Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[mailmandan]

I'm replying because your post is inaccurate.

WHERE does JESUS state anything about being saved or not being saved
in ANY of the fruitless verses? NOWHERE.

In scripture, good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life, and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 7:15-20) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad).

So now you're a calvinist?

I'm not a Calvinist.

It's the reformed that state that our fruits will confirm our election.

I agree with the Roman Catholic church about the Trinity but that does not make me a Roman Catholic either.

So WHERE in the NT does JESUS state that our fruit will confirm our salvation?
What He states is very simple:

No fruit....THE BRANCH IS CUT DOWN. John 15:2
No fruit....THE FIG TREE WILL BE CUT DOWN. Luke 13:6-9

In Matthew 7:17-20, Jesus said - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them. This should help give you some clarity with John 5:28-29 and Romans 2:5-10.

This NOMINAL CHRISTIAN IDEA is yours.

No, there are many people who claim to be Christian but are Christian "in name only." See Matthew 7:22-23 for example. They even called Jesus "Lord" yet Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved.

Jesus says we are either saved by our good works
or will be damned by our evil works.

John 5:28-29

When good works are mentioned in connection with salvation, they works are the result of, not the condition of, obtaining salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. We show our faith by our works.

Here's another LOADED QUESTION for you:
WHO did the Father's will?
Another member asked this but no one replied because the answer is too uncomfortable.
As are all LOADED QUESTIONS....unless, of course, the reply aligns with the bible....then there are
NO loaded questions because they all have an easy reply.

Those who promote salvation by works asked loaded questions.

Matthew 21 NASB
28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.'
29 "And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went.
30 "The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I will, sir '; but he did not go.
31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?"

It's obvious which one did the will of his father in this situation.

So you DO believe in works?

I believe in doing good works as a Christian but not as a means to obtaining or maintaining salvation.

I hear many state that they are saved but our good works are like dirty rags to God.
They sincerely believe they're saved.
So you're saying they are NOT saved?

All our righteousness are as filthy rags. Our own efforts to be righteous are insufficient. (Philippians 3:8-9)

IF this is what you believe...then you IMMEDIATELY should begin to preach good works.
And stop trying to explain WHY we should do good works.

I preach good works as the fruit of salvation. Just not the root of it.

THIS is why:
BECAUSE JESUS DEMANDS IT.
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

1 of 2

What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments?

 

[mailmandan]

mailmandan

2 of 2

I'm sure Robertson is a scholarly person.
But these men have differing opinions and we tend to believe the one that agrees with us.
You want to read what MEN said?
Try reading the Early Church Fathers...they were taught by the APOSTELS.
It's a little better than Reading Robertson.

The early church fathers did not all agree either and Roman Catholics quote them quite often to prove unbiblical doctrines. I only quoted AT Robertson (not because I believe he is infallible) but because I agreed with him here and thought he made a very good point. Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

Let's see what JESUS says about the branches....AGAIN

John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
JESUS IS THE VINE. THE VINE GOES INTO THE GROUND AND GIVES NOURISHMENT TO THE FRUIT.

2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
GOD FATHER IS THE VINEDRESSER...
IF A BRANCH DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT....GOD CUTS IT AWAY.
IF IT BEARS FRUIT IT IS PRUNED SO THAT IT WILL BEAR EVEN MORE FRUIT.

3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
THE HEARERS ARE ALREADY CLEAN...ALREADY SAVED. ALREADY JUSTIFIED.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot * bear fruit of itself unless * it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless * you abide in Me.
WE MUST ABIDE IN THE VINE, JESUS, THE VINE THAT GIVES NOURISHMENT.

They were already clean except for Judas Iscariot. (John 13:10-11) Judas did not abide, and it was not because he lost his salvation, but because he was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) Hence, cut off.

5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *.
JESUS IS SPEAKING OF SAVED PERSONS ABIDING IN HIM.
THEY WILL BEAR MUCH FRUIT...WHAT HE EXPECTS.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
IF WE DO NOT ABIDE...DO NOT BEAR FRUIT, WE ARE LIKE A DEAD BRANCH THAT IS CUT OFF.

