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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone
- Thread starter RBDERRICK
- Start date
- Apr 2, 2003
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There was nothing ambiguous. If a word's use isn't given, it doesn't mean the definitions of the word are not known, as though the word has no meaning; just to be clear. The words in the Bible already have definitions and most have multiple definitions. How a word is used determines which meaning is being used in that particular instance.
Any of you could look at a Bible dictionary, lexicon, or commentary and see what the definitions are for the Greek word dikaioō, which is most often translated as "justified."
Then you actually don't agree with me, as the many passages I have given show. Once again, this points out the dangers of not studying thoroughly. There are three different words that speak of various aspects of salvation in the NT--justification (past: a one time event at the point of conversion), sanctification (present: both an initial setting aside and a continual process of being made holy), and glorification (future: made completely holy in heaven).
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. (ESV)
Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (ESV)
This shows both justification and glorification, and arguably all three.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)
I don't see how it can get any clearer than this.
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I'm not conflating anything.
I'm quoting scripture word for word.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
Justified = Righteous; right with God
The action required for justification is obedience.
To be saved we must obey the Gospel; which is to repent; turn to God in submission to Him as our LORD.
They way we obey the Gospel command repent, is to confess Jesus Christ as LORD.
This is what Abraham did, by which he was justified... He turned from his old life to follow the LORD, when God called him out of the land of the Chaldeans.
This is the Old Testament verse that Paul is referring to in Galatians 3:8 where Abraham heard the call of the Gospel and repented; turned to the Lord and followed Him.
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8
Now the LORD had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3
In this case with Abraham, he obeyed the call to turn away from his country and family to follow the LORD.
This is the pattern of justification by faith; the obedience of faith
Isn't that what I just said ?
Context determines the definition of "justified".
I am glad I use different references than you.
I would hate to have to wait for heaven to be completely holy.
Thank God for that.
(And thank God it is the reply to Paul's Rom 7:23 plaint of a "law of sin" in his members ! )
What are you trying to make clear ?
A definition of "justified" ?
Or one of the definitions of "justified" ?
Or one of the applications of the word "justified" ?
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Quoting Scripture doesn't mean one understands what they're quoting. Atheists do it all the time.
No. This is the problem. You're using one definition of justification when you should be using another. Again, if you have James saying this, then he outright contradicts Paul, who appeals to the same OT verse about Abraham and clearly states Abraham was not justified by works. It's all there in Romans 4, which I previously quoted at length.
Faith is only the means of justification, but it isn't based on anything we can do. And, you're looking at the wrong verse in regards to Abraham:
Gen 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. (ESV)
The promise to Abraham was that he would not only have an heir, but numerous offspring. That is what he believed which was "counted to him as righteousness." Noting to do with obedience.
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I don't know; "Without a precise citing of the word's use, its definition is unknown," is ambiguous. It could mean that the meaning is determined by context or it could mean that there is no definition prior to use of the word (some actually believe that). I figured you were meaning the former, hence why I said "just to be clear."
Well, you do.
Well, when you trace back this particular point, you would see that I'm providing a reference that you asked for, to show that being justified happens at the moment of salvation, with "which happens at the moment of salvation" being the part you quoted. You had also disagreed that salvation happens now. The passages I provided show that we are truly saved (justified) now, that justification happens at the moment of salvation.
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I understand exactly what I'm writing and discussing.
There is a law; a principle by which faith operates, or functions.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? (law of Moses) Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:27
Without the corresponding act of obedience, faith is dead, and incomplete, like a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete.
I will continue to explain and expound, but honestly you have been so steeped in reformed theology, and received an indoctrination into your mind, where you are now basically denying what the scriptures so plainly say.
But that's ok, we all are where we are at, in our understanding.
Let me ask you a question -
- In this verse, what was it that Abraham did, in which he was justified?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
Answer: Abraham obeyed the word that God spoke to him (by which he received faith) to offer his son Issaac on the altar.
- Again, what did Noah do to receive the righteousness of faith -
Answer: Noah obeyed the word God spoke to him by which he received faith, to build the Ark.
JLB
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Does James define justification?
I mean the definition of justification that the Holy Spirit means when He inspired James to write these words
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
No one is justified without obedience to the word of faith; the word from God by which they received faith.
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Notice here in verses 21-24 that the Greek word # G1344 is used for justified and G1343 (vs. 23) is rendered righteousness.
