Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Jethro Bodine]

I do believe that the problem here might be the term
FAITH ALONE

Yes, stop using that term. We know about and agree with James' 'not by faith alone' argument. He's not talking about how to be imputed the righteousness of God. Stop confusing it with Paul's 'righteousness apart from works' argument in which he is talking about how one receives the imputation of God's righteousness.

Righteousness is imputed to a person when they believe, apart from and without the merit of righteous works. You don't work to receive the imputation of God's righteousness. You do not have to work to get that. Nor do you have to work to keep it. Lending to the poor man in James' discourse about faith and works does not solicit the imputation of God's righteousness. God's forgiveness received by faith does that. Not works.

What do you think faith alone means?

Faith alone is James' argument. The profession of faith that is alone, having no works, can not save because dead faith is the signature of the fake believer who has no faith by which to have received the imputation of God's righteousness in salvation. He is an unbeliever. He is lost. And not because he failed to faithfully do the works to become a saved person, but because he failed to have faith in God's forgiveness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good.
And HOW do we inherit what was promised?
We are to show the diligence till the end.

You inherit what was promised through "faith and patience (the perseverance of faith)." He did not say through works.

 

[Free]

I'm addressing you here Free....not on what you wrote in "pages back".
I've written plenty on this subject and will not direct you to different forums or different threads on here.

You're referring to my comment that FAITH ALONE is only referred to one time in the NT and in the negative.
It might be Catholic, but it's the truth. If you can find another verse stating that FAITH ALONE is a correct doctrine,,,I would be happy to see it.

But you won't find it because it's not in the NT.

But, my point is that just as the concept of the Trinity is in the NT and the word "Trinity" not, we don't see "faith alone" in the NT, but the concept is there throughout. Having said that, that is with a proper understanding of "faith alone."

Martin Luther...who was the father of the term "faith alone" (we all know the story) meant that we are not required to follow the Law of Moses. We are SAVED by faith alone with no works of any kind...be they of The Law or of good works....

John Calvin stated that FAITH ALONE IS NOT DEVOID OF CHARITY/LOVE.
So even John Calvin believed that it's faith plus something -AFTER initial salvation of course - that saves us.
In this case...faith + love.

We also note:
faith + baptism 2 Peter 3:21
faith + obedience John 14:15
faith + serving the poor Matthew 25
faith + repentance & baptism Acts 2:38

I stress that this is AFTER justification which is by faith alone.

But to carry the idea of faith alone throughout one's walk with Jesus is not what Jesus taught.

It isn't what Luther taught either. I've actually never heard anyone teach that. Luther taught that justification was by "faith alone" and he believed that works must follow out of obedience (HERE, page 4). It is worth noting that sometimes "faith alone" or "grace alone" are simply used as a short form for "justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone," rather than repeating the whole thing. It is also worth noting that the NT does the same:

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Here, Paul clearly states that we are justified by faith, implying "faith alone." Faith is the means by which we receive God's gift. But is that all he means? No. He also means that it is by grace, through faith:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

It will ultimately bring to what the poster stated a couple of pages back:
our works are filthy rags to God.

Any works we do apart from the power of the Holy Spirit and not done for the glory of God are unacceptable to God.

Of course this is out of context...but it's what some believe due to this idea of
faith ALONE.

I have never seen or heard anyone say that we only need faith and never need to do good works.

Well, again I have to ask:
What does BELEIVE mean?

Is it an intellectual belief that the demons also have?
Or is it an experiential belief that only believers have?

It is to put one's faith and trust in Christ and accept all that he is and has done, not mere intellectual assent.

Faith alone nourishes the idea that it is our belief that counts and not our behavior.
Jesus warned of this...telling the Jews not to follow the Pharisees who did not act as they taught.
Matthew 23:3 NASB
3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Action is what Jesus is after...the betterment of the Kingdom of God on earth.
Faith alone has no action.

Of course, but "faith alone" applies only to justification, as far as Luther, Calvin, and Reformed theology is officially concerned. If some people have wrong ideas about faith alone that leads them to believing they do not need to do good works, that's on them. But, those good works do not save; they are evidence of having been saved, which is James's entire point.

 

[Free]

Interesting about the CC.
This is for Free too since he also brought this up.

I went to 2 different Protestant denominational churches...one for 10 years.
They both believed in good works.

Did some checking just now.
Seems most Protestant denominations believe in good works.

