Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Jethro Bodine]

If you believe John 15:1-2 is discussing unbelievers,,,it is up to YOU to explain the verses.
You have not because they are speaking of BELIEVERS.
UNBELIEVERS ARE NOT A PART OF THE VINE.

Unless you can show how John 15:1-2 SPECIFICALLY is speaking of unbelievers BEING IN THE VINE,
and BEING PART OF JESUS,,,,this conversation must stop.

Explain to us how the person who does not remain in Jesus is somehow a saved person:

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the keeper of the vineyard. 2He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me.

5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Pay attention to what he's saying. You've missed it completely that the first thing that happens is the branch does not remain in the vine. Then, not remaining in the vine results in unfruitfulness. Then it is cut off from the vine. You have completely skipped over the fact that it is the branch that does not remain in the tree, then it is cut off. Everything happens because the branch doesn't believe in Jesus. Whether they ever really did or not is irrelevant. The point that you are ignoring in the analogy is the branch does not remain in the vine, then it is cut off.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

YES..........I accept the Bible fact that =
"THE AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE.
2 Timothy 3:16-17: ....
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

But...but...but the Catholic church says you are not "complete, equipped for every good work" without their additional, authoritative revelation.

They say we are incomplete without them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

and it's NOT that our works are filthy rags, but a pleasant odor to God.
It's NOT that our works are unrighteous,,,

A righteous work is a righteous work. But if you are unclean your righteous works count for nothing. Your righteous works are stained by your unrighteous works. Think what the analogy of the menstruel cloth means. The beauty and adornment and gracefulness of even the most beautiful of women is made unclean by the uncleanness of her flow. Her flow makes her unfit to approach God in fellowship and worship, despite all her other stunning righteous attributes that, surely, would earn the attention of God!

That's how it is with the 'beauty' of our righteousness. The stain of uncleanness that we have by nature makes our righteous works of no account. Only the sacrifice and the service of the righteous is acceptable. And the only way to be righteous is to have righteousness given to you as a gift through the forgiveness of your sin, apart from consideration of your works. It's impossible to be righteous in God's sight any other way. You're not good enough. No one is. We always have the 'flow' of our natural selves to ruin our goodness.

but that they are necessary for admittance into the Kingdom of God here on earth.

Only as evidence of the righteousness you have received by faith, apart from works. They have no value toward earning you admittance into the kingdom. The stain of your unrighteousness ruins that effort.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus cuts you out of himself even though you haven't sinned!!!!!?????

Come on, JLB, come to your senses! Please get out of whatever church is teaching you this crap.

Wow J.
Obeying God is crap!!

Actually, JLB is making the same statement I made to you....
What does sinning have to do with the convo of John 15??

You're changing the topic.

The branches are cut off die to not being fruitful.

Let's say it this way....
It's not enough to live a life that does not PRACTICE sin,,,,we must fo good.

The parable of the empty house.

 

[Rodger]

But...but...but the Catholic church says you are not "complete, equipped for every good work" without their additional, authoritative revelation.

They say we are incomplete without them.

That is correct.

CCC#86
"Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."
So, the Catholic Church Teaches that she is the Servant of the Word of God.

Ok, so what’s the problem?

Notice that the Catholic Church Teaches that She is the Servant of the Word of God.
She uses the terminology “Word of God” rather than, the “Bible”.

Is there a difference?

Yes. People who believe in Sola Scriptura say that the Bible is the only Word of God.
But the Catholic Church Teaches that the Word of God is contained in Sacred Tradition and in the Bible.

Which is it?

Where do we get the Word of God?

Those who believe in Sola Scriptura say that we only get the Word of God from the Bible.

 

[Rodger]

Wow J.
Obeying God is crap!!

Actually, JLB is making the same statement I made to you....
What does sinning have to do with the convo of John 15??

You're changing the topic.

The branches are cut off die to not being fruitful.

Let's say it this way....
It's not enough to live a life that does not PRACTICE sin,,,,we must fo good.

The parable of the empty house.

You said..........
"It's not enough to live a life that does not PRACTICE sin,,,,we must fo good." (Do).

Grace, may I say to you that the Christian life has this baffling paradox at its heart: we are simultaneously sinners and saints.

As saints, we’ve experienced the power of new birth as seen in 2 Corinthians 5:17 and tasted “the first fruits of the Spirit” in Romans 8:23. Yet despite these miraculous realities, we keep on sinning, to our great dismay and shame which is exactly what Paul laments in Romans 7, And if we think we don’t sin, John tells us we’re deceiving ourselves in 1 John 1:8. As much as we wish it were not so, saints still sin.

