Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Jethro Bodine]

There's no doubt about John 15 speaking of a true believer . or any parable about branches.

No. Not true.

20 They were broken off because of unbelief Romans 11:20

Unbelieving branches are not true believers. It is the unbelieving branches that are cut out of the tree/vine, not believing branches.

 

[JLB]

So James is clearly talking about people with fake 'faith' that doesn't do anything, and the matter of whether or not it was ever genuine and active being irrelevant to the point being made.

There is no such thing as “fake faith”.


A person either has faith from God or not.

If the person who has received faith from God doesn’t do what the word from God, the word of faith, then their faith remains in a dormant, inactive (dead) state, and is unable to function and produce the blessing that God intended.

And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
Matthew 9:20-22

When God moved upon, inspired, spoke to this woman’s heart to go and touch the hem of His garment, she had faith for healing for God as a gift. (An unearned, unmerited gift)

When she responded in obedience, her faith was activated to produce the intended blessing of healing.

The faith we receive from God as a gift, becomes our faith, faith that was given to us from God. When we obey the word of faith our faith we received from God is complete and activated to go from something we hope for that is unseen, to the reality of the thing we obtain.

Whether, salvation, healing, a wife or a husband or a child we have asked for, a job…. Faith works the same for anything we receive from God.

“By faith” literal means God spoke to us, and we did what He told us do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no such thing as “fake faith”.


A person either has faith from God or not.

And that is my point.

Pretending to have faith in an empty confession of faith is the equivalent of not having faith. The people James is talking about are people who do not really have faith. If they did, they would be producing the fruit of faith, showing themselves to have the life blood of the Vine, the Spirit, in them.

 

[JLB]

Then you are saying demons have faith.

Does God speak to demons to be saved, healed, justified, blessed…

Believe is not faith.

Believe is our part that we do in response to God speaking to us, by which we receive faith.

Demons believe there is one God.

That has nothing to do with faith.

 

[JLB]

Pretending to have faith in an empty confession of faith is the equivalent of not having faith.

Pretending to have faith?

What does that mean?

There is only one way to receive faith, and that’s from God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If the person who has received faith from God doesn’t do what the word from God, the word of faith, then their faith remains in a dormant, inactive (dead) state

The person who doesn't do the word of God doesn't have faith from God.

17If anyone with earthly possessions sees his brother in need, but withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God abide in him? 1 John 3:17

It's a rhetorical question, of course. The love of God doesn't dwell in him who does not obey God's command to lend to the poor. This person does not have faith. Dead faith is no faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Demons believe there is one God.

That has nothing to do with faith.

That's my point exactly.

The demons faith is dead because dead faith is the equivalent of having no faith.

 

[JLB]

The people James is talking about are people who do not really have faith.

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:20-21

James here in v. 20 is referring to a person that has faith.
What their lacking is the corresponding action of obedience.

Verse 21, James gives a specific example using Abraham.

God spoke to Abraham to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

Abraham now has faith.

When Abraham actually went to offer his son Isaac on the altar, his faith was now compete and activated to produce the divine result of justification.

We know from other passages about this story that Abraham believe God would raise Isaac from the dead, because he had believed God years ago when God told him his descendants would be as the stars of heaven. Abraham believed then and he continued to believe even when God told him to sacrifice his son.

This act of obedience, the obedience of faith, completed the scripture that said, Abraham believed God…


JLB

 

[JLB]

The person who doesn't do the word of God doesn't have faith from God.

The faith comes when we hear God.

Faith comes by hearing God.

From this point we must choose to obey or not.

If we don’t obey the word of faith the faith we have is dead.

 

[JLB]

What is that good fruit?

We are called to reproduce the Seed.

Jesus wants to reproduce Himself in us.

The image of God.

What is God?

God is love.

Paul says in his letter to the Galatians "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,"

If you have these or these are increasing in your life it is excellent evidence that you are a branch that is producing good fruit.

Absolutely.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Pretending to have faith?

What does that mean?

False brethren.

26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 2 Corinthians 11:26

5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these! 2 Timothy 3:5

13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. 1 Corinthians 11:13-15

Contrast that with genuine faith:

7These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 1 Peter 1:7

5I am reminded of your sincere faith, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am convinced is in you as well. 2 Timothy 1:5

See, there really is a difference between fake faith and genuine faith.

