Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[JLB]

.... and how can they, with no one to show them ?

That’s what I have tried to do in this Forum, show people what the scriptures actually say.

 

[JLB]

That is exactly my point..

Most people do not do what they should.

There’s a reason Jesus said…

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:14

 

[onlysaved]

There’s a reason Jesus said…

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:14

Yup.. and there will be many there who focused on doing works who will be rejected and many who didn't even really think they were doing works will be rewarded.

 

[onlysaved]

.... and how can they, with no one to show them ?

Two things.

1. People inherently know right from wrong and we choose to do what is wrong. It's called being a sinner.
Roman's 1

2. They have been shown.

Even non-believers constantly throw Jesus back in our faces to point out our hypocrisy. It's their favorite use of the bible.

People know how to behave they just choose to misbehave because they love their sin.

 

[JLB]

Yup.. and there will be many there who focused on doing works who will be rejected and many who didn't even really think they were doing works will be rewarded.

That may very well be, however when it comes to salvation related doctrine I tend to just use scripture, and what scripture plainly says.

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
Matthew 7:24-27

• whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them
• everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them

Jesus teaches us their are two kinds of Christians, people;

Those who obey Him, do His teachings, and those who don’t.


Those who don’t will not stand.

 

[JLB]

Have you flawlessly obeyed all of God's commandments 100% of the time? If not, have you successfully kept an inventory of every time you violated one of His commandments and confessed your sin without forgetting one?

Notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

Certain people seem to misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory of every sin) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin we are toast!" Who could actually write an exhaustive list of every sin they have ever committed or ever will commit? Sin is not only missing the mark by what we do but also what we fail to do. (James 4:17)

Believers "confess" (Greek - homologeó) speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast with saying that we have no sin or that we have not sinned. (1 John 1:8-10)

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Wouldn’t you agree that if we do sin, we can confess our sin and be forgiven?

 

[onlysaved]

That may very well be, however when it comes to salvation related doctrine I tend to just use scripture, and what scripture plainly says.

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
Matthew 7:24-27

• whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them
• everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them

Jesus teaches us their are two kinds of Christians, people;

Those who obey Him, do His teachings, and those who don’t.


Those who don’t will not stand.

What scripture clearly says.

"It is by grace you are saved and this not of yourselves it is the gift of God and not the result of works so that no man may boast "

You cannot get much plainer than that.

Paul speaks of this ad nauseum throughout his writings

Those who are saved by faith will do works... yes.. the works however have no role in salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
Do YOU do that?

Yes, I do. But not to make myself righteous enough for entry into the kingdom of God as you think good works are to be done.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes. I believe I will get into heaven based on what Jesus taught.
Jesus did HIS part...now we must do OUR part.

Jesus did not die so you can save yourself. He did all the work of salvation. Your part is to believe, and continue to believe in the forgiveness God has provided you through his death and resurrection.

You are righteous in God's sight because he has cleansed and forgiven and removed all the guilt of your sin. You are not righteous in God's sight because of your good works. The moment you don't do good you lose any chance to be regarded as righteous that way. The forgiveness of God is what makes you righteous.

And merit means something different.
All these terms will NOT get us into heaven...
but DOING THE WILL OF GOD.

Your works are not labor that God owes you wages for doing. But there is a reward for those who have faithfully done the will of God:

35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. - Hebrews 10:35-36

Your work is rewarded, like when you do the good deed of returning a lost wallet. The person you return it to doesn't owe you wages for your good deed. He rewards you for your good work. That's how it is with our good deeds. God does not owe us salvation for our work. He rewards our work. If you have the mindset that you are working for salvation as wages owed you for your work you have the mindset of the works justification gospel condemned in scripture. You make Christ of no value to you in justification:

4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. - Galatians 5:4

 

[mailmandan]

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Wouldn’t you agree that if we do sin, we can confess our sin and be forgiven?

I believe it in contrast with 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10. I don't believe in sin (lost again) confess (saved again) sin (lost again) confess (saved again) and round and round we go/inventory confession and if we forget a sin we are toast.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't believe in sin (lost again) confess (saved again) sin (lost again) confess (saved again) and round and round we go/inventory confession and if we forget a sin we are toast.

I don't either. Hebrews 6:4-6 makes it clear that God does not allow that kind of relationship with him.