What you have just said places YOU in the "performance mentality of works" that leads you to take a “just do it” approach to fighting sin.

YOU just said, "we must fo good." (Do)."
In other words you are saying If I just try harder, just work smarter, just remember better, do good, then I’ll overcome my addiction to pornography, my ever-present anxiety, or my gluttonous eating and drinking habits along with my lying.

By your own words you have said that such an approach puts all the confidence in our will.

Do you realize that man’s “free choice is sufficient for evil, but hardly for good”????

If we depend on our unassisted will to be good, to stay saved, we will end up addicted to our evil desires.

 

[GodsGrace]

A righteous work is a righteous work. But if you are unclean your righteous works count for nothing. Your righteous works are stained by your unrighteous works. Think what the analogy of the menstruel cloth means. The beauty and adornment and gracefulness of even the most beautiful of women is made unclean by the uncleanness of her flow. Her flow makes her unfit to approach God in fellowship and worship, despite all her other stunning righteous attributes that, surely, would earn the attention of God!

That's how it is with the 'beauty' of our righteousness. The stain of uncleanness that we have by nature makes our righteous works of no account. Only the sacrifice and the service of the righteous is acceptable. And the only way to be righteous is to have righteousness given to you as a gift through the forgiveness of your sin, apart from consideration of your works. It's impossible to be righteous in God's sight any other way. You're not good enough. No one is. We always have the 'flow' of our natural selves to ruin our goodness.


Only as evidence of the righteousness you have received by faith, apart from works. They have no value toward earning you admittance into the kingdom. The stain of your unrighteousness ruins that effort.

NO.
Not as evidence.
God doesn't need evidence.
Matthew 23:5 NASB
5 "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.


Jesus said NOT to do anything as to be noticed by men:
Matthew 6:5
5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.


Jesus said to do good in secret so as not to be noticed by men:
Matthew 6:2-4
2 "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
3 "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.


Jesus warned against doing good works/deeds so as to be noticed by men:
Matthew 6:1
1 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is correct.

CCC#86
"Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."
So, the Catholic Church Teaches that she is the Servant of the Word of God.

Ok, so what’s the problem?

Notice that the Catholic Church Teaches that She is the Servant of the Word of God.
She uses the terminology “Word of God” rather than, the “Bible”.

Is there a difference?

Yes. People who believe in Sola Scriptura say that the Bible is the only Word of God.
But the Catholic Church Teaches that the Word of God is contained in Sacred Tradition and in the Bible.

Which is it?

Where do we get the Word of God?

Those who believe in Sola Scriptura say that we only get the Word of God from the Bible.

Rodger....
just for your information:
The CCC is not the word of God.

The word of God is the bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is impossible to not be a Catholic and yet "Teach from the CCC"!
You posted..................

• CCC 2068, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”

So WHICH of the above is not biblical in your opinion?
1.
2.
3. Is faith required for salvation?
4. Is bapism required for salvation?
5. Really,,,,you believe we do not have to keep the 10 commandments?

I would rather, instead of discussing the CCC, speak the Bible with you. By your own words you are a Catholic believer,

Show me where I stated that I'm a Catholic believer and THEN I'll continue this conversation.
I dislike dishonesty and you're showing it right now and I will NOT post with a dishonest person.

and that is fine with me. What I do question however is the "HOSTILITY" you project to those who do not believe as you do! Is that Catholic teaching that you learned?????

Do you have the ability to speak with Protestants on a level field with love and humility?????

1. YES.
Paul says in Rom. 1:16-17 that it is “the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, ‘The one who is righteous will live by faith’”.

2. NO.
If you had read the Bible you would then know that The key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.

3. YES.
Sola Fide—is the bedrock of the Gospel. Without FAITH, the sinners understanding of salvation crumbles. This BIBLE truth—justification by faith alone—was central to the Protestant Reformation and remains essential for the Christian life today.

4. NO! I believe exactly what the Bible says and that is I strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion after they come to Christ by faith and accept Him as Saviour.
Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31, Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.

5. Already answered in #2.
How do you think that you can keep "ALL" of the Law????

There are 613 commandments, not just ten.
Do you scan the Scriptures saying to yourself.... “Hmmmmm…let’s see…I’ll take this one, ‘Do not commit adultery,’ that looks good. I can do that. Oh, and ‘Do not steal,’ I like that one.”
Do not murder, OK.
What about....“‘Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy," did you put that put that on your plate? If not, you are fooling yourself, because the Sabbath is from Friday to Saturday, not Sunday morning.”

