Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Jethro Bodine]

Obeying God is crap!!

In the effort to be justified (made righteous), yes, your obedience is crap (but that's not actually the subject in JLB's post that I said is crap-go back and reread it). It would have to be perfect obedience for it to be of sufficient quality for God to declare you righteous on the basis of your obedience.

That's why you can only be declared righteous by a righteousness that is credited to your account, apart from and without consideration of your less than stellar, so-called righteousness. As soon as you try to add your (so-called) righteousness to the attempt to be justified you ruin any chance to be declared righteous that way. But to the person who does not work to be justified, his FAITH in Christ for the forgiveness of sin is credited to him as righteousness:

5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4:5

 

[Free]

In post #779 I replied......
"It is impossible to not be a Catholic and yet "Teach from the CCC"!

Where in that comment are the words...."You are a Catholic"?

It's not in that comment, but it's in the same post, as I pointed out. I even bolded it for you--"By your own words you are a Catholic believer." Is that not saying she is a Catholic?

 

[GodsGrace]

This has nothing to do with works being the evidence by which God judges you to be a saved person.

J, I read on here, at times, that we do good works as evidence to MEN that we are saved.
God doesn't need evidence since God knows everything.

My scripture shows that we are to do good works for God and not for men...
evidence or otherwise.

God will judge us on what we're done here on earth as saved persons.

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Seems to me that Jesus is concerned with our doing good deeds.
The fact that He's speaking of believers is self understood.
Unbelievers are not required to do good works/deeds....
they are already lost and cannot get more lost.

Matthew 7:24-26
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Jesus expects us to ACT on His words...
His words are everything that He taught.
The beatitudes,
the feeding of the hungry,
following the 10 commandments...etc.

LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR, AS YOURSELF.

Love covers all the commandments.

 

[GodsGrace]

And so, according to the analogy, the branch that is cut off because it did not remain in Jesus, is an unbelieving branch. Argument settled. Thank you.

The argument is not settled.
You're bringing up 2 totally different topics.
One is eternal security.
The other is the necessity of doing good works if we want to define ourselves as Christian.

I've explained why in the other post and will not repeat.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's not in that comment, but it's in the same post, as I pointed out. I even bolded it for you--"By your own words you are a Catholic believer." Is that not saying she is a Catholic?

Hi Free...just saw this.
Yes, that was my understanding too regarding what the other member posted.
If someone wants to be Catholic, it's OK. Every denomination has its problems.
It's just that I am not Catholic and I did not want the other member to address me as such since
I don't believe many doctrines that they teach.

I think the other member and I should just drop this and get on with being members of the same Forum.
I look forward to having conversations with him - if he so wishes.

 

[GodsGrace]

In the effort to be justified (made righteous), yes, your obedience is crap (but that's not actually the subject in JLB's post that I said is crap-go back and reread it). It would have to be perfect obedience for it to be of sufficient quality for God to declare you righteous on the basis of your obedience.

Will not go back and reread,,,,
HOW is any amount of work....
or any quality of work....
sufficient for justification?
I don't believe we've yet come to accept that I'm speaking of SANCTIFICATION and YOU are speaking of justification.

Could we get on the same page?

Why do you associate works with justification by works?
If we do not obey God while on our walk to being ever more sanctified....
will we not also lose our justification?

How many verses does it take to understand that God demands that we obey Him?
Did Jesus spend over 3 years just telling everyone to believe in Him?
Did He not give instructions?

That's why you can only be declared righteous by a righteousness that is credited to your account, apart from and without consideration of your less than stellar, so-called righteousness. As soon as you try to add your (so-called) righteousness to the attempt to be justified you ruin any chance to be declared righteous that way. But to the person who does not work to be justified, his FAITH in Christ for the forgiveness of sin is credited to him as righteousness:

5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4:5

Your statements, and those of all who believe that somehow we are not required to obey God because we believe in Jesus for our salvation, cause the following to happen:
1. Some believe our works are like filthy rags.
2. Our Christian values are undermined.
3. Our belief in faith rules, and not our behavior, which was stressed by Jesus, Paul and the others.
4. Jesus warned of hypocrisy. Saying what we do not do. Matthew 23:3
5. We cease to acknowledge the sovereignty and authority of God.
6. Some believe doing works is a sin. Some believe we need not ask forgiveness for sin.

We make a mockery of our faith..THE faith.
Justification and Sanctification
Grace and Works
Faith

It is all intertwined and cannot be separated...
from the moment we declare our belief in God and through His grace,
He gifts to us faith and salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

J, I read on here, at times, that we do good works as evidence to MEN that we are saved.
God doesn't need evidence since God knows everything.

He doesn't need the evidence of your righteous faith. He knew your heart before it even beat it's first beat. He uses the lawful and unlawful works we have done, as defined by the law, to silence every dispute of men and angels:

"...so that every mouth may be silenced..." Romans 3:19

My scripture shows that we are to do good works for God and not for men...
evidence or otherwise.

14You are the light of the world. A city on a hillb cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. Instead, they set it on a stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. Matthew 5:14-16

24The sins of some men are obvious, going ahead of them to judgment; but the sins of others do not surface until later. 25In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even the ones that are inconspicuous cannot remain hidden. 1 Timothy 5:24-25

Now, try to dispute that. What you are not to do is do your works of righteousness to be seen by men in order for you to receive praise. That is what you are not to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The argument is not settled.
You're bringing up 2 totally different topics.
One is eternal security.
The other is the necessity of doing good works if we want to define ourselves as Christian.

I've explained why in the other post and will not repeat.

Oh, good grief! It isn't about eternal security!