 

[JLB]

It is by grace you are saved and this not of yourselves it is the gift of God and not the result of works so that no man may boast "

I agree. However most don’t understand how faith works.

Once a person is saved, born again, regenerated, they need to be taught about how to separate themselves from the world and the things of the world, and yes that means sinful people of the world even if they are friends and family.

Do we pray for them? Yes.

Do we associate with them? No

Do we invite them to go to church? Yes

Do we encourage them that God loves them and desires a relationship with them? Yes.

The born again Christian must learn to walk according to the Spirit, and develop godly habits in which he sows, invests time towards the things of the Spirit.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:16

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

 

[onlysaved]

There are no inherint contradictions about faith alone. God says it's dead to Him, and so it is. People can argue with God about what is alive or dead to Him, based on what they believe it is to them, but it's still true without contradiction, that faith without works, being alone is dead.

The inner contradictions only come with trying to teach faith alone as being alive to justify soul having it.

1. The common teaching of justification by faith alone, is that justification is only by faith alone, and never by nor with works.

That's important to understand, because that forbids any works added to one's faith alone, lest their faith is not alone, being with works: For faith alone apart from works to ever justify a person, then any faith with works must never justify the soul.

It's not just that we can be justified by our faith alone, but it's at war against ever being justified by faith with works: Faith Alone must always Stand Alone against ever having works added to it. (Sort of like a shining idol, I mean light, that must always be naked)

Lest faith with works ever justify the soul, then no one must ever add works to their faith, at all. That's equally important, because it forbids any works at all from being added to their faith, and thus mar their faith alone with works.

Whther it's the workd of 'flowering', I mean, 'flowing' fruit, works to justify a soul, no works at all must ever being added to the pristine beauty of one's own justifying Faith ALone. (Like a Goddess of light, she must never be clothed by tawdry works of any kind, whether good or bad...)

Teaching justification is only by faith alone, is teaching against ever having faith with works, lest faith not be alone, having works.

The Bible of course teaches the opposite, but we're showing inherint flaws in teaching, which the Bible has none.

2. The teachers of self-justification, I mean, justification by their very own faith alone, are all not only confessing sinners, but everyone of them confess they surely shall sin again and again, more or less. By their own faith alone, it's never 'if' they sin (as it is for the saints in Christ Jesus), but only 'when' they sin some more and more, or with some less and less.

Well, since by their faith they are sure to be sinning, more or less, then their faith never really is alone without any works at all? Therefore, they are titling their doctrine with the beauty of holy Faith Alone for show, but in truth they are really preaching being jsutified by their own faith, with sins and trespasses.

Afterall, any time they speak of their own works, it's always about how sure they are to sin yesterday, today, and tomorrow, if it comes. (Some even compete to be the worst of sinners, like their most favorite leader they call 'Paul'. And so we know their faith is never ever alone at all...)

3. And finally, some preach against their justificationi by actually attacking the Goddess Faith Alone, and demand that works do flower and flow, more the merrier. They do allow varying timeline to begin producing those buds, but in the end they must depart from Faith Alone, and have faith with works.

And so once again, having faith with works, they are no more justified by their jilted Faith Alone of yore. (Which seems fair. I mean if She's the only justifying faith for man, then why should she have to continue to justify anyone scorning her as some old used up hag?)

15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17 “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

I agree. However most don’t understand how faith works.

Once a person is saved, born again, regenerated, they need to be taught about how to separate themselves from the world and the things of the world, and yes that means sinful people of the world even if they are friends and family.

Do we pray for them? Yes.

Do we associate with them? No

Do we invite them to go to church? Yes

Do we encourage them that God loves them and desires a relationship with them? Yes.

The born again Christian must learn to walk according to the Spirit, and develop godly habits in which he sows, invests time towards the things of the Spirit.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:16

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

I completely disagree with disassociating with unbelievers that's the exact opposite of what Jesus did. Now if someone claims to be a believer but is unrepentant about a severe sin then Paul taught that " with such a person do not even eat"

We are absolutely supposed to be in the world but not of it. That said some people may have to dissociate with people connected to their old sin but that out of self preservation and avoiding sin themselves.

 

[GodsGrace]

It means to guard, observe, watch over and does not mean flawless, perfect obedience 100% of the time/sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over

Will reply to your posts tomorrow.
But the above is just too funny.

