Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Jethro Bodine]

Concerning the matter of sin, and remaining in Christ, we do have clear instructions about that as well.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• If anyone does not abide in Me,

The way we are instructed to remain in Christ is equally clear.

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

But you said the unfruitfulness that results in being cut out of the vine is not about sin. Now you have the unfruitfulness of the branches being the sin of not keeping the commandments. Which is it?

 

[JLB]

I appreciate your efforts but I do not agree with your thesis. By your thinking, there is NO Trinity as the specific word is not in the Bible so then it is an unbiblical term.

There is no thesis.

Faith alone is a biblical term.

Faith indeed can be alone.

Here it is again.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Faith alone is dead.
Faith alone can not save.

Therefore the idea that we are saved by faith alone is unbiblical.

You can say whatever you like, but the word of God remains the same.

Faith alone, faith all by itself is dead.

Like a body without a spirit is dead, Faith alone is dead.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

 

[JLB]

But you said the unfruitfulness that results in being cut out of the vine is not about sin.

I said that unfruitful branches are removed by the Father.

That principle is found in John 15:1-2

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

So this involves the Father removing unfruitful branches that are in Him.

Now comes the appeal to remain in Him.

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


It’s one thing to become justified.

It’s another to remain justified.

It’s all about the obedience of faith, something you deny.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What happens if one of His sheep wanders away and becomes lost?

Are they still justified?

It depends on why they wandered away. If the 'believer' wanders away because of unbelief they lose the justification they had, or, they show they never had it. Either way, the 'believer' who falls away because of unbelief has zero justification in Christ. It's irrelevant if he lost it or never had it to begin with. That person has no justification in Christ.

But the believing person who falls away because of weakness, or ignorance, they continue in the justification they have through their continued believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith alone is a biblical term.

Faith indeed can be alone.

Here it is again.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Faith alone is dead.
Faith alone can not save.

Therefore the idea that we are saved by faith alone is unbiblical.

You're making a few of mistakes here. (Lengthy, but please bear with me, here.)

First off, genuine faith can NOT be 'alone'. John makes it crystal clear that the true believer can not remain (abide/continue) in sin. If he does, he is showing himself to not be born again, he has no faith by which to have become a child of God:

8The one who practices sin is of the devil 1 John 3:8

You keep creating this fictitious person who abides in sin but is of God. It's impossible, scripturally, that James is talking about that kind of person, because the Bible says that person does not exist.

Secondly, you are erroneously projecting James' "not by faith alone" argument onto Paul's "righteousness by faith apart from works" argument. James is making no argument that righteousness is by faith and works. That puts James and Paul so utterly in contradiction with each other that, if they really are contradicting each other, we can all just throw our Bibles away and go back to our sin.

Thirdly, you confuse becoming a saved person with being saved from God's wrath at the final judgment. You become a saved person entirely by God's grace and mercy in the forgiveness of your sin when you first believe, apart from and without consideration of any righteous work you have performed. That is Paul's argument.

At the resurrection, good works are required in that they are the expected and obligatory works that people who are born again of God perform (that 1 John 3:8-10 thing), thus showing them to be born again believers who can enter the kingdom of God. That's James' argument. It is only in that sense that we are 'saved' by our works.

Works of righteousness are the evidence upon which the already saved person escapes the wrath of God and enters into the kingdom. They don't make him saved. That is not what James is saying. Righteous obedience is the distinguishing 'mark' in the flesh, the spiritual circumcision of the heart that shows that you belong to God in salvation, not earns you salvation. Circumcision of the heart in the putting off of the deeds of the flesh is useful toward sorting the sheep from the goats at the resurrection. The putting off of the deeds of the flesh in no way MAKES you a saved person. That is the works justification gospel that Paul condemned.

Circumcision of the heart in the putting off of the deeds of the flesh is the sign of the righteousness you already have by faith, apart from works, just as Abraham's circumcision that he received after he believed God's promise of a son was the sign of the righteousness of faith he had while still uncircumcised.

11And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. Romans 4:11

Maybe this is a little hard for you to understand at first, but the bottom line is, circumcision of the heart (the putting off of the deeds of the flesh) is the SIGN of the righteousness you already have, not the way you obtain righteousness. Abraham was not declared righteous because he got circumcised, rather, Abraham got circumcised because he was declared righteous. Obedience is the sign of righteousness, not the procurer of it. And, surely, no one without that sign will be saved when Jesus comes back. No one is arguing against that.

 

[JLB]

Secondly, you are erroneously projecting James' "not by faith alone" argument onto Paul's "righteousness by faith apart from works" argument. James is making no argument that righteousness is by faith and works. That puts James and Paul so utterly in contradiction with each other that, if they really are contradicting each other, we can all just throw our Bibles away and go back to our sin.

