Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[JLB]

Luke 11:23 NASB
23 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.


If you do not teach what Jesus taught,,,
you are scattering.

So true.

Promoting Heresy is no different that idolatry or sorcery or murder to the Lord, maybe worse since it affects the eternal life of gullible new impressionable believers.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


I notice these types mocking and pointing the finger at Catholics for their issues, while at the same time promoting the Heresy of Calvinism.

Very Sad.

 

[mailmandan]

As I've stated many times now...
you don't seem to understand what the word BELIEVE means in the Koine Greek language that was spoken at the time.

To BELIEVE implies TO OBEY.

If you believe obeying the Father is not the will of the Father....
there's not much more I can say.

You keep adding BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS and GENUINE BELIEVERS and TRUE BELIEVERS to your posts.

I read nothing of this in scripture.

Jesus taught that we are to OBEY and produce FRUIT.

If this bothers you....you are working against what Jesus taught.

Luke 11:23 NASB
23 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.

If you do not teach what Jesus taught,,,
you are scattering.

To believe means to have faith, to trust. Obedience which follows is works. I'm not the one working against what Jesus taught. I'm not adding to what Jesus taught. I am simply identifying descriptive language in connection with believers and unbelievers. You just don't get it.

 

[JLB]

You have stated before: Faith must have the corresponding act or “work” of obedience in order for faith to be “activated”

Yes exactly.

That why the scripture says Abraham’s faith was made complete when he offered his son Isaac on the altar.

However Abraham’s faith was already activated “for salvation” when he obeyed the Gospel in Genesis 12.

Abraham’s faith in Genesis 22 concerning Isaac was about justification (for purpose); God showing that Abraham was the “right man” from which to build the holy nation of Israel, and also foreshadowed the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Two different things.

 

[JLB]

In James 2:21-22, we read - Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect or complete? Nothing is mentioned here about Abraham simply getting out of his country and his faith was made perfect or complete.

I didn’t say it was.

Abraham’s faith was made complete from Genesis 15 when he only believed. Now because he obeyed, his faith that he received from God in Genesis 15 was made complete through his action of obedience.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
James 2:21-23

 

[GodsGrace]

You have stated before: Faith must have the corresponding act or “work” of obedience in order for faith to be “activated” (alive) and therefore “complete” (perfect) and able to function.
In James 2:21-22, we read - Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect or complete? Nothing is mentioned here about Abraham simply getting out of his country and his faith was made perfect or complete.

It wasn't enough to simply obey God by getting out of his country. That is not simply believing the gospel. It was not until God brought Abraham outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6)

You have a strange belief system, if I may say so.
You debate whether or not good works are necessary....
putting into question your obedience to God since this is
what Jesus taught....

Above you state that Abraham was not even saved when He left his home
because this was not believing the gospel !!
Abraham....HEARING FROM GOD...
and
OBEYING GOD to leave his home....

is not salvation according to you....
is not the gospel.

THIS is the gospel:

That whosoever BELIEVES and OBEYS will be saved.

John 3:36 NASB
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


God makes it easy.
Man makes it difficult.

 

[JLB]

To believe means to have faith, to trust.

No it certainly doesn’t.

Believe is a verb, the action one takes in response to faith.

Believing without action is demonic believing; the kind of believing demons do.

Biblical believing carry’s the idea of obedience.

That’s why in some places we see believe the Gospel and in others we see obey the Gospel.


Here they are together in the context of believing and obeying, in relationship to faith.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

 

[GodsGrace]

To believe means to have faith, to trust. Obedience which follows is works. I'm not the one working against what Jesus taught. I'm not adding to what Jesus taught. I am simply identifying descriptive language in connection with believers and unbelievers. You just don't get it.

I "get it" mailmandan.

As I've stated on this thread...
I don't AGREE with your understanding of scripture.
You ADD to scripture or change what the plain message is.

If you HAVE FAITH and TRUST someone,,,,
you will do as they tell you.
A FRIEND can make suggestions which you could accept or deny.