You state that "Keep the commandments" means to observe and watch.
So Jesus didn't mean that we should PRACTICE what He taught....
He just meant that we should OBSERVE the commandments He left us with...

And who said anything about flawless?
Strawman.

And who said anything about sinless perfection?
Strawman.

You should stop depending on Strong's and
begin obeying Jesus.
Tomorrow...

 

[mailmandan]

Will reply to your posts tomorrow.
But the above is just too funny.

You find the definition of "keep" Greek word "tereo" funny?

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over

You state that "Keep the commandments" means to observe and watch.

You shortened the definition. It means to keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over.

So Jesus didn't mean that we should PRACTICE what He taught....
He just meant that we should OBSERVE the commandments He left us with...

To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over involves PRACTICE.

And who said anything about flawless?
Strawman.

No man except Jesus was flawless. Glad you agree.

And who said anything about sinless perfection?
Strawman.

Certain folks do teach sinless perfection. Glad to hear you are not one of them.

You should stop depending on Strong's and
begin obeying Jesus.
Tomorrow...

Strong's is a legitimate Concordance that gives a correct definition of the Greek word for "keep." Who said I don't obey Jesus?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And who said anything about flawless?
Strawman.

If you are trying to be justified by your works, as you are doing, then you must perform them perfectly all the time. If you disagree with that, read this:

10All who rely on works of the law (for justification-see context) are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”c 11Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law (for no one keeps all of the law all of the time) because, “The righteous will live by faith.”d - Galatians 3:10-11

That’s why you cannot be justified by works. You don’t keep all of God’s commands all of the time for that be the basis upon which God can count you as righteous. No one does. A person can only be counted righteous by having the guilt of their unrighteousness cleansed away through forgiveness and renewal by the Holy Spirit:

5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birthaand renewal by the Holy Spirit.- Titus 3:5

 

[JLB]

I completely disagree with disassociating with unbelievers that's the exact opposite of what Jesus did.

Is it?

Jesus was led by the Spirit to minister salvation, healing and deliverance to the lost, so that they would become followers of Him.

I’m talking about fellowshipping (hanging out) with sinners doing what they do.

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
1 Corinthians 5:9-11

• But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, the fruitless branch is not saved.

A branch is connected to the trunk.
God is the trunk.
We are the branches.

Jesus taught that fruitless branches will be cut off.

8The one who practices sin is of the devil...

Has nothing to do with sin.
Has to do with obeying what Jesus taught.

9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God... - 1 John 3:8-10

OK Let's think of it as sin.
If you sin one time 1 John chapters 1 and 2 come into play and you're forgiven.
If you sin all the time then 1 John chapter 3:9 comes into play.
Are you still saved?

You don't get unsaved by not doing works. You show yourself to be unsaved by not doing works.

You get unsaved by not doing good works because you're DISOBEYING Jesus.

The only way a saved person can be fruitless and condemned by that fruitlessness is they would have to go back to unbelief, assuming that's even possible.

That's apostacy and I agree.

As I've repeated many times now...
to some persons our good works/deeds, which Jesus taught we should do and which we are created for (Eph 2:10)
are as filthy rags to God.

They are NOT.
God requires us to do good works in His Kingdom.
If we want to be members of His Kindgom, then good works/deeds are necessary.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you are trying to be justified by your works, as you are doing, then you must perform them perfectly all the time. If you disagree with that, read this:

10All who rely on works of the law (for justification-see context) are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”c 11Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law (for no one keeps all of the law all of the time) because, “The righteous will live by faith.”d - Galatians 3:10-11

That’s why you cannot be justified by works. You don’t keep all of God’s commands all of the time for that be the basis upon which God can count you as righteous. No one does. A person can only be counted righteous by having the guilt of their unrighteousness cleansed away through forgiveness and renewal by the Holy Spirit:

5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birthaand renewal by the Holy Spirit.- Titus 3:5

1. The above is speaking about the Works of the Law.
2. Only God is perfect.

If I know I can't be a perfect wife....
should I stop giving it my best?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I do. But not to make myself righteous enough for entry into the kingdom of God as you think good works are to be done.

Interesting.
Maybe YOU don't see the value in following what Jesus taught...
But HE does.