James and Paul teach exactly the same principle of faith.

There is no contradiction.

Faith without the “work” or action of obedience is dead.

People mix up the works of the law with the obedience of faith.


James correctly teaches faith alone is dead.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17


The only question is do you believe that faith by itself is dead?

 

[JLB]

First off, genuine faith can NOT be 'alone'. John makes it crystal clear that the true believer can not remain (abide/continue) in sin. If he does, he is showing himself to not be born again, he has no faith by which to have become a child of God:

8The one who practices sin is of the devil 1 John 3:8

Practices sin.

A born again Christian who is in Christ who does not walk according to the Spirit and practices sin as a lifestyle will not remain in Christ.

It doesn’t mean he was never born again.

It means he has chosen to continue in his sinful behavior rather than repenting and confessing his sin and being forgiven and cleansed.

Example: The lost sheep. The prodigal son.

God will deal with a person to repent and be forgiven but if they refuse God will allow them to suffer until they are ready to return.

If they never return then they will remain lost.

The very definition of lost is founded on the concept you belonged to God, then you became lost.

The parable of the lost sheep, then you lost coin, the prodigal son illustrate this point.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

• But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James correctly teaches faith alone is dead.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

So what does that have to do with being justified (made righteous)?

 

[Rodger]

There is no thesis.

Faith alone is a biblical term.

Faith indeed can be alone.

Here it is again.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Faith alone is dead.
Faith alone can not save.

Therefore the idea that we are saved by faith alone is unbiblical.

You can say whatever you like, but the word of God remains the same.

Faith alone, faith all by itself is dead.

Like a body without a spirit is dead, Faith alone is dead.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

Bad choice of words. "Opinion" would have been a better word.

I agree......"Faith alone" is a Biblical teaching.

Sola fide, which means "faith alone," is important because it is one of the distinguishing characteristics or key points that separate the true biblical Gospel from false gospels. At stake is the very Gospel itself and it is therefore a matter of eternal life or death.

I really do not care that you do not comprehend Sola Fide, it is like most everything else...your choice!

I would however ask you, on what basis is humanity declared by God to be justified? Is it by faith alone or by faith combined with works?

Paul makes it clear in Galatians and Romans that humanity is “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law” in Galatians 2:16, and the rest of the Bible concurs.

What we are talking about, "sola fide" is the Latin phrase that represents a key area of doctrine that was an issue of contention between the Reformers and the Roman Catholic Church, and today they still serve to summarize key doctrines essential to the Gospel and to Christian life and practice or traditions that replace the Word of God.

Sola scriptura—Scripture alone,
sola fide—faith alone,
sola gratia—grace alone,
sola Christus—Christ alone, and
sola Deo gloria—for the glory of God alone.

Each one is vitally important, and they are all closely tied together. Deviation from one will lead to error in another essential doctrine, and the result will almost always be a false gospel which is powerless to save.

The teaching that we are declared righteous by God which is justification, on the basis of our faith alone and not by works is a key doctrine of the Bible and a line that divides all the cults from biblical Christianity.

While religions and cults teach people what works they must do to be saved, the Bible teaches that we are not saved by works, but by God’s grace through His gift of faith all through the Bible and specifically in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Biblical Christianity is NOT a religion but instead is a "Person". It is distinct from religions in that it is centered on what God has accomplished through Christ’s finished work, while all other religions are based on human achievement. If we abandon the doctrine of justification by faith, we abandon the only way of salvation.

 

[Rodger]

I said that unfruitful branches are removed by the Father.

That principle is found in John 15:1-2

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

So this involves the Father removing unfruitful branches that are in Him.

Now comes the appeal to remain in Him.

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


It’s one thing to become justified.

It’s another to remain justified.

It’s all about the obedience of faith, something you deny.

My dear brother...I agree that we should keep the commandments of God.......the problem is that we can not do it. We can and we should try but we simply can not do it.

In the Scripture you used in John 15:2, while the analogy of the vine and branches is deep and important, it is like any other analogy in that it should not be taken out of context.

When Jesus refers to a "branch in me," in this instance, the context does not imply those who are "saved." Rather, focus is entirely on the analogy of a vine and branches. Some branches appear to be connected to the main body, but are not—those branches are dead and will never produce fruit.

The vinedresser removes those branches, to allow room and resources for the living branches to accomplish their purpose. This relates to upcoming comments where Jesus refers to those who "abide" in Him in John 15:6.

In both the vine, and in our relationship to God, merely being "around" or "attached" to the concept of Christ is not enough. It is possible for a person to claim the name of Christ, and to associate with believers, and yet not have a life-giving connection to the "true vine" which is Jesus. Like a branch "in the vine" which produces no fruit, these are people who have attached themselves to the church, but are not connected to the Source of life. The One with ultimate knowledge and authority—God as the "vinedresser"—will eventually remove those false branches and discard them.