“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (James 2:10)

That’s why Jesus came to give us a new agreement with God and to make the old agreement obsolete because NO ONE can keep ALL of the Law ALL of the time.
The writer to the Hebrews–to the Jews–let them know about this Changing of the Guard in 8:13.....

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete .

The Old Covenant is obsolete, just like the pay-phone is obsolete. It’s not needed because it’s useless and something better is here! Further, as non-Jews, the only Covenant we ever had is the New one!

 

[GodsGrace]

Explain to us how the person who does not remain in Jesus is somehow a saved person:

A person that does not remain in Jesus is NOT a saved person since only Jesus saves us.

But if you say, as YOU stated: WHO DOES NOT REMAIN IN JESUS...
it means they were saved AT ONE TIME in the past.
They were in a place where they no longer are in.

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the keeper of the vineyard. 2He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful.

It's in English Jethro.
WHAT does the Father cut off?
It plainly states it.
BRANCHES THAT DO NOT BEAR FRUIT.
No talk of salvation, osas, or sinning.

Notice that the Father expects even MORE good works from the branches that are fruitful.

3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me.

IF we abide in Christ - the Vine that gives life - we will be enabled to do good works, the good works the Father is looking for in verses 1 and 2.

We cannot bear fruit on our own..we need the help of the Holy Spirit.

5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

The braches that do not remain in Jesus will be thrown away.
Jesus explained why in verses 1 and 2....they do not produce fruit.
WHILE THEY ARE PART OF THE VINE...God expects them to rely on the Holy Spirit and produce good fruit.

IF THEY THEMSELVES DO NOT WANT TO REMAIN IN JESUS...then they will dry up and this would take us to the topic of OSAS, which I don't want to get into.

The point of verses 1 and 2 is that WHILE ATTACHED TO THE VINE...
we are required to do good works.

If we LEAVE the vine...we will surely become lost.
2 different topics.

Pay attention to what he's saying. You've missed it completely that the first thing that happens is the branch does not remain in the vine. Then, not remaining in the vine results in unfruitfulness. Then it is cut off from the vine.

Correct. Verses 4, 5 and 6.

You have completely skipped over the fact that it is the branch that does not remain in the tree,

In verses 1 and 2 it's GOD FATHER that cuts off the branch.
It is NOT the branch leaving the vine of its own decision.

then it is cut off. Everything happens because the branch doesn't believe in Jesus. Whether they ever really did or not is irrelevant.

HOW is it irrelevant J?
While someone is attached to the vine...they are saved.
The saved are required to do good works or they will be cut off.

The point that you are ignoring in the analogy is the branch does not remain in the vine, then it is cut off.

Correct...for verses 4, 5 and 6, when it is WE that decide to leave the vine.
In verses 1 and 2 the FATHER cuts the branch off and Jesus tells us why:
unfruitfulness.

This is repeated in the parable of the fig tree.
Jesus wants to cut the tree down because it does not bear fruit.

Jesus warns of hypocrisy in
Matthew 23:3
3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
James 1:22
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
What if we do NOT walk in them?

Colossians 3:23-24
23 Whatever * you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than * for men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
Again, we work for God...not for men as some on this thread seem to think.

 

[Rodger]

Show me where I stated that I'm a Catholic believer and THEN I'll continue this conversation.
I dislike dishonesty and you're showing it right now and I will NOT post with a dishonest person.

You did not say your were a Catholic believer.
You DID say that you teach the CCC to which I said, "I do not know anyone who teaches the CCC and is not a Catholic.

 

[Rodger]

Rodger....
just for your information:
The CCC is not the word of God.

The word of God is the bible.

I have know that now for 58 years. I am very glad to see that you know it as well.

Now, as a teacher of the CCC, you do realize that the Catholic church places more authority in "Traditions and the CCC" than the Bible....right?

While there is no one verse that states that the Bible alone is our authority, the Bible over and over again gives the examples and the admonitions of turning to the written Word as one’s source of authority. When it comes to examining the origin of a prophet’s or religious leader’s teaching, it is Scripture that is appealed to as the standard.

Also, it is clearly a fact and it is evident that Scripture argues for its own authority, Scripture nowhere argues for “authoritative tradition equal with Scripture.” In fact, the New Testament has more to say against traditions than it does in favor of tradition.

