Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[JLB]

Only the person with disingenuous faith has dead faith, not real believers with real faith. James is condemning fake believers who don't have works because they are fake believers:

Ok.

This is where I bow out. I’m not going to continue to discuss things the scripture doesn’t say.

Be blessed.

 

[JLB]

I do not agree on that point.
Faith without action is simply not genuine faith and nothing remotely spiritual has taken place.

Where did the faith come from that was not acted upon?

 

[JLB]

It's just intellectual acceptance of facts, just like the demons believe

Your mixing together faith with believing.

Faith is a noun, it comes from God when He speaks to us.

Believe is our part, what we must do, the action we take in response to what God says to us, by which we receive faith.

 

[onlysaved]

Where did the faith come from that was not acted upon?

There never was any.

 

[JLB]

I do not agree on that point.
Faith without action is simply not genuine faith and nothing remotely spiritual has taken place.
Faith without works as James calls it was not from God at all and with such "faith" no salvation occurred.
It's just intellectual acceptance of facts, just like the demons believe.

The Greek word for believe means to put ones trust in, furthermore the tense of this verb is continual. Meaning it starts at one point and continues on indefinitely. It marks a turning point in one's life. You turn away from ruling your own life to live a life for God. Now some of us don't do the Godly living all that well from time to time but the direction we point our lives is always towards Jesus and as we go along God guides us, makes us grow and keeps us clean. Our sin is forgiven so we don't need to dwell on our failings ( which some of us wrongly do anyway) We keep moving forward, sometimes faster than others. Along the way we bear the fruit that proves our faith in genuine. This occurs over time even though salvation is instantaneous and permanent upon Faith in Christ.
Those who turn away?
One of two things has happened or is happening.
1. Their faith was never genuine.
2. God as let them go for a time and will bring them to repentance. Like the guy who was sexually immoral in 1st Corinthians.

God is in control and He knows who are His. The ONLY person we need to be worried about in terms of behavior and salvation is ourselves. We are best to just take everyone else at face value and not be Judgmental.

Pray, give answers to those who ask and live lives that reflect the charecter of God. That's about all we can do.... and it's plenty.

I’m discussing what the topic of this thread is about which is about faith alone.

Faith alone, all by itself is dead, if it doesn’t have the action of obedience.

Faith that only comes from God, alone it it doesn’t have the corresponding action of obedience is dead.

Discussing how we live our lives, and if a born again Christian can sin and other such things are important things to discuss, but that’s not the topic of this thread.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

James is referring to faith. Faith alone, Faith by itself.

James is not referring to no faith.


The “work” that James is referring to is obedience to do what God says, by which we receive faith from Him.

In the case of Abraham it was to offer His son Isaac on the altar.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22

 

[JLB]

There never was any.

Really?

This says faith by itself…

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Faith alone; actual faith that is from God, by itself if it doesn’t have the action of obedience is dead.

Non existent faith is neither dead or alive, it’s non existent.


I’m talking the about the faith James refers to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ok.

This is where I bow out. I’m not going to continue to discuss things the scripture doesn’t say.

Be blessed.

You are ignoring the whole counsel of scripture. You are un-rightly dividing James 2 away from what John says about people who do not practice righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James is referring to faith. Faith alone, Faith by itself.

James is referring to the claim of faith that is alone.

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such (claim to) faith save him? James 2:14

 

[JLB]

You are ignoring the whole counsel of scripture. You are un-rightly dividing James 2 away from what John says about people who do not practice righteousness.

If you want to discuss what the scripture’s actually say and stay within the topic of the OP, then I will be glad to hear you.

If you want to argue about what James is not saying and then count me out.

I’m discussing faith, and how faith by itself is dead.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Faith alone; actual faith that is from God, by itself if it doesn’t have the action of obedience is dead.

Non existent faith is neither dead or alive, it’s non existent.

I’m talking the about the faith James refers to.

Faith comes to us by hearing God.

When we do what God has spoken to us to do, our faith tha we received from God is activated to accomplish what God intended.

Otherwise if we don’t obey to do what God spoke to us to do, our faith that we received from God is dead; dormant, inactive.

Just like a body without a spirit is dead, faith without the action of obedience is dead.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


I’m not talking about righteous deeds or good works.

I’m strictly referring to faith; the principle of faith, and how faith requires obedience.

I’m not even referring to salvation. Just the basic principle of faith.

Here is the example I used about the woman with the issue of blood. No salvation or justification involved.


And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
Matthew 9:20-22

Her faith came to her from God inspiring her what to do, even though it violated the law of Moses for a woman who was unclean to touch a Rabbi, she pressed passed her fears and touched the hem of His garment, and the anointing was released into her because of her faith in action, in obedience to God.