The branch that does not remain in the vine (because of unbelief - 1 John 2:24) is the branch that is unfruitful (because it didn't abide) and is then cut out of the vine. You developed an erroneous understanding of the passage that believing branches are cut out of the vine because you missed the fact that what happens first before the branch is deemed to be unfruitful and, therefore, cut out of the vine is the branch did not remain in the vine. It represents the person who departs from Jesus. Whether or not they were ever really a believer has no bearing on the fact that it is unbelieving/un-abiding/unfruitful branches that are cut out of the vine, not believing/fruitful/abiding branches.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh, good grief! It isn't about eternal security!

The branch that does not remain in the vine (because of unbelief - 1 John 2:24) is the branch that is unfruitful (because it didn't abide) and is then cut out of the vine. You developed an erroneous understanding of the passage that believing branches are cut out of the vine because you missed the fact that what happens first before the branch is deemed to be unfruitful and, therefore, cut out of the vine is the branch did not remain in the vine. It represents the person who departs from Jesus. Whether or not they were ever really a believer has no bearing on the fact that it is unbelieving/un-abiding/unfruitful branches that are cut out of the vine, not believing/fruitful/abiding branches.

Oh good grief!
Is that like when I say:
Oh for goodness sake!

Yeah. I think I've totally frustrated you.
Sorry J.
I read both and get your point on post 807.
But will have to wait till the morning...midnight here,
was just closing down.

Have a good evening...
this is all good...makes us think.

 

[Rodger]

It's not in that comment, but it's in the same post, as I pointed out. I even bolded it for you--"By your own words you are a Catholic believer." Is that not saying she is a Catholic?

"It's not in that comment,.........".= Agreed.

No, it is not the same thing IMO.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

HOW is any amount of work....
or any quality of work....
sufficient for justification?

It's not. That's why justification can only be secured through faith, apart from works. Your works will never make you qualified to enter into the kingdom of God. Never. That is an impossible way for a person to enter into the kingdom of God. Just a single stain of unrighteousness ruins the effort completely. Partial righteousness can not get a person into the kingdom of God.

I don't believe we've yet come to accept that I'm speaking of SANCTIFICATION and YOU are speaking of justification.

The inheritance is not based on your sanctification. If it was you'd still be found to have fallen woefully short of the righteousness required to enter into and dwell in the kingdom of God.

The ONLY righteousness by which you are eligible to enter into the kingdom is the declaration of righteousness God gifts to a person through faith in Christ, apart from their works.

 

[JLB]

Jesus cuts you out of himself even though you haven't sinned!!!!!?????

The Father removes the unfruitful branches.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
John 15:1-2

 

[JLB]

Brother, in my simple country boy way of thinking, YES......"Faith by Itself" means the same as "Faith Alone".

Thanks. I agree.

 

[JLB]

You do understand I hope and I am sure that you do, this kind of debate only happens when a Catholic believer is involved. They have been taught their whole life that salvation is from faith and doing good works. By insisting on "Faith Alone or Faith by itself" is a slap in their face of understanding.

I’m not Catholic.

I’m aware that the “works” many Catholics refer to are mainly man made rituals.

 

[JLB]

Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,”

Absence?

There is no absence of the phrase “faith alone” in scripture.

Remember “in your country boy way of thinking” faith all by itself, means faith alone.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

So the phrase “faith alone” is unbiblical.

 

[JLB]

Jesus cuts you out of himself even though you haven't sinned!!!!!?????

Come on, JLB, come to your senses! Please get out of whatever church is teaching you this crap.

First of all I don’t get my teachings from my Church.

I can read the scriptures and believe what they so plainly say.

The Spirit of truth teaches us.


Concerning the matter of sin, and remaining in Christ, we do have clear instructions about that as well.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• If anyone does not abide in Me,

The way we are instructed to remain in Christ is equally clear.

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

 

[JLB]

The ONLY righteousness by which you are eligible to enter into the kingdom is the declaration of righteousness God gifts to a person through faith in Christ, apart from their works.

How about remaining in Christ?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


What happens if one of His sheep wanders away and becomes lost?

Are they still justified?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why do you associate works with justification by works?

Because the discussion has been about the error of thinking James' justification by faith and works means a person is made righteous by their faith and their works. And that you have to do good works for that reason.

If we do not obey God while on our walk to being ever more sanctified....
will we not also lose our justification?

If your disobedience is the result of unbelief then...

1) If you are of Arminian persuasion, then, yes, it means you lose your justification.

2) If you are of Calvinist persuasion, then, no, you don't lose your justification. You never had it to begin with.

Take your pick. Doesn't matter. Either way the person caught up in sin because of unbelief, can not have the benefit of a justification that only the believing have access to. Whether he was ever really a believer or not is irrelevant to the outcome.

If your disobedience is not the result of unbelief, but rather ignorance, or sloth, or foolishness, or just plain stupidity (meh!), the Ministry and Sacrifice of Christ you believe in that is always interceding in heaven on the altar in heaven for you holds you fast in the justification that Ministry and Sacrifice secures for you.

 

[Rodger]

Absence?

There is no absence of the phrase “faith alone” in scripture.

Remember “in your country boy way of thinking” faith all by itself, means faith alone.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

So the phrase “faith alone” is unbiblical.

I appreciate your efforts but I do not agree with your thesis. By your thinking, there is NO Trinity as the specific word is not in the Bible so then it is an unbiblical term.

Actually, James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone.......if anyone has the desire to understand them.

Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone.

Doesn't John 3:16 declare that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.”

Doesn't Acts 16:31 proclaim, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”

It seems to me that you are working way to hard to try and prove something that you do not want to admit exists.

 

[Rodger]

I’m not Catholic.

I’m aware that the “works” many Catholics refer to are mainly man made rituals.

I never said that you were.

What I actually said was.......
"You do understand I hope and I am sure that you do, this kind of debate only happens when a Catholic believer is involved. "