The apparent problem is the same with all of the other passages in Scripture that warn Christians about falling away. If a true Christian cannot lose salvation, why warn about falling away? The best explanation is that these warnings are directed toward professing Christians who appear, at least outwardly, to be connected to the Vine. They are branches in the vicinity of the Vine, but there is a disconnect.

Would you agree that Judas Iscariot is a good example of a false professor???

 

[Rodger]

How about remaining in Christ?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


What happens if one of His sheep wanders away and becomes lost?

Are they still justified?

Were they saved in the 1st place?

How would you know?

How would you confirm it?

How many think that Judas was born again?

 

[Rodger]

Because the discussion has been about the error of thinking James' justification by faith and works means a person is made righteous by their faith and their works. And that you have to do good works for that reason.


If your disobedience is the result of unbelief then...

1) If you are of Arminian persuasion, then, yes, it means you lose your justification.

2) If you are of Calvinist persuasion, then, no, you don't lose your justification. You never had it to begin with.

Take your pick. Doesn't matter. Either way the person caught up in sin because of unbelief, can not have the benefit of a justification that only the believing have access to. Whether he was ever really a believer or not is irrelevant to the outcome.

If your disobedience is not the result of unbelief, but rather ignorance, or sloth, or foolishness, or just plain stupidity (meh!), the Ministry and Sacrifice of Christ you believe in that is always interceding in heaven on the altar in heaven for you holds you fast in the justification that Ministry and Sacrifice secures for you.

It was asked of you.........
"If we do not obey God while on our walk to being ever more sanctified....
will we not also lose our justification?"

I am forever perplexed at those who argue such a position my brother.

Now.....did keeping the Law in the Old Test. save anyone?.....NO!

Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that those who are in Christ know that it is grace that saves. Obedience to the law of God as told to Moses in Exodus cannot bring salvation to any person, for salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

"Now the real question should be, do I still obey the Ten Commandments if I'm already under grace?"

Friends, the answer is a big and resounding "yes."

Those that ask this question or demand that we can lose our salvation if we do not obey the Law are telling us that they do not read and study and know what the Bible actually says.

You see, and I hope you know this, The Old Testament tells us that when someone sins or breaks a commandment, that person should bring a sacrificial offering to the Lord for their sins so that they may be "covered" and that is the literal Word of God in Leviticus 17:11.

So then, the covering, however, doesn't mean that the sins are taken away which is what we read in Hebrews 10:4. Our sins remain, and although they are covered by the blood of the sacrifice, they are still there, and the sinful man is able and likely to commit sins of the same kind again.

God's commandments to Moses were given so that we would know the standards for righteousness that God expects from us. Through these commandments we know that we are unable to attain them because We are a sinful people, with a sin nature and we are unable to overcome sin in our own strength. By these commandments we realize our desperate need for someone to free us from sin, a Saviour.

Christ shed His blood on that cross as a sacrifice for our sin. But unlike the blood of animals that can only "cover," Christ's shed blood forever takes away our sin from us as told to us in John 1:29; 1 John 1:7 and many others. His blood sacrifice cleansed us – that even if our sin were as red as crimson and scarlet, we are washed clean as white as snow and wool according to Isaiah 1:18.

 

[JLB]

I agree......"Faith alone" is a Biblical teaching.

Sola fide, which means "faith alone," is important because it is one of the distinguishing characteristics

The distinguishing characteristics of faith alone is its an unbiblical doctrine.

Here is what scripture says -

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Faith alone is dead.

Just as a body without a spirit is dead.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

 

[JLB]

My dear brother...I agree that we should keep the commandments of God.......the problem is that we can not do it.

Speak for yourself.

I have the Holy Spirit. It’s not hard to resist the temptation to murder people, or steal, of covet, or bow down to idols, or to dishonor my parents…

When you are filled with the Spirit, loving God and loving my neighbor just comes naturally.

Are you baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Again, here is what the scripture says…

• His commandments are not burdensome.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3

 

[Rodger]

Speak for yourself.

I have the Holy Spirit. It’s not hard to resist the temptation to murder people, or steal, of covet, or bow down to idols, or to dishonor my parents…

When you are filled with the Spirit, loving God and loving my neighbor just comes naturally.

Are you baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Again, here is what the scripture says…

• His commandments are not burdensome.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3

I am speaking for myself.

God has spoken for you in Romans 3:23............
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

1 John 1:8-10..........
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Should we try to keep the commandments of God? YES.
Problem is that NO ONE has or can except the Lord Jesus.

 

[Rodger]

The distinguishing characteristics of faith alone is its an unbiblical doctrine.

Here is what scripture says -

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Faith alone is dead.

Just as a body without a spirit is dead.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

Bless your heart. You have completely misunderstood James 2:17 and IMHO you are completly in error.