 

[onlysaved]

When we receive faith from God, it’s the same for everyone, we receive it in a dormant, inactive (dead) and incomplete state.

The faith we receive must be activated or “made alive” by obeying what God says for us to do.

This is called the obedience of faith.

If we don’t obey the word of faith from God then our gait remains dormant, inactive, incomplete and therefore dead, just like a body without a spirit is lifeless because it’s incomplete and does not function, so also faith without obedience is dead.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

Faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead.


My point: you actually have to have faith for it to be dead.




JLB

I do not agree on that point.
Faith without action is simply not genuine faith and nothing remotely spiritual has taken place.
Faith without works as James calls it was not from God at all and with such "faith" no salvation occurred.
It's just intellectual acceptance of facts, just like the demons believe.

The Greek word for believe means to put ones trust in, furthermore the tense of this verb is continual. Meaning it starts at one point and continues on indefinitely. It marks a turning point in one's life. You turn away from ruling your own life to live a life for God. Now some of us don't do the Godly living all that well from time to time but the direction we point our lives is always towards Jesus and as we go along God guides us, makes us grow and keeps us clean. Our sin is forgiven so we don't need to dwell on our failings ( which some of us wrongly do anyway) We keep moving forward, sometimes faster than others. Along the way we bear the fruit that proves our faith in genuine. This occurs over time even though salvation is instantaneous and permanent upon Faith in Christ.
Those who turn away?
One of two things has happened or is happening.
1. Their faith was never genuine.
2. God as let them go for a time and will bring them to repentance. Like the guy who was sexually immoral in 1st Corinthians.

God is in control and He knows who are His. The ONLY person we need to be worried about in terms of behavior and salvation is ourselves. We are best to just take everyone else at face value and not be Judgmental.

Pray, give answers to those who ask and live lives that reflect the charecter of God. That's about all we can do.... and it's plenty.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The faith comes when we hear God.

Faith comes by hearing God.

From this point we must choose to obey or not.

If we don’t obey the word of faith the faith we have is dead.

If you don't obey the word of faith by which faith comes you lose that faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:20-21

He's talking about a claim of having faith:

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? James 2:14

The claim to have faith but have no works is to have no faith.

 

[JLB]

False brethren.

26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 2 Corinthians 11:26

5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these! 2 Timothy 3:5

13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. 1 Corinthians 11:13-15

There are certainly false brethren.

Whether they had faith then departed from the faith or never had faith to begin with, is not known.

What I’m discussing is the principle of faith, and how faith operates.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James here in v. 20 is referring to a person that has faith.
What their lacking is the corresponding action of obedience.

No he is referring to a person who claims to have faith. That's what he said.

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? James 2:14

 

[JLB]

The claim to have faith but have no works is to have no faith.

The subject James is discussing and I’m discussing is faith, and how faith operates or doesn’t operate.

James is plainly saying if a person says they have faith but no obedience then the faith they have or claim to have is dead.

James is not referring to having no faith.

James is only making a point about faith being dead or not.

A person must actually have faith in order for their faith that they have or claim to have to be dead.

There is no reason to talk in circles about what James has never mentioned.

 

[JLB]

No he is referring to a person who claims to have faith. That's what he said.

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? James 2:14

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:14-17

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Again, the point James is making is faith without the work of obedience is dead.

James never says that a person who has no work of obedience doesn’t have faith.

He says their faith can’t save them because it’s dead.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Again, the point James is making is faith without the work of obedience is dead.

James never says that a person who has no work of obedience doesn’t have faith.

Only the person with disingenuous faith has dead faith, not real believers with real faith. James is condemning fake believers who don't have works because they are fake believers:

10 Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God 1 John 3:10

There is no such thing as a person who has genuine faith but has no works:

9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

You'll have to refute these verses to somehow make your case that real faith can go on sinning and not work.

He says their faith can’t save them because it’s dead.

Because it's not real faith. That's why it can't save them. There is no such thing as real faith that is by itself. People with real faith don't practice sin. People with fake faith do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A person must actually have faith in order for their faith that they have or claim to have to be dead.

No, a person must actually have faith for it not to be dead.

Truly born again people don't continue in sin. That's what the Bible says. You've invented a fake, non-existent person who has real faith but who continues in sin.