Only saved people abide. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. Self-attached branches/false believers do not continue. In John 8:31, notice that Jesus said, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. Those who do not continue were not truly His disciples.

I'd say that verse 6 shows that OSAS is DOA.
However, let's not lose sight of verse 1....
branches that do not bear fruit will be cut off.

Again, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit. Hence, cut off.

In me (εν εμο). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, μη φερον καρπον) the vine-dresser "takes away" (αιρε) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

This is repeated in
Matthew 7:17-21
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot * produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
A good tree MUST bear good fruit.
If a tree does NOT bear good fruit it is cut down.
We are known by our fruit.

A good tree MUST bear good fruit or WILL? Jesus said EVERY GOOD TREE BEARS GOOD FRUIT. Does that sound like MUST to you or WILL? Where did Jesus say a good tree bears no fruit in Matthew 7:17-21?

So WHY teach a new Christian that good fruit is to SHOW we are saved?
(which it does).
Why not teach them that IF THEY DO NOT BEAR FRUIT...they will be cut down?

I encourage new Christians to do good works because they glorify God, and they are also good and profitable to men. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) I don't resort to fearmongering when it comes to good works.

 

[JLB]

What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments?

It means to obey them.

Keeping His commandments is the biblical definition of love.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15


Surely you agree agree if we commit adultery with our neighbors wife, we are not loving our neighbor.



JLB

 

[mailmandan]

It means to obey them.

Keeping His commandments is the biblical definition of love.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15

Surely you agree agree if we commit adultery with our neighbors wife, we are not loving our neighbor.

JLB

It means to guard, observe, watch over and does not mean flawless, perfect obedience 100% of the time/sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over

 

[onlysaved]

That makes no sense. How can a person remain in Christ if they were never in Christ to begin with.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
John 15:5-7

How can a person be “in Christ” yet never be saved?

In Christ refers to someone who is saved; who is one with Christ, on spirit with Christ, thus one spirit with the Spirit of life in Christ.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

A person cannot be in Christ and unsaved.
Branches that are cut off were never really in Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

A person cannot be in Christ and unsaved.
Branches that are cut off were never really in Christ.

In John 15:2, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In regard to John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The works JESUS demands of you and which good works will get you into heaven,,,
just as He stated in John 5:28-29 THOSE WITH GOOD WORKS TO AN ETERNAL LIFE..

Explain how you come to the conclusion that this means you make yourself righteous enough by doing good works to be eligible to enter into eternal life.

 

[JLB]

It means to guard, observe, watch over and does not mean flawless, perfect obedience 100% of the time/sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over

To keep God’s commandments is to do His commandments; to obey His commandments.

If we violate one of His commandments then thank God we can confess our sin, and be cleansed.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:9-2:2

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Wouldn’t you agree that if we do sin, we can confess our sin and be forgiven?

 

[mailmandan]

To keep God’s commandments is to do His commandments; to obey His commandments.

If we violate one of His commandments then thank God we can confess our sin, and be cleansed.

Have you flawlessly obeyed all of God's commandments 100% of the time? If not, have you successfully kept an inventory of every time you violated one of His commandments and confessed your sin without forgetting one?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:9-2:2

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Wouldn’t you agree that if we do sin, we can confess our sin and be forgiven?

Notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

Certain people seem to misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory of every sin) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin we are toast!" Who could actually write an exhaustive list of every sin they have ever committed or ever will commit? Sin is not only missing the mark by what we do but also what we fail to do. (James 4:17)

Believers "confess" (Greek - homologeó) speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast with saying that we have no sin or that we have not sinned. (1 John 1:8-10)

 

[JLB]

A person cannot be in Christ and unsaved.

I agree.

Branches that are cut off were never really in Christ.

But clearly Jesus teaching about branches that are “in Him”.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;…
John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Did you just state that faith is all about obeying the whole law?
I don't think you mean that.

I do mean that:

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law (by this faith). - Romans 3:31

9The commandments “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”a and any other commandments, are summed up in this one decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”b 10Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. - Romans 13:9-10

Having faith is all about fulfilling the whole law of God summed up in "love your neighbor as yourself". That's the sign that you are saved, not the way you get saved:

17If anyone with earthly possessions sees his brother in need, but withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God abide in him? - 1 John 3:17

 

[JLB]

Have you flawlessly obeyed all of God's commandments 100% of the time?