Romans 1:17
“It is through faith that a righteous person has life”, and “without faith it is impossible to please God” in Heb. 11:6.

The gospel is not complicated. We aren’t required to perform religious rituals, say a series of incantations, or understand a cryptic set of facts, be batptized or do some kind of good deed.

God made salvation so easy even you can be saved.
Actually, the Bible tells us that we must cease from our works, lay down our pride, and accept the grace of God by faith without any additions to what God has done in Christ.

To be saved, we must believe that Jesus, the Savior, died for our sins and rose again to life eternal.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The distinguishing characteristics of faith alone is its an unbiblical doctrine.

No, "faith alone" is an entirely Biblical doctrine:

24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone. James 2:24

It just doesn't mean what you say it means.

Here is what scripture says -

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Faith alone is dead.

Just as a body without a spirit is dead.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

In the story of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, whose faith was dead? And who went home justified, the man with the dead faith, or the man who didn't have dead faith?

9To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed,a ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I acquire.’

13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” Luke 18:9-14

 

[JLB]

No, "faith alone" is an entirely Biblical doctrine:

24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone. James 2:24

It just doesn't mean what you say it means.

It means what it means.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Faith all by itself is dead.
Faith alone is dead.

Self explanatory.


The illustration from the life of Abraham is clear.

The work James refers to is obedience; the obedience of faith.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

James isn’t referring to works of righteousness or good deeds or the works of the law, since the law didn’t come for another 430 years.

Abraham obeyed the voice of the Lord, by which he received faith.

When we hear the Gospel message we can’t just ignore it but we must actually obey it and repent.

Turn to the Lord and confess Him as LORD.

Demonstrate by action, that we believe in Him by obeying the command to repent.

If we don’t obey the Gospel, then we are as those who receive seed by the wayside, because we didn’t believe.

If we truly believe He is Lord then we will confess Him as Lord.

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; John 12:42

Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:32-33


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh, good grief! It isn't about eternal security!

The branch that does not remain in the vine (because of unbelief - 1 John 2:24) is the branch that is unfruitful (because it didn't abide) and is then cut out of the vine. You developed an erroneous understanding of the passage that believing branches are cut out of the vine because you missed the fact that what happens first before the branch is deemed to be unfruitful and, therefore, cut out of the vine is the branch did not remain in the vine. It represents the person who departs from Jesus. Whether or not they were ever really a believer has no bearing on the fact that it is unbelieving/un-abiding/unfruitful branches that are cut out of the vine, not believing/fruitful/abiding branches.

WHERE does it state that the branch first did not abide?

I'm afraid that YOU are conflating two different topics and this will be my last post regarding this.
Jesus said the vinedresser WILL CUT OFF BRANCHES that DO ARE NOT FRUITFUL.

No talk of unbelief.
The statement by Jesus is that we branches IN CHRIST, and thus believers,
are to PRODUCE FRUIT or we will be cut off.

Jesus teaching is that we are to produce good fruit/produce good works.
If we do not we are USELESS.
James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Faith must lead to action or it's a useless faith.
Useless branches will be cut off and removed from the vine..

You're conflating this with persons that WALK AWAY FROM GOD.
Nothing can separate us from God....except ourselves,,,we can walk away using our free will.
Here Jesus tells us to stay with Him...abide in Him.

One has nothing to do with the other.
One is addressing UNFRUITFUL believers.
The other is addressing APOSTATE persons that abandon God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because the discussion has been about the error of thinking James' justification by faith and works means a person is made righteous by their faith and their works. And that you have to do good works for that reason.

Of course we have to do good works for that reason!
Do unbelievers have to do good works?
NO.
Believers do.

If your disobedience is the result of unbelief then...

This is NOT under discussion.
In John 15 Jesus is addressing believers...those IN THE VINE...IN JESUS.

1) If you are of Arminian persuasion, then, yes, it means you lose your justification.

2) If you are of Calvinist persuasion, then, no, you don't lose your justification. You never had it to begin with.

Who cares about arminiuns,,,I don't even know what Arminius believed and I don't care.
As to Calvinists...most of the ones I know believe that our behavior is important and hold to doing good works.
And
I like to stick to the bible.

Take your pick. Doesn't matter. Either way the person caught up in sin because of unbelief, can not have the benefit of a justification that only the believing have access to. Whether he was ever really a believer or not is irrelevant to the outcome.

If your disobedience is not the result of unbelief, but rather ignorance, or sloth, or foolishness, or just plain stupidity (meh!), the Ministry and Sacrifice of Christ you believe in that is always interceding in heaven on the altar in heaven for you holds you fast in the justification that Ministry and Sacrifice secures for you.

You keep discussing sin.

So do you believe that if we do not do good works then we are disobeying God and sinning?