This is an example of the obedience of faith.

Just like Abraham, Noah and many others.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you want to discuss what the scripture’s actually say and stay within the topic of the OP, then I will be glad to hear you.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

A claim to have faith. That's what it says.

Faith alone; actual faith that is from God, by itself if it doesn’t have the action of obedience is dead.

Where does it say 'actual faith that is from God'? I see where it says a claim to have faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When we do what God has spoken to us to do, our faith tha we received from God is activated to accomplish what God intended.

Why does faith have to be activated to accomplish something if we already did the something to get the faith to do it?

 

[JLB]

A claim to have faith. That's what it says.


Where does it say 'actual faith that is from God'? I see where it says a claim to have faith.

I have posted this scripture several times.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Faith Jethro, faith comes from God.

The actual faith we have when we hear God, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

[JLB]

Why does faith have to be activated to accomplish something if we already did the something to get the faith to do it?

What do we do to get faith?

What did Abraham do to get God to command him to offer his son Isaac on the altar?

Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
Genesis 22:1-2

 

[Free]

I’m discussing what the topic of this thread is about which is about faith alone.

The issue is, the topic of this thread is based on error, on a straw man:

"1. The common teaching of justification by faith alone, is that justification is only by faith alone, and never by nor with works.

That's important to understand, because that forbids any works added to one's faith alone, lest their faith is not alone, being with works: For faith alone apart from works to ever justify a person, then any faith with works must never justify the soul."

First, it's based on an incorrect definition of justification. Second, justification is by grace alone, through faith alone.

Faith alone, all by itself is dead, if it doesn’t have the action of obedience.

Faith that only comes from God, alone it it doesn’t have the corresponding action of obedience is dead.

Discussing how we live our lives, and if a born again Christian can sin and other such things are important things to discuss, but that’s not the topic of this thread.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

James is referring to faith. Faith alone, Faith by itself.

James is not referring to no faith.


The “work” that James is referring to is obedience to do what God says, by which we receive faith from Him.

In the case of Abraham it was to offer His son Isaac on the altar.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22

You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. You actually agree on almost everything, while at the same time trying to refute those very things.

 

[JLB]

The issue is, the topic of this thread is based on error, on a straw man:

Please point out the error in these words -


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Faith alone, if it doesn’t have works (the action of obedience) is dead.

 

[JLB]

You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. You actually agree on almost everything, while at the same time trying to refute those very things.

Has anyone agreed that faith alone is dead?

Did I miss something?

 

[onlysaved]

Really?

This says faith by itself…

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Faith alone; actual faith that is from God, by itself if it doesn’t have the action of obedience is dead.

Non existent faith is neither dead or alive, it’s non existent.


I’m talking the about the faith James refers to.

Taking it too literal... James is saying dead faith is no faith at all. May be a sort of belief in the facts but that's about it and that is not what it means to believe the Gospel.

 

[Free]

Please point out the error in these words -


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Faith alone, if it doesn’t have works (the action of obedience) is dead.

You're not understanding the OP, even after I gave a quick explanation. Why is that?

Has anyone agreed that faith alone is dead?

Everyone who you're arguing with has, as far as I have seen.

Did I miss something?

Apparently.

 

[onlysaved]

I’m discussing what the topic of this thread is about which is about faith alone.

Faith alone, all by itself is dead, if it doesn’t have the action of obedience.

Faith that only comes from God, alone it it doesn’t have the corresponding action of obedience is dead.

Discussing how we live our lives, and if a born again Christian can sin and other such things are important things to discuss, but that’s not the topic of this thread.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

James is referring to faith. Faith alone, Faith by itself.

James is not referring to no faith.


The “work” that James is referring to is obedience to do what God says, by which we receive faith from Him.

In the case of Abraham it was to offer His son Isaac on the altar.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22

Faith without actions is not faith at all... which is what we see throughout the bible... but it the faith that saves and leads to the obedience. It may seem like a small difference but the ramifications are huge. It's the difference between the Gospel and....... something else.
Paul taught that if you trust in the law for salvation then you had to obey is all the time perfectly.
Same with doing good works. If you trust good works for your salvation you have to do every good work every single time and do them perfectly.

 

[JLB]

Taking it too literal... James is saying dead faith is no faith at all. May be a sort of belief in the facts but that's about it and that is not what it means to believe the Gospel.

I don’t see where “no faith” is mentioned.

Just faith without works (obedience) is what James is teaching.

No faith is no faith. I think we all agree on this.

No faith means God has not spoken to you.


That of course is not the subject of discussion.


The topic is faith by itself (alone) is dead.