Again, as a teacher of the CCC I am confident that you know that the Roman Catholic Church argues that Scripture was given to men by the Church and therefore the Church has equal or greater authority to it. However, even among the Roman Catholic Church’s writings (from the First Vatican Council), you will find the acknowledgment that the Church councils that determined which books were to be considered the Word of God did nothing but recognize what the Holy Spirit had already made evident.

That is, the Church did not “give” Scriptures to men, but simply “recognized” what God, through the Holy Spirit, had already given.

As the Presbyterian scholar A. A. Hodge once stated, "when a peasant recognizes a prince and is able to call him by name, it does not give him the right to rule over the kingdom. In like fashion, a church council recognizing which books were God-breathed and possessed the traits of a God-inspired book, does not give the church council equal authority with those books."

 

[Rodger]

Show me where I stated that I'm a Catholic believer and THEN I'll continue this conversation.
I dislike dishonesty and you're showing it right now and I will NOT post with a dishonest person.

Your piousness is leaking through.

So is your ability to tell the truth. I did NOT say anywhere that you were a Catholic.

In post #773 you said........
"As to the CCC,,,you're in luck. I'm not Catholic but actually taught from the CCC....
so here we go:".

In post #779 I replied......
"It is impossible to not be a Catholic and yet "Teach from the CCC"!

I am going to make this real easy for you my friend. I am placing you on "Ignore" as your attitude and penchant for arguing is not acceptable for me to continue any conversations with you.

Have a blessed life!

 

[GodsGrace]

You did not say your were a Catholic believer.
You DID say that you teach the CCC to which I said, "I do not know anyone who teaches the CCC and is not a Catholic.

Correction:
I am NOT a teacher of the CCC.
I stated that I've taught from the CCC...
big difference.

And, yes, you DID state that I said I was Catholic....
which would be a lie on my part.

But I'm going to let this go since I have no desire to look back due to lack of time here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your piousness is leaking through.

So is your ability to tell the truth. I did NOT say anywhere that you were a Catholic.

In post #773 you said........
"As to the CCC,,,you're in luck. I'm not Catholic but actually taught from the CCC....
so here we go:".

In post #779 I replied......
"It is impossible to not be a Catholic and yet "Teach from the CCC"!

I am going to make this real easy for you my friend. I am placing you on "Ignore" as your attitude and penchant for arguing is not acceptable for me to continue any conversations with you.

Have a blessed life!

I respect your wish and am sure you'll find this Forum to be a very good one,,,
even though we got off to a bad start.
I do wish God's blessings on you too.

 

[Free]

So is your ability to tell the truth. I did NOT say anywhere that you were a Catholic.

In post #773 you said........
"As to the CCC,,,you're in luck. I'm not Catholic but actually taught from the CCC....
so here we go:".

In post #779 I replied......
"It is impossible to not be a Catholic and yet "Teach from the CCC"!

I am going to make this real easy for you my friend. I am placing you on "Ignore" as your attitude and penchant for arguing is not acceptable for me to continue any conversations with you.

Have a blessed life!

You quoted your own post #779. Also from post #779:

By your own words you are a Catholic believer, and that is fine with me.

Do you have the ability to speak with Protestants on a level field with love and humility?????

Is that not you saying what you said you didn't say? Doesn't the question imply that she is other than Protestant, that is, Catholic?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

NO.
Not as evidence.
God doesn't need evidence.
Matthew 23:5 NASB
5 "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.


Jesus said NOT to do anything as to be noticed by men:
Matthew 6:5
5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.


Jesus said to do good in secret so as not to be noticed by men:
Matthew 6:2-4
2 "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
3 "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.


Jesus warned against doing good works/deeds so as to be noticed by men:
Matthew 6:1
1 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

This has nothing to do with works being the evidence by which God judges you to be a saved person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A person that does not remain in Jesus is NOT a saved person since only Jesus saves us.

Then you agree that the branch that does not remain in Jesus and is cut off is an unbeliever. Thank you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we LEAVE the vine...we will surely become lost.

And so, according to the analogy, the branch that is cut off because it did not remain in Jesus, is an unbelieving branch. Argument settled. Thank you.

 

[Rodger]

You quoted your own post #779. Also from post #779:

Is that not you saying what you said you didn't say? Doesn't the question imply that she is other than Protestant, that is, Catholic?

In post #779 I replied......
"It is impossible to not be a Catholic and yet "Teach from the CCC"!

Where in that comment are the words...."You are a Catholic"?