Absolutely not. Especially when I first got saved.

I have had to learn over the years many hard lessons about sin.

I eventually learned to avoid ungodly relationships who go to ungodly places for the purpose of doing ungodly things.

I also learned about replacing ungodly habits with Spirit led habits that would begin to lead me into a Spirit led lifestyle.

The fear of the Lord is a beautiful thing.

Walking in the light doesn’t mean sinless perfection.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Notice in this verse that the blood of Jesus cleanses those who walk in the light.

However, it does mean if we do sin, we need to confess our sins.

 

[onlysaved]

I agree.



But clearly Jesus teaching about branches that are “in Him”.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;…
John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

Well then He must not be referring to people who are true believers. In Him must mean something else.
Lots of people were following Jesus during His ministry on earth but left when persecution started.. people saw the loaves and fishes and then turned away.

 

[JLB]

Well then He must not be referring to people who are true believers. In Him must mean something else.

Why do you say that?

Jesus plainly warned all of His disciples, His Apostles to remain in Him.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how this same John instructs us to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

 

[onlysaved]

Why do you say that?

Jesus plainly warned all of His disciples, His Apostles to remain in Him.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how this same John instructs us to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Yeah, ok... just because Jesus says you should do something doesn't mean many people actually do it.
People have free will. They can choose not to abide in Christ and become dead branches.
Remember, the Word "believe " means to start believing and always believe thereafter. A person who stops abiding in Christ never truly believed.

If one such as Judas could be in Jesus's inner circle, how many outside of it could He have been talking to? At LEAST 1 in 12 of the people He preached to?


If the sermon on the mount doesn't teach you that Jesus wasn't about rules. I don't know what will.

Jesus is about personal relationships not about rules. Stay close to Jesus and you'll bear fruit, do good works and be saved.

King David, the man after God's own heart. If anyone in history earned a one way ticket to Hell it was him. He murdered a just man so he could steal his wife. And this. AFTER a close personal relationship with God in which he experienced God's miraculous deliverance and closeness most of us could only wish to experience. He got comfortable in his palace and stopped abiding in God stopped bearing fruit and got pruned quote severely.

The biggest take away from all of this. We do not know what's going on in people's walk with God. We should not judge people's walk with God. It's none of our business. We are not works inspectors. That happens later by someone else.

If you think someone is saved or not saved on account of what you see them do in the 5 minutes of their life that you observe your making an assumption based on ignorance.

The bible clearly says 2 things.

1. We are saved by Grace through faith in Christ alone.
2. Those who are saved by grace alone through faith in Christ will do good works and bear fruit. This is done as a natural outflow of living a life close to God. It is not a striving effort accomplished by man.

Now let's stop this silly debate based entirely on semantics.

 

[JLB]

Yeah, ok... just because Jesus says you should do something doesn't mean many people actually do it.

If you want to remain in Christ, then we should do what He tells us to do.

That’s the whole idea of Jesus becoming our Lord.

Our master is the one we obey.

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46

 

[JLB]

If the sermon on the mount doesn't teach you that Jesus wasn't about rules. I don't know what will.

Rules? I didn’t mention rules.

His commandments are not burdensome and they define what love is and by default what hate is.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

It’s all about love; loving God by loving our neighbor.

If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20

If a person doesn’t want to love, then that person surely wouldn’t want to be in heaven. That person is better suited for hell.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The FRUITLESS branch...the saved person...will be taken away.

No, the fruitless branch is not saved.

8The one who practices sin is of the devil...

9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God... - 1 John 3:8-10

You don't get unsaved by not doing works. You show yourself to be unsaved by not doing works.

The only way a saved person can be fruitless and condemned by that fruitlessness is they would have to go back to unbelief, assuming that's even possible.

 

[onlysaved]

If you want to remain in Christ, then we should do what He tells us to do.

That’s the whole idea of Jesus becoming our Lord.

Our master is the one we obey.

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46

That is exactly my point..

Most people do not do what they should.

 

[follower]

That is exactly my point..

Most people do not do what they should.

.... and how can they, with no one to show them ?