being led by the Spirit.

Yes, I keep bringing up the law. Faith does in fact uphold the law:

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law (by this faith). - Romans 3:31

That's why upholding the law validates one as having the righteousness that comes by faith.

18 Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. - James 2:18

 

[JLB]

Are you telling me "show you my faith by my deeds" (vs.18) is not the obedience of keeping of the commandments of God?

If you are referring to the law of Moses then I would say the law is not of faith.

Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Galatians 3:12


When the Spirit (God) leads us, inspires us, to express our faith through acts of love then we are operating in the obedience of faith.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18


Remember, Paul is dealing with the issue of keeping the law of Moses and becoming circumcised in order to be saved, in his letter to the Galatians. Believing Pharisee’s from Jerusalem we’re going behind Paul trying to bring the churches under the law of Moses. Paul plainly taught the law was nailed to the cross, and taken out of the way.

 

[JLB]

Yes, I keep bringing up the law. Faith does in fact uphold the law:

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law (by this faith). - Romans 3:31

Yes. I like this version the best.

Uphold is a nice description of what Paul is teaching.

The law “upholds” faith on the scale of balance, since they both carry the same “weight” of measure; obedience.

Paul is making comparison between Jew and Gentile so the Church of Rome will understand and find unity.

Much like a five pound stack of hundred dollar bills upholds a five pound stack of confederate hundred dollar bills on the scales.

The only difference is confederate currency has been abolished like the law of Moses.

The point however is Paul is teaching about the law of faith verse the law of Moses.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:27-31

The law of faith upholds the law of Moses in the sense that they both carry the same weight of measure. Obedience.

 

[mailmandan]

Which is exactly why there is no need to be made righteous through works. The person who has already been imputed the righteousness of God through faith in Christ does not need to then pursue by works the righteousness he already has by faith.

3After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?
5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe? - Galatians 3:3-5

This is all fine. But the process of becoming more and more 'experientially righteous' is not defined as a process of justification.

You made some good points. There is no process of justification. That is a one-time event. (Romans 5:1) I was once in a study about sanctification though and the question raised in the study was, "is sanctification an event, a process or both?" When we are sanctified, we are set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also see progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time occurrence, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time occurrence. Here is how I see it. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

 

[mailmandan]

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

What is in the heart is expressed through the mouth.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we obey the Gospel command repent.

When we repent unto salvation (Acts 3:19; 11:17,18) we change our mind towards God and place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin.

We turn to Jesus as our Lord when in the past Satan was our lord.

Those who are sanctified by faith in Christ (Acts 26:18) have turned from darkness to light (Ephesians 5:8) and have received forgiveness of sins.

Confessing Jesus as our Lord is how we are transferred from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God; into the kingdom of His dear Son.

It's not the confessing in of itself (as a work for salvation) that transfers us from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God. It's being sanctified by faith in Christ. Confession is a confirmation of this faith. That is the heart of the issue in regard to confession.

This is how it was in that day and culture. No Democratic elections.

Kings and kingdoms.

Bending (bowing the knee to a king that was overthrowing the kingdom you were in, is how you left your present kingdom, and were transferred into the new conquering kingdom.

Confessing with the mouth Jesus as Lord, is recognizing that His kingdom is superior to the kingdom and power of Satan, and submitting to Jesus as you new LORD and King.

This is what Jesus commissioned Paul to go and do.

Paul recounts this exchange between himself and Jesus to king Agrippa.

Words of Christ in red.

Confessing that Jesus is Lord by the Holy Spirit, along with believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead is conviction of the heart. It's not about simply reciting the words, "Jesus is Lord" as a work for salvation but acknowledging and professing allegiance to Christ.

So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:15-20

Again, those who are sanctified by faith have turned from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God and have received forgiveness of sins. When we repent, we change our mind towards God about our sinful position and acknowledge our sin and need for a Savior. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) We then place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation in order to be saved. (Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8)

Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side (what you change your mind about) and faith in Christ is on the positive side, the new direction of this change of mind.

The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance (change of mind). Certain people confuse the "fruit of repentance" with the "essence of repentance" (and also do the same thing with faith) and end up teaching salvation by works.

 

[JLB]

When we repent, we change our mind towards God about our sinful position and acknowledge our sin and need for a Savior.

Repent means turn to God in submission to Him as Lord, which plainly means turning away from Satan as our Lord.

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:19-20