Half of Protestants Agree With Catholics That Good Deeds and Faith Are Needed for Salvation: Pew

About half of Protestants in the U S now agree with the historically Catholic belief that both faith and good deeds are needed for salvation, rather than faith alone, a Pew Research Center survey

www.christianpost.com

U.S. Protestants Are Not Defined by Reformation-Era Controversies 500 Years Later

Five hundred years after the start of the Protestant Reformation, a new Pew Research Center survey finds that U.S. Protestants are not united about – and in some cases, are not even aware of – some of the controversies that were central to the historical schism between Protestantism and Catholicism.

www.pewresearch.org

Yes, but the problem lies in believing that good words are necessary for salvation. Catholicism, as far as I can tell, defines justification differently, believing that it is also an ongoing process, effectively (and erroneously) combining justification and sanctification, which ends up adding works as necessary for salvation, going against the biblical witness.

I also found this interesting:

Key Differences Among the 7 Main Christian Denominations

What are the similarities and differences among the main Christian denominations? Learn more about the core beliefs of seven types of Christianity.

www.learnreligions.com

That is interesting. It's unfortunate that they appeal in parts to the ultra-liberal PCUSA, instead of something like the PCA.

 

[GodsGrace]

God seeks us. We don't seek Him.

God always reaches out to His creation first....us.
Because God so loved us ALL that He would want all to be saved...
but not all respond with a yes.

As to seeking...Yes, we do and we can seek God.
The bible tells us so:

Matthew 6:33​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

​

Deuteronomy 4:29​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Psalm 9:10​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

James 4:8​

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

​

Matthew 7:7-8​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

​

​

Isaiah 55:6-7​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Lamentations 3:25​

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

​

There are many more verses, but the above should suffice to show that we are able to seek God and should seek God.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

There are no inherint contradictions about faith alone. God says it's dead to Him, and so it is. People can argue with God about what is alive or dead to Him, based on what they believe it is to them, but it's still true without contradiction, that faith without works, being alone is dead.

The inner contradictions only come with trying to teach faith alone as being alive to justify soul having it.

1. The common teaching of justification by faith alone, is that justification is only by faith alone, and never by nor with works.

That's important to understand, because that forbids any works added to one's faith alone, lest their faith is not alone, being with works: For faith alone apart from works to ever justify a person, then any faith with works must never justify the soul.

It's not just that we can be justified by our faith alone, but it's at war against ever being justified by faith with works: Faith Alone must always Stand Alone against ever having works added to it. (Sort of like a shining idol, I mean light, that must always be naked)

Lest faith with works ever justify the soul, then no one must ever add works to their faith, at all. That's equally important, because it forbids any works at all from being added to their faith, and thus mar their faith alone with works.

Whther it's the workd of 'flowering', I mean, 'flowing' fruit, works to justify a soul, no works at all must ever being added to the pristine beauty of one's own justifying Faith ALone. (Like a Goddess of light, she must never be clothed by tawdry works of any kind, whether good or bad...)

Teaching justification is only by faith alone, is teaching against ever having faith with works, lest faith not be alone, having works.

The Bible of course teaches the opposite, but we're showing inherint flaws in teaching, which the Bible has none.

2. The teachers of self-justification, I mean, justification by their very own faith alone, are all not only confessing sinners, but everyone of them confess they surely shall sin again and again, more or less. By their own faith alone, it's never 'if' they sin (as it is for the saints in Christ Jesus), but only 'when' they sin some more and more, or with some less and less.

Well, since by their faith they are sure to be sinning, more or less, then their faith never really is alone without any works at all? Therefore, they are titling their doctrine with the beauty of holy Faith Alone for show, but in truth they are really preaching being jsutified by their own faith, with sins and trespasses.

Afterall, any time they speak of their own works, it's always about how sure they are to sin yesterday, today, and tomorrow, if it comes. (Some even compete to be the worst of sinners, like their most favorite leader they call 'Paul'. And so we know their faith is never ever alone at all...)

3. And finally, some preach against their justificationi by actually attacking the Goddess Faith Alone, and demand that works do flower and flow, more the merrier. They do allow varying timeline to begin producing those buds, but in the end they must depart from Faith Alone, and have faith with works.

And so once again, having faith with works, they are no more justified by their jilted Faith Alone of yore. (Which seems fair. I mean if She's the only justifying faith for man, then why should she have to continue to justify anyone scorning her as some old used up hag?)

I am late,

But here are facts.

for we have been saved by Grace

that is a fact. How was it given to us?