GOD does not make suggestions....
God gives commands.

You stated above:
"Obedience which follows is works."

Are you really saying that if we obey God it is a work??

No further comment.

 

[JLB]

It wasn't enough to simply obey God by getting out of his country. That is not simply believing the gospel.

Yes that’s exactly what obeying the Gospel is about.

Turning away from your god and your old life and following the Lord.

 

[mailmandan]

You have a strange belief system, if I may say so.

My belief system does not revolve around works righteousness.

You debate whether or not good works are necessary....
putting into question your obedience to God since this is
what Jesus taught....

Good works are the fruit of salvation but not the root. I don't remove good works from the Christian life. I simply put them in their proper place. Subsequent to regeneration and salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Above you state that Abraham was not even saved when He left his home
because this was not believing the gospel !!
Abraham....HEARING FROM GOD...
and
OBEYING GOD to leave his home....

Leaving his home (in of itself) is not what was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. Abraham still needed to believe God in Genesis 15:6.

is not salvation according to you....
is not the gospel.

THIS is the gospel:

You teach a gospel of works righteousness.

That whosoever BELIEVES and OBEYS will be saved.

John 3:36 does not say believe AND obey. You are adding to scripture. If John wanted to make obedience/works the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes AND obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

John 3:36 NASB
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

God makes it easy.
Man makes it difficult.

The KJV renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son."

The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son

God did make it easy. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 15:7-9; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians2:8,9) and you make it hard.

 

[JLB]

I "get it" mailmandan.

As I've stated on this thread...
I don't AGREE with your understanding of scripture.
You ADD to scripture or change what the plain message is.

If you HAVE FAITH and TRUST someone,,,,
you will do as they tell you.
A FRIEND can make suggestions which you could accept or deny.

GOD does not make suggestions....
God gives commands.

You stated above:
"Obedience which follows is works."

Are you really saying that if we obey God it is a work??

No further comment.

To follow Jesus Christ means you obey Him.

To be led by the Spirit means you do what the Holy Spirit leds and guides you to do.

This is called going from faith to faith.


Some people just “bury” the portion of Life they have been given by the Lord and therefore reproduce nothing for Him.

They stubbornly close their ears and eyes to the Holy Spirit and cling to their self centered “soulish” life.

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:25-29


Grace teaches us…. Grace is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of grace…
The Spirit of truth the Spirit of holiness, the Spirit of Wisdom….

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.
Titus 2:11-12

The Holy Spirit is also referred to as the anointing.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


As you pointed out before, we can indeed resist the Holy Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think Jesus's point is that which Paul and James make--that good works, doing the will of the Father, is evidence of already having been saved.

The good works we do are evidence to who?

God does not require evidence,,,
He sees our heart.

Is the evidence for man?
I do good works for the Kingdom of God...
to make it be a better place...
to love my neighbor, which includes everyone, IF I can by helping out in any way I can.

Jesus said we are to be a light for the world...
and salt.

This requires taking action....
If someone knows we are Christian, AND, they see us doing something good....
it gives GLORY TO GOD..
I don't believe I need to prove to my neighbor that I'm doing good works.

In fact, Jesus said to pray in our closet...
to give secretly...
so as to not make a show of it, or be proudful of it.
If so, glory would go to us instead of to God.

I don't believe EVIDENCE has any role in this discussion.

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

To BELIEVE means to OBEY.
And I do think you know this.

Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Agreed. What has this to do with doing good works?

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Agreed.
If a person does not believe,,,he cannot be saved.

One must believe and obey to be saved.

Whoever BELIEVES in Jesus is not condemned.

Are you saying that FAITH ALONE with nothing else, is sufficient for salvation?
Would you say this is true just at the moment that we become aware and become saved...
or do you believe FAITH ALONE will be sufficient for our entire walk with God?

THIS is what is being discussed.
SOLA FIDE,,,in its true meaning...is not found in the NT.