James had in mind righteousness when he wrote these verses. The context is righteousness; being right with God.
I think we can all agree.
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You are applying "works" from Paul who spoke concerning the works of the law, righteous works, as well as works that earn.
Paul constantly had to teach the Jews among the Church at Rome that the works of the law does not justify.
Paul constantly had to teach the Gentiles at the church at Galatia, who were carried away with their Jewish brothers, not to become circumcised to be justified.
Once you read the context of what Paul wrote, and the language he uses, then you will see that Paul and James teach the same principle; the obedience of faith.
JLB
LOL
As I just said...
I know of no words that have no definition.
I can only wonder why you think the off-spring of God are unholy.
I would use the word "converted", instead of the word "saved".
Being justified by the blood of Christ occurs at the blood's application to the repentant.
That happens when we are water baptized into Christ and into His death.
Peter refers to that in 1 Peter 4:1..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"
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That remains to be seen.
Exactly. Not works, faith.
Please knock it off with ignorant comments like this. You know little to nothing about what I do or don't believe. Or, would you prefer that I also say you have been so steeped in Arminian "theology, and received an indoctrination into your mind, where you are now basically denying what the scriptures so plainly say"? Do you see how that gets us nowhere?
Besides, this has absolutely nothing to do with Reformed theology, as this goes much further back. This is what is stated in 1 Clement 32, written around A.D. 97:
Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him.64 For from him65 have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. (Comp. Rom_4:5) From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.” (Gen_22:17, Gen_28:4) All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Again, you're conflating two different meanings of justification, so your understanding of what James says is in direct contradiction to what Paul says in numerous places. The contradiction should be a red flag to you that indicates something in what you believe isn't quite right.
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
...
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (ESV)
Again, you need to look to the appropriate passage to understand verse 23, which I gave already:
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”
Gen 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. (ESV)
What did Abraham believe which was counted to him as righteousness? The promise of numerous offspring. He believed what God said and it "was counted to him as righteousness." It wasn't the willingness to sacrifice Isaac on the altar that was counted to him as righteousness, as that what around 20 years later. But, what does James say about that incident? That "Abraham was justified by works." Why does James bring that up? To support his initial argument: "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (2:17, ESV).
So, what is James saying? He is saying that Abraham believed God's promise, putting his faith in God, and it "was counted to him as righteousness." Then, some 20 years later, God tells him to sacrifice his son, which he is willing to do. It is about that that James asks, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works?". What does his obedience, that willingness to sacrifice his son, show? That the faith he had in God's promise was genuine.
James is saying that Abraham's work proved that his faith was genuine; it vindicated his faith. If he wasn't willing to sacrifice Isaac, it would have shown that he didn't really have faith. But it proved his faith and his faith then produced the work. That is what James means by "justification"--prove or vindicate, which is another meaning.
So, James is not at all saying anything against justification--in the sense of salvation, to be declared righteous--by grace alone, through faith alone. He is saying something different--that works prove one has true saving faith, which is to say, that they have already been declared righteous.
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Notice that Paul, on the whole, says the same thing.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
…
Rom 4:23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (ESV)
First, Paul says that “if Abraham was justified by works,” which obviously implies that he wasn’t justified by works, he has nothing to “boast about . . . before God.” Why? Because “to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.” Second, Paul quotes Gen 15:6 which states, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” That is, Abraham’s righteousness was counted to him on the basis of faith, not on a work or works. Third, Paul states that it is the one who believes, “who does not work,” that “his faith is counted as righteousness.” Which goes right back to Abraham, showing that he didn’t do any work; it was by faith alone.
Fourth, notice the use of “justifies” (v.5) and “justification” (v. 25)—in relation to Jesus being “delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification”—which clearly indicate Paul is talking about being declared righteous. He ties that in with the reason as to why “it was counted to him” was written for our sake (v. 24). Paul is saying that it is on the basis of faith alone in God that we are declared righteous, just as Abraham was. Notice also that Christ’s work on the cross and his resurrection are the basis for our justification; it is his righteousness imputed to us. He did the work, so it is not by any works we do. And that goes back to verses 2-5.
Throughout this passage, Paul’s point is that Abraham was not justified (declared righteous) by any works, but by believing in God, which is how we are also justified. If there is even one work, then it is not a gift, but what is owed us.