Through faith

how was it not given?

not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Paul; is also clear in romans 4

romans 4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Paul continues

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace;
and then
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
showing that works and grace can not mix, they are like oil and water. if your trying to get to God with both. you will fail

and to be clear. Paul ends with this


Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

That not only do Grace and works not mix. But works and Gods mercy do not mix either. Because it is not by any righteous deeds we have done (good works) but by his mercy, he saved (a completed action) us

 

[GodsGrace]

Now, you know why it's so many and so few. (Matthew 7:13-14) It's few who place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (John 3:18; Acts 16:31; Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Most trust in works for salvation (at least in part). Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, or else, we are 100% lost. It does not get any more narrow than that. (John 10:9; 14:6)

No. You believe in monergism.
Most Christians believe in Synergism.
You don't just discard it off-hand after all the verses I've posted
showing that we are to do good works.

And. happily, scripture explains itself.
Jesus said the road is narrow and wide...
He explained WHY it is wide in the very chapter you quoted:

Matthew 7:23
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
We are lawless if we do not obey God.

And then:
Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
We must not only hear the words of Jesus,
but ACT on them.

James 1:22
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

If we don't DO we are deluding ourselves.
Sounds like doing good works for whatever reason you understand in James 2:24 is moot.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, stop using that term. We know about and agree with James' 'not by faith alone' argument. He's not talking about how to be imputed the righteousness of God. Stop confusing it with Paul's 'righteousness apart from works' argument in which he is talking about how one receives the imputation of God's righteousness.

Righteousness is imputed to a person when they believe, apart from and without the merit of righteous works. You don't work to receive the imputation of God's righteousness. You do not have to work to get that. Nor do you have to work to keep it. Lending to the poor man in James' discourse about faith and works does not solicit the imputation of God's righteousness. God's forgiveness received by faith does that. Not works.


Faith alone is James' argument. The profession of faith that is alone, having no works, can not save because dead faith is the signature of the fake believer who has no faith by which to have received the imputation of God's righteousness in salvation. He is an unbeliever. He is lost. And not because he failed to faithfully do the works to become a saved person, but because he failed to have faith in God's forgiveness.

No JB
Looks like I've been using the term correctly but you guys don't seem to understand it.

FAITH ALONE comes out of the reformation and is a term used by the reformed/calvinist theology.

It means, literally, that we are saved by FAITH ALONE.....
with NOTHING ELSE ADDED.
EVER.

If you and mailmandan believe we are to do good works at some point in time AFTER we're born again....
then you also do not believe in faith alone.

You could look this up for yourself. I'm not here to give anyone lessons on theology.

Funny thing is that even John Calvin ( a FAITH ALONE believer, of course) stated that this does not mean that FAITH ALONE means that faith is devoid of charity/love. So even Calvin, a great reformer, believed in FAITH PLUS SOMETHING.

Of course, I've been asking a question which seems difficult to reply to since the other member has never replied to it. A very simple question which should have a simple reply:
ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION?

My reply is
YES.

Faith. Could we have faith in God and just decide that we will NOT do good works?
Is this obeying God?

There are those that will argue that if we say we do good works, we are taking glory away from God...
we are proudful and sinful. Yes, they go so far as to say that good works are a sin. They say that good works
are as filthy rags.

This is not what Jesus taught.
He taught that we ARE TO DO good works in order to further His Kingdom on earth.
He spoke about salvation 2 or 3 times....He spoke about the Kingdom many times.
Jesus came to atone for our sins,
and to bring the Kingdom of God on earth. (The beatitudes is an example, Matth 5 to 7).

 

[GodsGrace]

You inherit what was promised through "faith and patience (the perseverance of faith)." He did not say through works.

Who did not say through works?

Paul spoke about doing good works in all of his writings.
So did the other writers.
Jesus taught good works for over 3 years.
What else did Jesus preach in those 3 years?
"just believe in me and you'll be OK".
No. He preached what we ARE TO DO.

As I stated in a prior post here:
This theology that you believe will cause:
1. The undermining of Christian values.
2. Belief and not behavior will rule Christian ideals. Jesus taught behavior.
3. Jesus warned us not to be hypocritical. Matthew 23:3
4. It does not acknowledge the authority of God.
5. Some believe Jesus did everything and we are to DO NOTHING.

PAUL NASB
Romans 2:6-7
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Galatians 6:8-9
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever * a man sows, this he will also reap.
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
JESUS
Matthew 19:16-17
16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Luke 3:9
9 "Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No JB
Looks like I've been using the term correctly but you guys don't seem to understand it.

We understand James' 'not by faith that is alone' argument perfectly. It does not mean you cannot receive the imputation of God's righteousness unless you add works to your profession of faith. It's not a passage about the imputation of God's righteousness in justification. If it was it would align with Paul's teaching that righteousness comes by faith apart from works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

FAITH ALONE comes out of the reformation and is a term used by the reformed/calvinist theology.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But they are not addressing James' 'not by faith alone' argument when they refer to Paul's 'righteousness apart from works' argument. That's what you're not getting. You're using James' argument to destroy Paul's argument when James is not even talking about being imputed righteousness, as Paul is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It means, literally, that we are saved by FAITH ALONE.....
with NOTHING ELSE ADDED.
EVER.