John's whole purpose in writing his gospel was so that we could know who Jesus is and what he did for sinful man:

And John also wrote his gospel because of heresies that were circulating already and to let us know that Jesus is God.

As God...we should be obeying Jesus.


Jesus said:
Matthew 16:27
27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.



Paul said:
2 Corinthians 5:10 NASB
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (ESV)

Every time we see the word BELIEVE, we have to stop and consider what is being said.
BELIEF ALONE is not in the NT.

Jesus taught that salvation was by faith alone, but he also taught that good works are evidence of one who has been saved:

Where does Jesus say that salvation is by faith alone?
I can't find it...it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Already replied re evidence.

Joh 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (ESV)

Notice that having "love for one another" is the evidence by which people can "know that you are my disciples." (See also Matt. 25:31-46.)

Atheists can have love for others.
I'm sure many atheists have done much more for humanity in general than I ever could.

I'd say that having love for one another is fruit of believing (for a Christian)
and I'd say that love covers a multitude of sins and also a multitude of help we are not able to give to others.

But God knows our heart and cannot be mocked.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes that’s exactly what obeying the Gospel is about.

Turning away from your god and your old life and following the Lord.

Turning away from our old life and following the Lord "follows" believing the gospel. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16; 1:16) You continue to confuse believing the gospel with obedience/works which "follow."

 

[JLB]

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Yes. The preaching of the cross.

Do you understand what it means to take up your cross and follow Him?

 

[GodsGrace]

To follow Jesus Christ means you obey Him.

To be led by the Spirit means you do what the Holy Spirit leds and guides you to do.

This is called going from faith to faith.


Some people just “bury” the portion of Life they have been given by the Lord and therefore reproduce nothing for Him.

They stubbornly close their ears and eyes to the Holy Spirit and cling to their self centered “soulish” life.

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:25-29


Grace teaches us…. Grace is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of grace…
The Spirit of truth the Spirit of holiness, the Spirit of Wisdom….

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.
Titus 2:11-12

The Holy Spirit is also referred to as the anointing.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


As you pointed out before, we can indeed resist the Holy Spirit.

Indeed.
It seems to me that some fear the word of God...
instead of embracing it and living in a manner pleasing to God...
or, at least, teaching this to new Christians that can easily become confused and
led astray from the Word of God --- what Jesus taught.


2 Corinthians 5:9
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

 

[JLB]

Turning away from our old life and following the Lord "follows" believing the gospel.

Obeying the Gospel is how we are saved.

You “believe” what the Gospel says, but if you don’t actually do what it says, then your believing is useless.

Repent is the command of the Gospel.

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

Obeying the Gospel is how we receive the Holy Spirit.

And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Acts 5:31

 

[mailmandan]

So true.

Promoting Heresy is no different that idolatry or sorcery or murder to the Lord, maybe worse since it affects the eternal life of gullible new impressionable believers.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

I notice these types mocking and pointing the finger at Catholics for their issues, while at the same time promoting the Heresy of Calvinism.

Very Sad.

For the record, I am not a Calvinist and I don't practice such sins listed in Galatians 5:19-21. There are a similar list of sins listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 which characterize the unrighteous.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[JLB]

It seems to me that some fear the word of God...
instead of embracing it and living in a manner pleasing to God...

That how we are set free from the deception of the lie, by knowing the truth.

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32

Knowing the truth is a result of abiding in His doctrine, not man made doctrine.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


The devil wants to keep people from the doctrine of Christ, by keeping them bound in deception by doctrines of demons, that eventually cause people to depart from the faith.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

 

[JLB]

For the record, I am not a Calvinist and I don't practice such sins listed in Galatians 5:19-21. There are a similar list of sins listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 which characterize the unrighteous.

I’m glad you are not a Calvinist. Amen.

Promoting Heresy is a work of the flesh, and will prevent a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.

 

[JLB]

There are a similar list of sins listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 which characterize the unrighteous.

Amen. So true.

And also in Ephesians…

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7