Not only is that the point Paul makes in Rom 4, that is the point he makes in Eph 2, where he also mentions the purpose of good works:
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)
Paul says that by grace we are saved (justified) through faith, none of which is our own doing. It can’t be more clear. Even then, we were saved “when were dead in our trespasses.” Notice in verse 8 that Paul again brings in the idea of “a gift.” Why is it a gift? Because it is not our own doing. We’ve already seen in Romans 4 that if it was our own doing, it would be what was owed to us. But, it’s a gift and a gift is free to the one who receives it.
The only time Paul speaks of doing works is in verse 10, where he clearly states that doing good works are the reason we have been saved. That supports what James says, that good works are evidence that a person has been saved.
You have Paul and James in total contradiction because you haven't done your due diligence in studying the different meanings of justification. Paul is talking about being declared righteous, having our sins pardoned, but James is talking about vindication and proof of the faith that Abraham already had by which he was made righteous.
It seems that you are too quick to proof-text, to find support for what you already believe, so that you end up missing significant detail which actually shows something different than what you believe.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
…
Rom 4:23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (ESV)
First, Paul says that “if Abraham was justified by works,” which obviously implies that he wasn’t justified by works, he has nothing to “boast about . . . before God.” Why? Because “to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.” Second, Paul quotes Gen 15:6 which states, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” That is, Abraham’s righteousness was counted to him on the basis of faith, not on a work or works. Third, Paul states that it is the one who believes, “who does not work,” that “his faith is counted as righteousness.” Which goes right back to Abraham, showing that he didn’t do any work; it was by faith alone.
Fourth, notice the use of “justifies” (v.5) and “justification” (v. 25)—in relation to Jesus being “delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification”—which clearly indicate Paul is talking about being declared righteous. He ties that in with the reason as to why “it was counted to him” was written for our sake (v. 24). Paul is saying that it is on the basis of faith alone in God that we are declared righteous, just as Abraham was. Notice also that Christ’s work on the cross and his resurrection are the basis for our justification; it is his righteousness imputed to us. He did the work, so it is not by any works we do. And that goes back to verses 2-5.
Throughout this passage, Paul’s point is that Abraham was not justified (declared righteous) by any works, but by believing in God, which is how we are also justified. If there is even one work, then it is not a gift, but what is owed us.
Not only is that the point Paul makes in Rom 4, that is the point he makes in Eph 2, where he also mentions the purpose of good works:
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)
Paul says that by grace we are saved (justified) through faith, none of which is our own doing. It can’t be more clear. Even then, we were saved “when were dead in our trespasses.” Notice in verse 8 that Paul again brings in the idea of “a gift.” Why is it a gift? Because it is not our own doing. We’ve already seen in Romans 4 that if it was our own doing, it would be what was owed to us. But, it’s a gift and a gift is free to the one who receives it.
The only time Paul speaks of doing works is in verse 10, where he clearly states that doing good works are the reason we have been saved. That supports what James says, that good works are evidence that a person has been saved.
You have Paul and James in total contradiction because you haven't done your due diligence in studying the different meanings of justification. Paul is talking about being declared righteous, having our sins pardoned, but James is talking about vindication and proof of the faith that Abraham already had by which he was made righteous.
It seems that you are too quick to proof-text, to find support for what you already believe, so that you end up missing significant detail which actually shows something different than what you believe.
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For the record:
dikaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance:
dikaioō; from G1342; to show to be righteous, declare righteous: — acknowledged...justice (1), acquitted (1), freed (3), justified (24), justifier (1), justifies (2), justify (4), vindicated (3).
dikaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance:
dikaioō; from G1342; to show to be righteous, declare righteous: — acknowledged...justice (1), acquitted (1), freed (3), justified (24), justifier (1), justifies (2), justify (4), vindicated (3).
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Yet, as I stated, your sentence was ambiguous, and gave the reasons why. It could mean either of two things.
Then you haven't heard of social constructionism, in which, essentially, words have no meaning until they are used in a specific context. Also known as "meaning-making."
I don't. I have never said that.
Being justified, that is, being declared righteous, happens when Christ's righteousness is imputed to us at the time when we put our faith in Christ. To be "converted" is to be saved, lest you make God out to be a liar:
Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (ESV)
Notice first that it is a "good work" that God began (justification), and second that he "will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ," which would be eventual glorification. In between "began" and bringing "it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ," is sanctification, that work of the Spirit that causes us to grow in holiness through our obedience to God.
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The law of faith; the principle of faith.
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This is a blatantly false statement.
I gave you the meaning of justified as well as justification.