In the argument, 'are saved' means you 'are justified', thus becoming a saved person, on the basis of faith, apart from works. This is not referring to the resurrection when you will be saved from the wrath of God. This is about becoming a saved person now through the imputation of God's righteousness.

It is not necessary to perform works to obtain the imputation of God's righteousness that makes you a saved person, now, that you already have received through faith in God's forgiveness the moment you first believed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you and @mailmandan believe we are to do good works at some point in time AFTER we're born again....
then you also do not believe in faith alone.

Is it really out of your scope of understanding that we believe we are to do good works after salvation for another reason other than receiving the imputation of God's righteousness?

 

[GodsGrace]

But, my point is that just as the concept of the Trinity is in the NT and the word "Trinity" not, we don't see "faith alone" in the NT, but the concept is there throughout. Having said that, that is with a proper understanding of "faith alone."

Right. The word Trinity is not in the bible but we all know the concept is there.
Ditto for the hypostatic union.
We DO have to admit that the words FAITH ALONE are in scripture, but in a negative connotation.
James 2:24 A MAN IS JUSTIFED BY WORKS AND NOT BY FAITH ALONE.

We see in the NT that Abraham was justified both by faith and works.
Romans 4:3 FAITH
James 2:21 WORKS

CS Lewis said that the two are like a pair of scissors: each blade is important...one will not work without the other.

Scripture also shows that something IS needed AFTER we become born again.
Faith plus baptism 2 Peter 3:21
Faith pus obedience John 14:15
Faith plus service Matthew 25:35...
Faith plus repentance & baptism Acts 2:38

I'd love to get into 2 parables in Matthew 25, but no time.

And I DO believe I have the correct understanding of FAITH ALONE.
SOLA FIDE.
It's from the reformation and was taught by M. Luther.
It means we need NOTHING ELSE but faith.
It's just not what Jesus taught.

It isn't what Luther taught either. I've actually never heard anyone teach that. Luther taught that justification was by "faith alone" and he believed that works must follow out of obedience (HERE, page 4). It is worth noting that sometimes "faith alone" or "grace alone" are simply used as a short form for "justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone," rather than repeating the whole thing. It is also worth noting that the NT does the same:

Right.
But I've made it very clear that I'm speaking of AFTER salvation.
IF we Christians are not willing to state that good works are necessary after salvation...it seems to me Christianity is becoming very watered down.
The young are looking for churches (denominations) that are strong and have high moral values.
This is why Calvinism and Catholicism is getting some growth right now.
What about the rest of us Protestants?
IF we followed Jesus,,,,all this would not need to be debated.
The young would find strong churches to attend.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Agreed.
We are justified by faith alone.
No amount of good works could save us without faith.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
WORKS WITHOUT FAITH ARE DEAD.

But then we also read:
Romans 2:6-7 GOD WILL RENDER TO EACH MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Romans 13:8....PAUL TELLS OF HOW WE SHOULD BEHAVE.

Good works cannot be separated from faith.
If we have faith,,,,we believe,,,if we believe...we obey Jesus, the one whom we believe.

Here, Paul clearly states that we are justified by faith, implying "faith alone." Faith is the means by which we receive God's gift. But is that all he means? No. He also means that it is by grace, through faith:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

Agreed again.
But verse 10 states that we are CREATED for good works.
God commands us to do good works.

Any works we do apart from the power of the Holy Spirit and not done for the glory of God are unacceptable to God.

I don't believe we can do good deeds without the Holy Spirit.
I mean, man can...but if not done by the Holy Spirit they are worthless to God, although man can benefit from them.

I have never seen or heard anyone say that we only need faith and never need to do good works.

Could you post something?
I'll also look into this some more.
Luther came out of the CC and his entire point was Ephesians 2:8-9
His belief on faith alone is pivotal to his teachings.

It is to put one's faith and trust in Christ and accept all that he is and has done, not mere intellectual assent.

Agreed again.
But if we have faith in Jesus we must also follow Him.
If we follow Him we must obey His commandments.
It doesn't seem to be a choice to me.

Of course, but "faith alone" applies only to justification, as far as Luther, Calvin, and Reformed theology is officially concerned. If some people have wrong ideas about faith alone that leads them to believing they do not need to do good works, that's on them. But, those good works do not save; they are evidence of having been saved, which is James's entire point.

OK.
If faith alone applies only to justification...which we all agree to fully...
what about sanctification?
Can we say that it is necessary to do good deeds/works in order to achieve sanctification or will that also
not be accepted??

IOW....are we IMPUTED justification AND sanctification?
Then those that say that good deeds are not necessary would be right...

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but the problem lies in believing that good words are necessary for salvation. Catholicism, as far as I can tell, defines justification differently, believing that it is also an ongoing process, effectively (and erroneously) combining justification and sanctification, which ends up adding works as necessary for salvation, going against the biblical witness.

I brought this up in the post just sent to you.
You're right that Catholics use different terms for Justf and Sancf.
Yes. They believe that justf is an on-going process.
Don't WE belief this also except we call it sancf?
I've had this discussion with Jethro too, but we can never come to a conclusion.

That is interesting. It's unfortunate that they appeal in parts to the ultra-liberal PCUSA, instead of something like the PCA.

I don't know the difference.


Jethro Bodine

 

[GodsGrace]

We understand James' 'not by faith that is alone' argument perfectly. It does not mean you cannot receive the imputation of God's righteousness unless you add works to your profession of faith. It's not a passage about the imputation of God's righteousness in justification. If it was it would align with Paul's teaching that righteousness comes by faith apart from works.

I have to disagree J.
James is plainly saying that it cannot be by faith alone.

Not sure what you mean above.
We are MADE RIGHT with God at the time of justification.
At this moment we are saved.

James is saying that this is not enough.
Be not hearers only of the word , but DOERS.

He's saying that we MUST also do good deeds.
Faith Alone will not work.

Jesus said we will be judged by our good works/deeds. John 5:28-29

WHY are we discussing whether or not we need to do good deeds?
This is all Jesus taught for all the time He preached and taught the Apostles.

Paul said that EVEN HE had to finish the race and fight the good fight or even HE would be disqualified.
1 Cor 9:27

Paul is teaching BEHAVIOR....it will ultimately be our behavior that saves us....not a one time profession in Jesus as Savior. He must also be Lord.

 

[GodsGrace]

In the argument, 'are saved' means you 'are justified', thus becoming a saved person, on the basis of faith, apart from works. This is not referring to the resurrection when you will be saved from the wrath of God. This is about becoming a saved person now through the imputation of God's righteousness.

It is not necessary to perform works to obtain the imputation of God's righteousness that makes you a saved person, now, that you already have received through faith in God's forgiveness the moment you first believed.

Yes. I agree that it means NOW.
But, no, in reformed theology FAITH ALONE is SOLA FIDE.
Just like SOLA SCRIPTURA, SOLA GRATIA, SOLUS CHRISTUS, SOLI DEO GLORIA.
it means ONLY....ALONE
FAITH ALONE.
All we need is faith.
I'm going to do some more on this tomorrow morning,,,
but I'm 99% sure that I'm right.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is it really out of your scope of understanding that we believe we are to do good works after salvation for another reason other than receiving the imputation of God's righteousness?

It is beyond my scope of understanding that we're debating this.
If someone comes up to me, a believer in Jesus, and asks me if good works are necessary...
I would just reply YES.
Because this is what God wants from us.

Does God want us NOT to do good works?
Then the reply is always YES.

It seems very simple to me and I do NOT understand why we make it difficult.

We could go round and round with words and what they mean.
We might be thinking the same and using different words...

Are we supposed to do good works or not?
AFTER we're saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is it really out of your scope of understanding that we believe we are to do good works after salvation for another reason other than receiving the imputation of God's righteousness?

PS
I've been discussing this with the other member for years now.
I give scripture, and he'll explain it any which way he can as long as it turns
out that it doesn't mean what it plainly states: that we must do good works.
I think this goes beyond understanding a verse or two in a different way...
it seems like good deeds/works are uninvited words (to say the least).

 

[onlysaved]

I am late,

But here are facts.

for we have been saved by Grace

that is a fact. How was it given to us?

Through faith

how was it not given?

not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Paul; is also clear in romans 4

romans 4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Paul continues

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace;
and then
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
showing that works and grace can not mix, they are like oil and water. if your trying to get to God with both. you will fail

and to be clear. Paul ends with this


Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

That not only do Grace and works not mix. But works and Gods mercy do not mix either. Because it is not by any righteous deeds we have done (good works) but by his mercy, he saved (a completed action) us

In the context of salvation yes.

God's grace inspires us to so works and those works are at the prompting of the Holy Spirit not of a man's decision to do good. Except of course those things we are directly commanded to do. Taking care of orphans and widows and the like.